Brakes squeal!!!!

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
>> "cavedweller" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
>>>> n.umich.edu...
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 28 May 2005, Ken Peterson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Autozone sells "nice" Chinese rotors. Next time mail order
>>>
>>>
>>> a set of
>>>
>>>>>>> Brembo's from Tire Rack.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I second that with the nice Autozone Asian rotors. I got a
>>>
>>>
>>> pair of their
>>>
>>>>>> mid to premium rotors for my 98 Voyager and they were
>>>
>>>
>>> shrink-wrapped and
>>>
>>>>>> top quality! Cheap too... less than $25 a piece.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) You missed the sarcasm.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) It's nice for you that you only spent $25 apiece on rotors,
>>>
>>>
>>> but I will
>>>
>>>>> not entrust my life *OR* yours to Chinese brake parts on my
>>>
>>>
>>> car.
>>>
>>>> I've used lots of cheapo chinese rotors in my cars since I don't
>>>
>>>
>>> turn
>>>
>>>> rotors, just
>>>> throw them away if they are grooved. The only difference
>>>
>>>
>>> between the cheap
>>>
>>>> chinese
>>>> rotors and the better rotors is the quality of the steel, the
>>>
>>>
>>> chinese rotors
>>>
>>>> aren't
>>>> heat treated to the point that they will stand up to a lot of
>>>
>>>
>>> heat, thus
>>>
>>>> they are prone to
>>>> warping. Otherwise the machining quality is generally very
>>>
>>>
>>> good.
>>>
>>>> However, there is a trick to using these rotors. Chinese cheapo
>>>
>>>
>>> rotors work
>>>
>>>> fine
>>>> if you learn how to brake properly. And braking properly means
>>>
>>>
>>> driving
>>>
>>>> properly.
>>>> That means when you see a stoplight up ahead, you let off on the
>>>
>>>
>>> gas and
>>>
>>>> coast to
>>>> the stop, only braking gently near the end. You don't floor it
>>>
>>>
>>> until you
>>>
>>>> get within
>>>> 100 feet of the stoplight and then slam on the brakes. Another
>>>
>>>
>>> thing you
>>>
>>>> don't do
>>>> that I see people doing all the time is drive around with their
>>>
>>>
>>> brakes on
>>>
>>>> practically all
>>>> the time. I see this on the freeway every day. People nose up
>>>
>>>
>>> to the car
>>>
>>>> in front of
>>>> them until they are tailgating on his ass then he slows down a
>>>
>>>
>>> little bit
>>>
>>>> and they
>>>> have to brake. Whereas I let a good 3-4 seconds of distance
>>>
>>>
>>> from the car in
>>>
>>>> front of me, and if he brakes quite often I simply let up on the
>>>
>>>
>>> gas and
>>>
>>>> have plenty
>>>> of space to coast down until I'm matching his speed again.
>>>>
>>>> The harder and longer you brake the more kinetic energy is
>>>
>>>
>>> dumped into the
>>>
>>>> brakes
>>>> and the hotter and hotter they get. And also the more fuel you
>>>
>>>
>>> waste.
>>>
>>>> Since the
>>>> average American driver doesen't appear to understand this, no
>>>
>>>
>>> wonder so
>>>
>>>> many of
>>>> them complain about warped rotors.
>>>>
>>>> Ted
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Too bad you spoiled an reasonable treatise with a foray into
>>> metallurgy. Rotors aren't made of steel.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes you are right, for stockers, however:
>>
>> http://www.wilwood.com/Products/002-...-DMS/index.asp
>>
>>
>>> Heat treatment isn't
>>> done to provide heat resistance, it's done to provide enhanced
>>> properties....and it isn't done on rotors anyway.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Your right, what was I thinking! I was too caught up in the issue of not
>> creating the heat to begin with I'm afraid.
>>
>> However, while stock rotors may not be heat treated, heat treating is
>> in fact, done on some rotors, see he
>>
>> From:
>>
>> http://www.21stcenturymusclecars.com/brakeeradi.asp
>>
>> "These rotors feature increased "mass" or "weight" in the "fire path"
>> which
>> is the point of pad contact, along with curved and directional vanes,
>> combined with balancing and heat treating, ensure EradiSpeedT rotors "
>> -------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>
>> Ted
>>
>
> I remember a couple years ago when I was toying with the idea of putting
> together a "showroom stock" VW (before I figured out that I just
> couldn't afford to do it right, and it would have to be my daily driver)
> that cryogenically treated rotors were the, ahem, hot ticket. I'm
> curious if a) anyone has any experience with them and do they live up to
> the hype and b) would it be worthwhile to have a set of rotors frozen
> for a regular use passenger car that has a rotor warping problem?
>
> nate

I was just getting ready to post these two links in response to Ted's
post, when you beat me to it:

http://www.frozenrotors.com/

http://www.300below.com/site/home.html

I have used both their products (they both pretty much use Raybestos
rotors that they run thru their cryo process). Presently I have Frozen
Rotor (Diversified Cryogenics) front rotors on my '99 Concorde (rear
brakes on LH cars are 99% problem-free with no special efforts or products).

