Another jurisdiction that likes the "zipper"

"M. Hale" > wrote:
>
> Scott M. Kozel wrote:
>
> > This aerial image shows it nicely --
> > http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ima...40&Y=21525&W=1
> >
> > I would be interested in seeing what the original configuration looked
> > like.
>
> If you zoom out a step or two and follow what looks like a rail line
> east and then slightly northeast from the end of the SE/SW freeway you
> can trace the original route of the Barney Circle Freeway. The Barney
> Circle Freeway would have connected the SE/SW Freeway with
> DC295/Keniworth Avenue and provided a freeway route downtown for those
> coming in from the north. In the aerial photos note the stub ramp on
> the DC 295 bridge over the rail lines that would connect to the Barney
> Circle Freeway had it been built.

Indeed, I did just that yesterday, zooming out to see the whole area.
The empty strip of right-of-way extending from the end of the freeway,
along the railroad line, to the Anacostia River, is the unused
right-of-way that was acquired in the 1960s for the I-295 East Leg of
the Inner Loop, which would have looped along the west side of the river
and connected to proposed I-95 in the Brookland area.

A current proposal is to build northerly ramps where the 11th Street
Bridge connects to the Anacostia Freeway, completing all movements at
that interchange; but IMO the Barney Circle Freeway wouldn't have cost
much more to build than the current proposal, would have had minimal
right-of-way impacts, and would have provided better traffic service
since it would bypass 2 miles of the Anacostia Freeway compared to the
current interchange- completion proposal.

--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com

Scott M. Kozel wrote:
> "M. Hale" > wrote:
>
>>Scott M. Kozel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This aerial image shows it nicely --
>>>http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ima...40&Y=21525&W=1
>>>
>>>I would be interested in seeing what the original configuration looked
>>>like.
>>
>>If you zoom out a step or two and follow what looks like a rail line
>>east and then slightly northeast from the end of the SE/SW freeway you
>>can trace the original route of the Barney Circle Freeway. The Barney
>>Circle Freeway would have connected the SE/SW Freeway with
>>DC295/Keniworth Avenue and provided a freeway route downtown for those
>>coming in from the north. In the aerial photos note the stub ramp on
>>the DC 295 bridge over the rail lines that would connect to the Barney
>>Circle Freeway had it been built.
>
>
> Indeed, I did just that yesterday, zooming out to see the whole area.
> The empty strip of right-of-way extending from the end of the freeway,
> along the railroad line, to the Anacostia River, is the unused
> right-of-way that was acquired in the 1960s for the I-295 East Leg of
> the Inner Loop, which would have looped along the west side of the river
> and connected to proposed I-95 in the Brookland area.
>
> A current proposal is to build northerly ramps where the 11th Street
> Bridge connects to the Anacostia Freeway, completing all movements at
> that interchange; but IMO the Barney Circle Freeway wouldn't have cost
> much more to build than the current proposal, would have had minimal
> right-of-way impacts, and would have provided better traffic service
> since it would bypass 2 miles of the Anacostia Freeway compared to the
> current interchange- completion proposal.
>

I still don't understand the issue with "finishing" the Pennsylvania
Ave. interchange - by all means go with one of these other proposals but
how difficult would it really be to build the "missing" ramps? More
connectivity could only reduce congestion, one would think... Unless as
the other poster said they are really going to demo the last bit of the
SE freeway...

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel > wrote in
news:1120694182.6328a397f283878c7015e6b0098d2b59@t eranews:

> I still don't understand the issue with "finishing" the Pennsylvania
> Ave. interchange - by all means go with one of these other proposals
> but how difficult would it really be to build the "missing" ramps?
> More connectivity could only reduce congestion, one would think...
> Unless as the other poster said they are really going to demo the last
> bit of the SE freeway...

At least with the Barney Circle Freeway, its been political. DC doesn't
want to spend its money and in trun benefit only commuters from out of
state. A corrolary to all this is the off and on talk of a commuter tax
in DC. I would guess that the issues with the PA Avenue project would
be similar.

Seems to me that I'd want to get the commuters into town to work because
they in turn spend money in shops and restaurants before and after work
and during lunch. Oh well, in 33 years of living in the DC Area (MD
then VA), I cannot explain DC politics. Heck, the voters in one of the
DC wards put Marion Barry, a convicted drug user, back on the city
council. That proves anything is possible in DC!

