1967 corvette convertible (fair price)

All, thanks for taking time to respond to my email. The asking price is
$ 45K. Here is more information on the car:

1) FRAME OFF RESTORATION
2) PAINTED ORIGINAL COLOR
3) NO HARD TOP
4) P/S
5) P/B
6) VINYL INTERIOR, NO HEAD REST
7) NO AC, P/W
8) 4 SPEED MANUAL
9) FACTORY SIDE EXHAUST
10) I BELIEVE THE ORIGINAL ENGINE WAS A 327, RED LINE ON TACH LOOKS
LIKE 57
11) BODY MODIFICATION, IT HAS A BIG BLOCK HOOD

Thanks,
Mark

> All, thanks for taking time to respond to my email. The asking price is
> $ 45K. Here is more information on the car:
>
> 1) FRAME OFF RESTORATION
> 2) PAINTED ORIGINAL COLOR
> 3) NO HARD TOP
> 4) P/S
> 5) P/B
> 6) VINYL INTERIOR, NO HEAD REST
> 7) NO AC, P/W
> 8) 4 SPEED MANUAL
> 9) FACTORY SIDE EXHAUST
> 10) I BELIEVE THE ORIGINAL ENGINE WAS A 327, RED LINE ON TACH LOOKS
> LIKE 57
> 11) BODY MODIFICATION, IT HAS A BIG BLOCK HOOD
>
> Thanks,
> Mark

According to Rogers Corvette's trivia ..............................

In late February/early March, 1967, some small blocks received the big block
hood due to an manufacturing problem with the small block hood mold. These
were not given the hood stripe.

enjoy your new car
kickstart

The big block hood on the small blocks from the factory is something started
by Noland Adams in his book. He found evidence that the factory had a
problem with the hood mold and so would substitute big block hoods with no
stripe until the problem was solved.

However, there is a vocal group in NCRS that insists no evidence of this
actually occurring has been found. The paperwork to do it existed but
paperwork doesn't prove that work was actually done. There are many
engineering change requests and orders through any year that never actually
get implemented by the factory. Don't expect it to be judged nicely, though,
as you will need prove it is real, as it is not Typical Factory Production,
the main guide of NCRS restoration.

The Corvette that started Noland to look for this or that he used for
confirmation is Roy Braatz's blue '67 coupe 194377S112345. (How is that for
a number - 12345?)

Roy is the second owner since WAAAAY back and knew the car when new. The
big block hood was on it and no evidence of a small block hood ever being
mounted exists. If someone changed the hood, evidence of the small block
hood mounting would still exist.

The Corvette was recently for sale on eBay at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RK%3AMEWA%3AIT

Unfortunately, it is the only example that has not been proven to be fake or
changed. However, one example doesn't mean they actually did this for a few
days. It could have been a COPO request or some other special build that
has been long forgotten. That doesn't discount this car as really being a
factory big block hood small block. I believe Roy and the car. However,
many argue this does not mean others were built. If a few more examples
were found, then the emergency change could be verified, but the serial
numbers would have to be within a few hundred of Roy's.

Two problems exist as a result:

1. Many sellers try to say their small block car with the big block hood is
original so you will pay more. Not one has been proven true yet except
Roy's, and he wasn't trying to sell until this year, yet it was judged years
ago.

2. Any chance of finding a factory big block hood small block car is
probably non-existent as those in good enough shape to verify originality
have probably been restored to the "correct" configuration, thus eliminating
the few examples around. Kind of like the Planet of the Apes (the original)
where the navigator had his brain operated on.

So bottom line, did they or did they not build some 1967 Corvette small
blocks with the big block hood?

I think they did, but only a few, but I think that finding one of them
besides Roy's is probably not going to happen. So don't get your hopes up
over a Corvette with a '67 big block hood. Thousands of people put them on
because they looked so good.