LH cars are very prone to brake vibration - I have many theories on why,
and not all are related to rotor warping. They actually do use cryo
rotors in racing. They wouldn't without good reason. It is clear that
cryo treatment does change the properties of metal. They prolong the
life of welding tips and engine parts (in extreme conditions).

Anyway, the Frozen Rotors apps. engineer also talked me into a set of
Performance Friction 'Z-Rated™' pads (very reasonably priced:
http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/pad_type.htm). I can tell you
that the combination is working *very* well for me (I'm presently
experiencing the longest period of totally vibration-free brakes I've
had with this car). Brakes are absolutely smooth operating. To be
honest, I cannot tell you how much pads play a part in vibration-free
brakes and how much rotors play - that gets back to my theories of the
various real-world causes of brake vibration, at least as related to LH
cars. I can say that the combination of the Frozen Rotors and the PF
Z-Rated pads has done the trick for my Concorde (80 mile daily commute).
Would I get the same results with the PF pads and non-treated rotors?
Can't say.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
> > Too bad you spoiled an reasonable treatise with a foray into
> > metallurgy. Rotors aren't made of steel.
>
> Yes you are right, for stockers, however:

Certainly, see below.

>
> http://www.wilwood.com/Products/002-...-DMS/index.asp
>
> > Heat treatment isn't
> > done to provide heat resistance, it's done to provide enhanced
> > properties....and it isn't done on rotors anyway.
> >
>
> Your right, what was I thinking! I was too caught up in the issue of not
> creating the heat to begin with I'm afraid.
>
> However, while stock rotors may not be heat treated, heat treating is
> in fact, done on some rotors, see he
>
> From:
>
> http://www.21stcenturymusclecars.com/brakeeradi.asp
>
> "These rotors feature increased "mass" or "weight" in the "fire path"
which
> is the point of pad contact, along with curved and directional vanes,
> combined with balancing and heat treating, ensure EradiSpeedT rotors "
> -------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
> Ted
>
>
"Stocker" is understood......I only offered the comment within the scope
of r.a.m.c. You may have noticed the inappropiate preposition "an" in my
original post...I had used the word "excellent" initially but then decided
that was going a little too far.

"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...
>> > I remember a couple years ago when I was toying with the idea of
putting
> > together a "showroom stock" VW (before I figured out that I just
> > couldn't afford to do it right, and it would have to be my daily driver)
> > that cryogenically treated rotors were the, ahem, hot ticket. I'm
> > curious if a) anyone has any experience with them and do they live up to
> > the hype and b) would it be worthwhile to have a set of rotors frozen
> > for a regular use passenger car that has a rotor warping problem?
> >
> > nate
>
> I was just getting ready to post these two links in response to Ted's
> post, when you beat me to it:
>
> http://www.frozenrotors.com/
>
> http://www.300below.com/site/home.html
>
<much clipping>

me results with the PF pads and non-treated rotors?
> Can't say.
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> adddress with the letter 'x

Cryogenic treatments for steels are valid when the objective is to eliminate
retained austenite and drive the martensitic (hardening) transformation to
completion. The anture of the mechanism and to what extent it's effective
in production rotor material (grey cast iron) isn't clear to me.....

cavedweller wrote:

> Cryogenic treatments for steels are valid when the objective is to eliminate
> retained austenite and drive the martensitic (hardening) transformation to
> completion. The anture of the mechanism and to what extent it's effective
> in production rotor material (grey cast iron) isn't clear to me.....

They claim that carbide precipitates out, with one result being
increased hardness, slower wear, and more stable and uniform structure.
Maybe that's another way of saying what you did about the retained
austenite (it's been 30 years since I had the metallurgy courses in the
engineering curiculum in which all that stuff was covered in detail).

"Anture"? Is that a typo - I'm not familiar with that word. Never mind
- just figured it out - "nature". Got it.

Anyway, you might delve into some of the technical pages on the 300
Below and Diversified Cryo sites. What I read made sense with what I do
remember from my engineering courses regarding grain structure, phas
transition, etc. You appear to have the right technical background for
critical reading of same.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

Bill Putney wrote:

> ...phas transition, etc...

Typos are contagious. "phase"

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...
> cavedweller wrote:
>
> > Cryogenic treatments for steels are valid when the objective is to
eliminate
> > retained austenite and drive the martensitic (hardening) transformation
to
> > completion. The anture of the mechanism and to what extent it's
effective
> > in production rotor material (grey cast iron) isn't clear to me.....
>
> They claim that carbide precipitates out, with one result being
> increased hardness, slower wear, and more stable and uniform structure.

Steels and irons all have carbides in varying form and degree.
After all, the equilibrium system is iron/iron carbide.(Fe3C)
> Maybe that's another way of saying what you did about the retained
> austenite
Nope.
(it's been 30 years since I had the metallurgy courses in the
> engineering curiculum in which all that stuff was covered in detail).
>
> "Anture"? Is that a typo - I'm not familiar with that word. Never mind
> - just figured it out - "nature". Got it.
>
> Anyway, you might delve into some of the technical pages on the 300
> Below and Diversified Cryo sites. What I read made sense with what I do
> remember from my engineering courses regarding grain structure, phas
> transition, etc. You appear to have the right technical background for
> critical reading of same.
Yep
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> adddress with the letter 'x')