Mike

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:
>
> "M. Hale" > wrote:
> >
> > Scott M. Kozel wrote:
> >
> > > This aerial image shows it nicely --
> > > http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ima...40&Y=21525&W=1
> > >
> > > I would be interested in seeing what the original configuration looked
> > > like.
> >
> > If you zoom out a step or two and follow what looks like a rail line
> > east and then slightly northeast from the end of the SE/SW freeway you
> > can trace the original route of the Barney Circle Freeway. The Barney
> > Circle Freeway would have connected the SE/SW Freeway with
> > DC295/Keniworth Avenue and provided a freeway route downtown for those
> > coming in from the north. In the aerial photos note the stub ramp on
> > the DC 295 bridge over the rail lines that would connect to the Barney
> > Circle Freeway had it been built.
>
> Indeed, I did just that yesterday, zooming out to see the whole area.
> The empty strip of right-of-way extending from the end of the freeway,
> along the railroad line, to the Anacostia River, is the unused
> right-of-way that was acquired in the 1960s for the I-295 East Leg of
> the Inner Loop, which would have looped along the west side of the river
> and connected to proposed I-95 in the Brookland area.
>
> A current proposal is to build northerly ramps where the 11th Street
> Bridge connects to the Anacostia Freeway, completing all movements at
> that interchange; but IMO the Barney Circle Freeway wouldn't have cost
> much more to build than the current proposal, would have had minimal
> right-of-way impacts, and would have provided better traffic service
> since it would bypass 2 miles of the Anacostia Freeway compared to the
> current interchange- completion proposal.

If you pan further to the northeast you can see the taper on the
southbound side of the recently rebuilt DC-295 bridge over Norfork
Southern Benning Yard where the east end of the westbound lanes of
the Barney Circle Freeway would have connect The Anacostia Freeway.

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ima...48&Y=21528&W=1

--
John in the sand box of Marylands eastern shore.

M. Hale wrote:
> Nate Nagel > wrote in
> news:1120694182.6328a397f283878c7015e6b0098d2b59@t eranews:
>
>
>>I still don't understand the issue with "finishing" the Pennsylvania
>>Ave. interchange - by all means go with one of these other proposals
>>but how difficult would it really be to build the "missing" ramps?
>>More connectivity could only reduce congestion, one would think...
>>Unless as the other poster said they are really going to demo the last
>>bit of the SE freeway...
>
>
> At least with the Barney Circle Freeway, its been political. DC doesn't
> want to spend its money and in trun benefit only commuters from out of
> state. A corrolary to all this is the off and on talk of a commuter tax
> in DC. I would guess that the issues with the PA Avenue project would
> be similar.
>
> Seems to me that I'd want to get the commuters into town to work because
> they in turn spend money in shops and restaurants before and after work
> and during lunch. Oh well, in 33 years of living in the DC Area (MD
> then VA), I cannot explain DC politics. Heck, the voters in one of the
> DC wards put Marion Barry, a convicted drug user, back on the city
> council. That proves anything is possible in DC!
>
> Mike
>

I would think that a case could be made that that would allow easier
travel from downtown to Anacostia and vice versa, possibly stimulating
the revival of Anacostia as a place someone might actually want to live
(esp. with the insane housing prices everywhere else.) But what do I know?

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Brent P wrote:
> In article >, Ulf wrote:
>
>
>>>That's nice. But the concept collaspes with the first MFFY driver or
>>>enabler.
>>
>>Nope, I let two people ahead of me today at one of these merges, no-one
>>got upset.
>
>
> How would you know? Most people don't bother honking. I don't. But I
> still don't like enablers.

Well, obviously I don't actually know, and I don't really care either.
But the thing is that the traffic I merged with had already, which I
noticed today driving the stretch, suffered another merge just ~100 feet
earlier. So obviously they weren't too keen on keeping a distance to the
car ahead, and while I could have taken "my" space, ramming the car into
the ditch, that would definitely have resulted in a long, or very short,
conversation with my boss about using the company trucks as bumper
cars... :-)

>
>
>
>>>I've gotten to the point where I've learned that all road signs are
>>>meaningless. In the chicago area these signs would be totally ignored.
>
>
>
>>LOL.
>
>
> It's completely true. I realized this once seeing semis and box trucks in
> the slip lanes of 90/94 became common.