"Kickstart" > wrote in message
m...
>
>
>> All, thanks for taking time to respond to my email. The asking price is
>> $ 45K. Here is more information on the car:
>>
>> 1) FRAME OFF RESTORATION
>> 2) PAINTED ORIGINAL COLOR
>> 3) NO HARD TOP
>> 4) P/S
>> 5) P/B
>> 6) VINYL INTERIOR, NO HEAD REST
>> 7) NO AC, P/W
>> 8) 4 SPEED MANUAL
>> 9) FACTORY SIDE EXHAUST
>> 10) I BELIEVE THE ORIGINAL ENGINE WAS A 327, RED LINE ON TACH LOOKS
>> LIKE 57
>> 11) BODY MODIFICATION, IT HAS A BIG BLOCK HOOD
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark
>
> According to Rogers Corvette's trivia ..............................
>
> In late February/early March, 1967, some small blocks received the big
> block hood due to an manufacturing problem with the small block hood mold.
> These were not given the hood stripe.
>
> enjoy your new car
> kickstart
>

> The big block hood on the small blocks from the factory is something
> started
> by Noland Adams in his book.

What ever .....
just enjoy the car and **** NCRS
I owned corvettes before there was an NCRS
they can call themselves the powers that be for all I care,
but cars were made to be driven. enjoyed and IMPROVED
Relics belong in museums with mummies and bones
>> kickstart
>>
>
>

"Kickstart" > very wisely wrote in message
...
> What ever .....
> just enjoy the car and **** NCRS
> I owned corvettes before there was an NCRS
> they can call themselves the powers that be for all I care,
> but cars were made to be driven. enjoyed and IMPROVED
> Relics belong in museums with mummies and bones
>>> kickstart
>>>

Well stated Kickstart! Trailers are for horses, not for cars and certainly
not for Vettes.

A rather "appropriate" remark.

Mark asked for a value of a Corvette he is looking at. You gave him some
information from a web site that copied it from a book, which while there is
paperwork to say it should happen, only one verified example says it ever
did.

Maybe he should buy my rare 1983 Corvette. There is a lot of paperwork that
says they were going to build them. We know they only built the pilot cars.

If Mark accepts that small blocks came from the factory with big block
hoods, and does not know the information behind such a statement, then he is
ill-equipped to deal with sellers who tell him that theirs is one of those
"rare big block hooded small block cars" and can con him into either paying
too high because it is rare or paying to high because it isn't stock.

Not that there is anything wrong with non-stock, but the market value is not
there. We have had this discussion before. Change things from original,
price goes down. It may well be a better car, like Bob G's '72 with the hot
327, and I personally have had and like the big block hood on a car, but the
market price is less.

Why you decided to make a comment about NCRS and museums, I'm not sure,
other than you apparently are not showing the maximum level of knowledge.
NCRS actually is one of the few restoration groups that promotes DRIVING the
cars. They have road tours, road trips, and they credit points toward
judging for the miles driven to the event. I think you mean NCCB
(Bloomington Gold) who are mainly trailer queens.

The museum that they did push to start was the National Corvette Museum in
Bowling Green. Are you saying that the NCM is a bad idea and we should get
rid of or boycott it? I see you have a Tampa Bay Road Runner account. Have
you ever been down to the Cunningham Museum in Naples? Too bad it closed,
but maybe there are too many anti-museum people down your way.

Granted NCRS can be too anal about a lot of things, from whether there is an
"A", "D", or "T" in your valve cover bolts, to the fonts on stamp pad and
more. But if you are getting ready to lay out $40,000 to $100,000 and need
to know which is the appropriate amount, should he trust the information you
give or the information NCRS has accumulated over 31 years AND documented?

As to Stingray jumping in here on this, sounds awful funny attacking an
originality group from a guy who on 10/17/05 attacked a 1976 Corvette for
being unoriginal with a Daytona kit on it. Seems he doesn't like original or
modified.

BTW, I don't belong to NCRS.


