1996 SL - opinions needed! Lemon, or no?

I have a 1996 Saturn SL with 5 speed manual transmission. The car was
bought new and so far I have had to replace the following components:

water/coolant pump
radiator
transmission
clutch
fuel pump (twice)
engine temperature sensor
engine pcv (?)
engine air cleaner
engine breather
engine spark plug wiring (?)

My car is currently in the shop, and they have listed the last four
items on this list as the current problems. I am assuming that this
repair record is highly atypical. Is it? I know that manual clutches
need replacement after long use, but what about the other things?

Joel

Pump is normal, temp sensor, pcv, air cleaner and breather,plug wires all
normal to replace..
Clutch is also normal, depending on your driving.
Transmission and rad are a bit odd. I have a 95 with 190,000 klms on it. Rad
is perfect.
I also have a 2001. There is not much difference in either.

"Joel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have a 1996 Saturn SL with 5 speed manual transmission. The car was
> bought new and so far I have had to replace the following components:
>
> water/coolant pump
> radiator
> transmission
> clutch
> fuel pump (twice)
> engine temperature sensor
> engine pcv (?)
> engine air cleaner
> engine breather
> engine spark plug wiring (?)
>
> My car is currently in the shop, and they have listed the last four
> items on this list as the current problems. I am assuming that this
> repair record is highly atypical. Is it? I know that manual clutches
> need replacement after long use, but what about the other things?
>
> Joel
>

In article . com>,
says...
> I have a 1996 Saturn SL with 5 speed manual transmission. The car was
> bought new and so far I have had to replace the following components:
>
> water/coolant pump
> radiator
> transmission
> clutch
> fuel pump (twice)
> engine temperature sensor
> engine pcv (?)
> engine air cleaner
> engine breather
> engine spark plug wiring (?)
>
> My car is currently in the shop, and they have listed the last four
> items on this list as the current problems. I am assuming that this
> repair record is highly atypical. Is it? I know that manual clutches
> need replacement after long use, but what about the other things?
>
> Joel

You left us with at least one BIG question. What is the mileage of each
repair??????

1.water/coolant pump
Not to uncommon before 100k miles. Its a 96, if you havent kept up
with coolant service or the pH balance went off from contamination they
can be damaged.

2.radiator
Uncommon but then what was the problem? A hit from a stone?

3.transmission
Why/reason? and how many miles?

4.clutch
Mileage? Your experiance with manuals? Same time as transmission
replacement?

5.fuel pump (twice)
Sounds like you have a bad habbit of running on gas fumes.

6.engine temperature sensor
Not uncommon.

7.engine pcv (?)
Can be cleaned out with degreaser and reused.

8.engine air cleaner
Depends on conditions. If you work at a dusty construction site yeah
its going to need replaced a lot. You can surely check and replace this
yourself cant you??? Dirty air doesnt make cars lemons.

9.engine breather
Uh same as above.


10.engine spark plug wiring (?)
Usually every 40k you need to do the wires and every 80k you need to
do the plugs "IF" they are platinum.


With the lack of info you provided you can hardly make a case of a lemon
here. Check your owners manual for service intervals. Sounds like you
havent read it.

Fwiw, my '96 with 120,000 miles never has had the coolant changed, no hoses,
no radiator changes either. Maybe I'll give it water once in a blue moon.

However, it has had several batteries (last only about 2 years in our heat),
a top engine mount, a valve cover gasket (oil in spark plug wells), one
vaccum line somewhere behind engine, pvc (normal service item), air filters
(every 20,000 miles or so), 4 brake jobs (normal city wear), one spare tire
(Firestone that blew out badly in the trunk well in hot weather!),
alternator (90,000 miles), several EGR valve cleanings along with a few
throttle body scrubbings.

Oh, they do use oil too. Just get used to that. Maybe 2-3 of quarts
between my 4,000 mile changes.

All said, it has held up far better and more economical than the Ford's I've
had by 10 fold.

B~

"Shawn" > typed until their fingers bled,
and came up with:

> Pump is normal, temp sensor, pcv, air cleaner and breather,plug wires
> all normal to replace..

agreed, esp. if the coolant hasn't been changed. Pump is pretty hearty,
but I've replaced one on a friends '95 @ 120K mi. Temp sensor, same as
the pump. The other stuff is scheduled maint. stuff.

> Clutch is also normal, depending on your driving.

mine lasted 95K, with the 1st 55 being driven by the 1st owner(s), which
I'm all but positive was a bunch of teenagers (car came w/ 4 keys...),
and the next 40K being me flogging the car on track and the street.

> Transmission and rad are a bit odd.

Transmissions, unless you abuse the syncros or do smokey burnouts are
damn bulletproof. The 28 cent roll pin in the dif is the weak link for
wheelspin.

Radiators, well, the plastic end tanks tend to crack. I know of several
that have cracked in the exact same spot. I just replaced mine Friday.