"Slip lanes", are we talking tolls here?

>
>
Ulf

Brent P wrote:
> In article >, Ulf wrote:
>
> >> That's nice. But the concept collaspes with the first MFFY driver or
> >> enabler.
> >
> > Nope, I let two people ahead of me today at one of these merges, no-one
> > got upset.
>
> How would you know? Most people don't bother honking. I don't. But I
> still don't like enablers.

Me neither. But I think what he meant wasn't so much that "no one got
upset" as he meant to refute the notion that "the concept collapses
with the first MFFY driver or enabler." The fact is, the zipper just
skips a tooth or two, but the concept resumes immediately and people
four, five, 10 or 20 cars back never feel a "shock wave" of congestion
or backup because of it. The concept still holds for orderly merging.
The first car to violate it doesn't really cause any long lasting
disruption once order resumes.

In article >, Ulf wrote:

>> It's completely true. I realized this once seeing semis and box trucks in
>> the slip lanes of 90/94 became common.
>
> "Slip lanes", are we talking tolls here?

actually the correct term is probably reversibles... there are two lanes
in the center that are switched in direction. they are supposed to be for
passenger cars only.

In article .com>, wrote:

> Me neither. But I think what he meant wasn't so much that "no one got
> upset" as he meant to refute the notion that "the concept collapses
> with the first MFFY driver or enabler." The fact is, the zipper just
> skips a tooth or two, but the concept resumes immediately and people
> four, five, 10 or 20 cars back never feel a "shock wave" of congestion
> or backup because of it. The concept still holds for orderly merging.
> The first car to violate it doesn't really cause any long lasting
> disruption once order resumes.

There's no elastic in chicago traffic for most of the day. All it takes
is one MFFY driver to shove the nose of his vehicle in and come to a stop
or the person he cuts off brake and the whole thing begins to tumble.

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Geoffrey Hatchard wrote:
>
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry if this is a repost... sent twice already and got an error
>>> message both times. anyway...
>>>
>>> Been a while since I'd been through this interchange - almost forgot
>>> about the signage. This is the ramp from Pennsylvania Ave. eastbound to
>>> the Anacostia Freeway (DC 295) north.
>>>
>>> http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel/ima.../DC_zipper.JPG
>>>
>>> Incidentally, this interchange also contains one of my biggest road
>>> peeves about DC area - to go from DC 295 south to PA Ave. west (which
>>> would be the logical way to get to the Southeast Freeway and
>>> subsequently I-395 south from points east) one has to either make an
>>> illegal U-turn on PA Ave. or else go around the block in a rather less
>>> than savory neighborhood - the only ramp from DC 295 south dumps you
>>> eastbound, or back out of the city.
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>>> PS - before anyone accuses me of any Tayloresque deriliction of common
>>> sense, I feel obligated to point out that the pic was taken with a
>>> camera with autofocus and a viewscreen, and also at a speed of appx.
>>> 10 MPH.
>>>
>>> PPS - amazingly enough, people were zippering quite nicely thank you!
>>>
>> Nate,
>>
>> The mayor has proposed a fix for the problem of going from 295 to Penn
>> Ave. westbound:
>>
>> http://ddot.dc.gov/ddot/cwp/view,a,1...v_GID,1610.asp
>>
>> It won't be direct, but it will allow for traffic to get downtown from
>> the Anacostia Freeway more quickly.
>>
>
> Cool, that would be a very Good Thing(tm) although I still say a direct
> ramp would be best. Actually converting the Pennsylvania Ave./DC-295
> interchange to a full cloverleaf would be best of all as then traffic
> from the SE freeway wouldn't have to cross over through traffic to get
> to DC-295 N. and also the issue I mentioned above would become a
> non-issue. It appears from a glance at a map that there's room to do
> it; not sure why it wasn't originally built that way.

This aerial shot
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ima...87&Y=43048&W=2
seems to show adequate room available for a SB 295/Penn Ave ramp...