"Kickstart" > wrote in message
...
>
>> The big block hood on the small blocks from the factory is something
>> started
>> by Noland Adams in his book.
>
> What ever .....
> just enjoy the car and **** NCRS
> I owned corvettes before there was an NCRS
> they can call themselves the powers that be for all I care,
> but cars were made to be driven. enjoyed and IMPROVED
> Relics belong in museums with mummies and bones
>>> kickstart
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

> Mark asked for a value of a Corvette he is looking at. You gave him some
> information from a web site that copied it from a book

thats all I did

> Maybe he should buy my rare 1983 Corvette.

you claiming to have an 83?

>
> If Mark accepts that small blocks came from the factory with big block
> hoods,

the original Mark has never said if he is looking for an investmwnt or a
driver

> We have had this discussion before. Change things from original, price
> goes down.

"WE" havent had this conversation because I dont agree with it
I dont have my head buried in the sand, I realize there are nuts that think
a car is an investment
My 79 has a,ot of changes and I drive it, I enjoy it and I have greatly
improved or from what the factory made in 79
I think it is worth more than a stock 79


> NCRS actually is one of the few restoration groups that promotes DRIVING
> the I think you mean NCCB (Bloomington Gold) who are mainly trailer
> queens.

2 different groups
same mentality
I have been to too many car shows that people in brand new C-5 and now 6's
show up with their lawn chairs and super clean never been driven cars with
bolt on doodads
That does nothing for me The same for older never driven "collectables". I
want to see a car that was driven there and has had something done to make
it better that before


> They did push to start was the National Corvette Museum in Bowling Green.
> Are you saying that the NCM is a bad idea and we should get rid of or
> boycott it?

I was there for the ground breaking cerimony, It's a fine idea and a good
thing.
I have been to the Cairo museum in Egypt too. Nice place for a mummy

>
> Granted NCRS can be too anal about a lot of things, from whether there is
> an "A", "D", or "T" in your valve cover bolts, to the fonts on stamp pad
> and more. But if you are getting ready to lay out $40,000 to $100,000 and
> need to know which is the appropriate amount, should he trust the
> information you give or the information NCRS has accumulated over 31 years
> AND documented?
>
> As to Stingray jumping in here on this, sounds awful funny attacking an
> originality

I see he has his views too and is entitled to his tastes

As far as investors are concerned I suppose they have a pirpose

> BTW, I don't belong to NCRS.

neither do I,but I think you knew that.

I can generally agree with you, but if Mark is coming to a news group for
investment advice .......... ? He must be a moron

kickstart

"Kickstart" > wrote in message
...
>> Maybe he should buy my rare 1983 Corvette.
>
> you claiming to have an 83?

Sarcastic comment. However, you look at enough ads, there are people who
advertise their '84 model Corvette as a 1983, because they bought it in the
'83 model year. It is still an '84 model, though.



>> We have had this discussion before. Change things from original, price
>> goes down.
>
> "WE" havent had this conversation because I dont agree with it

"We" meaning this news group.


> I dont have my head buried in the sand, I realize there are nuts that
> think a car is an investment
All cars are an investment - an investment of time, energy, and money.
However, most only think in terms of financial investments, and in that
case, specifically in one of increasign value. I have not said that.

To many, new cars are a good "investment". They buy a car at $30,000, drive
it for 2 or 3 years, then sell for $20,000. Financial investment is a wash -
a loss of $20,000. However, in energy and time, they may be very good,
since they had a reliable car that they could drive anywhere, coudl trust to
run without problems, and trusted to keep their family safe.

Those after a financial investment only are often fooling themselves.



> I have been to too many car shows that people in brand new C-5 and now
> 6's show up with their lawn chairs and super clean never been driven cars
> with bolt on doodads
> That does nothing for me The same for older never driven "collectables". I
> want to see a car that was driven there and has had something done to make
> it better that before

There again, lack of your information on a group surfaces. NCRS gives
driving points for driving to a show. Since getting all the correct parts
is often impossible, many do drive their cars to the events to gain the
driving points to offset the loss of points over missing or incorrect parts.