--
Visit the Saturn Performance Club - http://www.saturnperformanceclub.com

> I have a 1996 Saturn SL with 5 speed manual transmission. The car was
> bought new and so far I have had to replace the following components:
>
> water/coolant pump
> radiator
> transmission
> clutch
> fuel pump (twice)
> engine temperature sensor
> engine pcv (?)
> engine air cleaner
> engine breather
> engine spark plug wiring (?)
>
> My car is currently in the shop, and they have listed the last four
> items on this list as the current problems. I am assuming that this
> repair record is highly atypical. Is it? I know that manual clutches
> need replacement after long use, but what about the other things?
>
> Joel

Water pump: not uncommon. I changed it on my 95 SC2 when I did the engine just
b/c it was cheap and easy. $25

Radiator: Replaced it twice. Once due to the side plastic tank cracking and
causing a leak, then the replacement rusted on the bottom and started leaking.
~$125 but I get a deal from a body shop.

Clutch: Not uncommon depending on the mileage. I would consider this a wear
item that will have to be changed on all stickshifts eventually. I replaced the
disk on mine when I did the engine(because it was apart, although the old one
wasn't even close to worn). Then again did a whole clutch job 50k miles later
at ~200k when the pressure plate fingers bent over from being worn too thin.
$55 disc - $150 kit.

Transmission: Sounds like you're hard on your car. Generally manual
transmissions don't break on their own. Parts are cheap for a stickshift if you
just fix whats wrong.

Fuel pump: Odd. Ever run it out of gas?

Temp sensor: Very common. Replaced once on my car. $12

PCV/air cleaner/breather/plug wires: All are wear items. All can be replaced
for less than $40.


You forgot to tell us the mileage on this vehicle. I'm going to hazard a guess
and say its well over 100k. Probably closer to 150k.

Your car isn't a lemon. Most of what you describe other then trans and fuel
pump are fully expected to need service on a car that age. And maybe the user
had something to do with why those went......

You left us with at least one BIG question. What is the mileage of
each
> repair??????
>
> 1.water/coolant pump
> Not to uncommon before 100k miles. Its a 96, if you havent kept up

> with coolant service or the pH balance went off from contamination
they
> can be damaged.
>
> 2.radiator
> Uncommon but then what was the problem? A hit from a stone?
>
> 3.transmission
> Why/reason? and how many miles?
>
> 4.clutch
> Mileage? Your experiance with manuals? Same time as transmission
> replacement?
>
> 5.fuel pump (twice)
> Sounds like you have a bad habbit of running on gas fumes.
>
> 6.engine temperature sensor
> Not uncommon.
>
> 7.engine pcv (?)
> Can be cleaned out with degreaser and reused.
>
> 8.engine air cleaner
> Depends on conditions. If you work at a dusty construction site
yeah
> its going to need replaced a lot. You can surely check and replace
this
> yourself cant you??? Dirty air doesnt make cars lemons.
>
> 9.engine breather
> Uh same as above.
>
>
> 10.engine spark plug wiring (?)
> Usually every 40k you need to do the wires and every 80k you need
to
> do the plugs "IF" they are platinum.
>
>
> With the lack of info you provided you can hardly make a case of a
lemon
> here. Check your owners manual for service intervals. Sounds like you

> havent read it.

I have 99k miles on it. And I have performed regular services until
they closed their facility in Marina Del Rey. Some of the repairs had
to be at their location since mechanics don't have access to some of
their parts/diagnostics.

Transmission - I do not know. I don't do much highway driving, mostly
city stop and go. I spoke to Saturn about this and such a thing is not
out of the realm of possibility.

Clutch - I was told this is fairly typical, esp. with city driving. I
am very good with the clutch, and the only cars I have ever driven were
manuals.

Pump - I have run on fumes 2 or 3 times in the car's lifetime. The
first time it happened was because of my discovery that the tank
empties before the gas meter reaches the "E". Now that I know, this has
not happened in several years.

I only listed the last 4 since that is what they just fixed - not
really part of my "case evidence".

BTW I was not trying to make a case, notice the question mark in the
subject field. I was simply asking for feedback. Thank you for yours.

Yes, cracked radiator. No smokey burnouts though.

The clutch job price you list sounds really cheap. Saturn wanted to
charge me over a grand to replace the clutch on mine. Maybe it is a big
labor cost. Who knows. As of today I got it back now it is driving
just fine.

In article
>,
"B. Peg" > wrote:

> Fwiw, my '96 with 120,000 miles never has had the coolant changed, no hoses,
> no radiator changes either. Maybe I'll give it water once in a blue moon.
>
> However, it has had several batteries (last only about 2 years in our heat),
> a top engine mount, a valve cover gasket (oil in spark plug wells), one
> vaccum line somewhere behind engine, pvc (normal service item), air filters
> (every 20,000 miles or so), 4 brake jobs (normal city wear), one spare tire
> (Firestone that blew out badly in the trunk well in hot weather!),
> alternator (90,000 miles), several EGR valve cleanings along with a few
> throttle body scrubbings.
>
> Oh, they do use oil too. Just get used to that. Maybe 2-3 of quarts
> between my 4,000 mile changes.
>
> All said, it has held up far better and more economical than the Ford's I've
> had by 10 fold.
>
> B~

yeah but looking at it sounds like a good reason to buy a Honda or
Toyota. For example, on my Toyota Corolla my alternator never failed
either, nor radiator, not the tranny, and not the fuel pump, ever, and I
drove it for 109k miles. And I really didn[t take very good care of it
either