I don't mean driving from the hotel parking lot, I mean driving from often
several states away. Grant, many trailer, but many do drive. When is the
last time you drove several states away for a show/event or even out of the
country, like many did to Windsor, Canada?





> As far as investors are concerned I suppose they have a pirpose

Many look at them as the biggest problem with our hobby. Before all the
investors, we had Corvettes ranging $2000 to $8000 or so. Now the prices are
much higher. However, some of that would happen regardless. Or the
opposite, they would have simply disappeared from the hobby. In cars that
investors don't seem to chase, like many older Britsh cars, cars like
Bricklin, DeLorean, and others, the price has stayed low. Easy for an
enthusiast to buy, however, there is no support market. Where do you buy
parts for a Bricklin? Granted, there are special groups, but you may have
to search a year to get a part to make your Bricklin run right, but you can
buy any part for a Corvette (if you are not after some rare restoration part
but only a functional part) the same day and rarely more than a 3 day
shipping time.



> I can generally agree with you, but if Mark is coming to a news group for
> investment advice .......... ? He must be a moron

I don't know if he was really here for investment advice, but simply pricing
information. He said, "I am trying to determine what
is a fair price to offer."

In that case, knowing the way the market price goes is important because no
one wants to pay too much. Like that 1976 Corvette Daytona. Someone may
think it is great, but $20,000 great? Maybe if he makes a few mill a year
and $20,000 to him is like $100 to me. But most buyers need to know the
market value, how much it is worth, what they can expect to resell, and so
on, to make an educated buy on the car. Would you recommend buying a
Corvette for $70,000 only to discover it is worth $50,000? Even if he
intended to never sell, and drove it daily and never showed it except at
Sonic or A&W on Friday night, that would be a foolish move.

And like it or not, the prices of most of these cars are such that price,
market value, and originality are all very important to know what to buy and
not buy. Even for those not wanting an original car, you need to determine
originality because the seller will use originality to make the price
higher. Every day on eBay you see people talking about how the car is
"rare", an "investment", "easily restored", and "99% original" and so on.
Yet the ability to determine originality will let you see that many of these
are often very unoriginal, and thus the asking prices are too high.

You are in a lucky place with your '79. They are to an extent like the
midyears and solid axles in the early '70s. Prices low, not increasing, and
affordable. With no market increases, hot rodding, customizing, and so on
affected no price except to occasionally increase it. This left owners to
enjoy their cars in any way they wanted. That is pretty much true with the
'74 to '89 Corvettes. But the other years, that isn't the case, and this
'67 that Mark is looking at is about the peak of the cars that must be
checked very, very well to keep from overspending.

Of course, he could be full of smoke and simply trying to get info for his
intended investment.

"Tom in Missouri" > obviously didn't read either of
Stingray's referenced posts when "Tom in Missouri" wrote in message
nk.net...
>snip
> As to Stingray jumping in here on this, sounds awful funny attacking an
> originality group from a guy who on 10/17/05 attacked a 1976 Corvette for
> being unoriginal with a Daytona kit on it. Seems he doesn't like original
> or modified.
> "Kickstart" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>> The big block hood on the small blocks from the factory is something
>>> started
>>> by Noland Adams in his book.
>>
>> What ever .....
>> just enjoy the car and **** NCRS
>> I owned corvettes before there was an NCRS
>> they can call themselves the powers that be for all I care,
>> but cars were made to be driven. enjoyed and IMPROVED
>> Relics belong in museums with mummies and bones
>>>> kickstart
>>>>
"StingRay" > wrote in message
news
> Well stated Kickstart! Trailers are for horses, not for cars and certainly
> not for Vettes.

Tom, you are what is commonly referred to as a selective or poor listener.
Or perhaps you just have a short memory/attention span. I wasn't attacking
an originality group whatsoever. I reposted my latest post for your
benefit. It reads "Trailers are for horses, not for cars and certainly not
for Vettes". Now Tom. just where was I "attacking an originality group" in
that statement?? Are you implying that original cars must be trailered??? If
you've ever been to any major show, you'd know that many custom vehicles are
also trailered, not just originals!?

Now as for calling me "a guy who on 10/17/05 attacked a 1976 Corvette for
being unoriginal with a Daytona kit on it.", you are way off base on that
comment. First of all I wasn't "attacking a 1976 Corvette for being
unoriginal". I was merely commenting on what I considered an absolutely
horrible hack job. Let me quote those comments as well, to refresh your
apparent poor memory:

"I was just surfing the web and came across the attached abomination.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however, IMHO, this car would
rank amongst the most gawd-awful and overpriced cars I have ever seen.

http://www.sylmar.ca/autoville/inven...aydaytona.html "

Now Tom, you may note that I commented that everyone is entitled to their
opinion and I stated that in my humble opinion this car would rank amongst
the most gawd-awful and overpriced cars I have ever seen. Since you never
joined that thread Tom, it occurs to me that perhaps you thought that the
Daytona kit car was a thing of beauty and were offended by my comments in
that thread. Although, if you think it was, you really should have another
look. Gosh, I hope that wasn't your car!

In any event, Tom, neither of my comments were contradictory and I stand
behind both of my comments:

1) That '76 "IMHO, . . . would rank amongst the most gawd-awful and
overpriced cars I have ever seen."

2) "Trailers are for horses, not for cars and certainly not for Vettes."

"Pontificating Tom in Missouri" > wrote on ad nauseum in
message nk.net...

Tom, you have said a great deal of nothing in your lengthy response to
Kickstart. In a nutshell, "market value" of anything is the price that a
willing seller is willing to sell for and a willing buyer is willing to pay
at any given point in time. Period! Your opinion of market value is
simply that - your opinion. Your opinion and a buck will buy you a cheap cup
of coffee. ;-) Mid-year Vettes are a perfect example of vehicles with wide
market values. Your opinion of value and my opinion of value mean nothing,
unless we are the buyer or seller and a sale is consumated. We have all seen
mid-years sell at auction for far more than we thought they were worth, but
Tom, they sold for market value at the time and day they sold. End of
discussion.

You also commented that "All cars are an investment - an investment of time,
energy, and money. However, most only think in terms of financial
investments, and in that case, specifically in one of increasign value. I
have not said that."

Tom, all cars are indeed an investment and in most cases a poor one. They
are an investment principally because you exchange one asset (cash) for
another (car). If you accept that a car is an investment, then you must
accept that by its nature, it is a "financial" investment. Your other
hogwash about it being "an investment of time, energy," is one of those
catch-all phrases that could be used with any investment. It takes time and
energy to buy equities on the stock market too. So what! Quit your
pontificating and come on back to earth Tom! *lol* Vehicles are generally a
poor financial investment as measured by ROI, ROE and they are certainly
subject to heavy depreciation the moment you drive off the lot.


> "Kickstart" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Maybe he should buy my rare 1983 Corvette.
>>
>> you claiming to have an 83?
>
> Sarcastic comment. However, you look at enough ads, there are people who
> advertise their '84 model Corvette as a 1983, because they bought it in
> the '83 model year. It is still an '84 model, though.
>
>
>
>>> We have had this discussion before. Change things from original, price
>>> goes down.
>>
>> "WE" havent had this conversation because I dont agree with it
>
> "We" meaning this news group.
>
>
>> I dont have my head buried in the sand, I realize there are nuts that
>> think a car is an investment
> All cars are an investment - an investment of time, energy, and money.
> However, most only think in terms of financial investments, and in that
> case, specifically in one of increasign value. I have not said that.
>
> To many, new cars are a good "investment". They buy a car at $30,000,
> drive it for 2 or 3 years, then sell for $20,000. Financial investment is
> a wash - a loss of $20,000. However, in energy and time, they may be very
> good, since they had a reliable car that they could drive anywhere, coudl
> trust to run without problems, and trusted to keep their family safe.
>
> Those after a financial investment only are often fooling themselves.
>
>
>
>> I have been to too many car shows that people in brand new C-5 and now
>> 6's show up with their lawn chairs and super clean never been driven cars
>> with bolt on doodads
>> That does nothing for me The same for older never driven "collectables".
>> I want to see a car that was driven there and has had something done to
>> make it better that before
>
> There again, lack of your information on a group surfaces. NCRS gives
> driving points for driving to a show. Since getting all the correct parts
> is often impossible, many do drive their cars to the events to gain the
> driving points to offset the loss of points over missing or incorrect
> parts.
>
> I don't mean driving from the hotel parking lot, I mean driving from often
> several states away. Grant, many trailer, but many do drive. When is the
> last time you drove several states away for a show/event or even out of
> the country, like many did to Windsor, Canada?
>
>
>
>
>
>> As far as investors are concerned I suppose they have a pirpose
>
> Many look at them as the biggest problem with our hobby. Before all the
> investors, we had Corvettes ranging $2000 to $8000 or so. Now the prices
> are much higher. However, some of that would happen regardless. Or the
> opposite, they would have simply disappeared from the hobby. In cars that
> investors don't seem to chase, like many older Britsh cars, cars like
> Bricklin, DeLorean, and others, the price has stayed low. Easy for an
> enthusiast to buy, however, there is no support market. Where do you buy
> parts for a Bricklin? Granted, there are special groups, but you may have
> to search a year to get a part to make your Bricklin run right, but you
> can buy any part for a Corvette (if you are not after some rare
> restoration part but only a functional part) the same day and rarely more
> than a 3 day shipping time.
>
>
>
>> I can generally agree with you, but if Mark is coming to a news group for
>> investment advice .......... ? He must be a moron
>
> I don't know if he was really here for investment advice, but simply
> pricing information. He said, "I am trying to determine what
> is a fair price to offer."
>
> In that case, knowing the way the market price goes is important because
> no one wants to pay too much. Like that 1976 Corvette Daytona. Someone may
> think it is great, but $20,000 great? Maybe if he makes a few mill a year
> and $20,000 to him is like $100 to me. But most buyers need to know the
> market value, how much it is worth, what they can expect to resell, and so
> on, to make an educated buy on the car. Would you recommend buying a
> Corvette for $70,000 only to discover it is worth $50,000? Even if he
> intended to never sell, and drove it daily and never showed it except at
> Sonic or A&W on Friday night, that would be a foolish move.
>
> And like it or not, the prices of most of these cars are such that price,
> market value, and originality are all very important to know what to buy
> and not buy. Even for those not wanting an original car, you need to
> determine originality because the seller will use originality to make the
> price higher. Every day on eBay you see people talking about how the car
> is "rare", an "investment", "easily restored", and "99% original" and so
> on. Yet the ability to determine originality will let you see that many of
> these are often very unoriginal, and thus the asking prices are too high.
>
> You are in a lucky place with your '79. They are to an extent like the
> midyears and solid axles in the early '70s. Prices low, not increasing,
> and affordable. With no market increases, hot rodding, customizing, and so
> on affected no price except to occasionally increase it. This left owners
> to enjoy their cars in any way they wanted. That is pretty much true with
> the '74 to '89 Corvettes. But the other years, that isn't the case, and
> this '67 that Mark is looking at is about the peak of the cars that must
> be checked very, very well to keep from overspending.
>
> Of course, he could be full of smoke and simply trying to get info for his
> intended investment.
>
>