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GPL Driving guide



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 1st 05, 11:53 PM
Jiyang Chen
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"Plowboy" > wrote in message
news:Vcone.26766$iU.17531@lakeread05...
> Jijang...
>
> Seriously, you might need to investigate about the wheel just a bit. I

had
> a ThrustMaster wheel, actually I had about 9 of them via sending them in
> under warranty and all the newer versions I tried back when...
>
> The output from the wheel needs to be smooth. now when you calibrate,
> if you just go in there willy nilly or without reguard to what is

happening,
> you may not notice, but the 'computer' and game will... Not sure how much
> you might 'get' about what I am saying, so le me see if I can simplify

this.
>
> When the wheel is at rest (lets agree it is centered) the value being
> expressed to the PC, is variable depending on specs, so let say it is
> showing the computer that it's reading a 100, as you turn the wheel to the
> left, it goes up in good wheels 101, 102, 103... on lesser good it can be
> 110, 120, 130 etc, up to 200 maybe. to the right it goes down

accordingly
> and equally for each 'degree of movement'.
>
> But my thrust-crapper wheel inviariably sent this to the pc, as I

slowly
> turned the wheel to the left for example... 101, 102, 50, 90 105, 110,

120,
> 190. thus the game thought I was turning left ever so slightly then wildly
> hard right, then wildly back to left, even though I was NOT. Being the

good
> sim, wanting to give my inputs to the simulated car, that kindof

readings...
> was causing great spins in anything above arcade games like MTM and crap
> like NFS...
>
> Anyway, sometimes this is just dirty or bad POTS (potentiometers). If you
> dont know what I mean by POT, think volume, balance, or tuning knob on

older
> radios... as you turn the volume knob the resistance that is read slowly
> and linearily increases or decreases, as such the circuits in the radio
> respond in kind with volume, balance or tuning is reflected... if the
> volume nob for example is dirty or 'bad' you get that 'static' crackly

sound
> as you turn the knob, that crap can happen in wheels, your game (& PC) try
> to determine what you did, usually wrecking you or sometimes ignoring you
> depending on the game or SW & drivers...
>
> Finally, I got a new & different wheel back then, all of a sudden GPL,
> nascar, and everything was drivable... many here like the Logitech's
> offerings, the Driving Force Pro wheels, the Momo wheels are ok too i have
> read, the driving force's I hear are cool, as they work with PC as well as
> PS2 I hear... I would recomend one like mine, but they arent made anymore
> MS-sidewinder FF v2 [red grip version]. plus you add the fact XP doesnt
> really do anything but do 'legacy' (meaning limited) support of the good

old
> gameports.. so that, if XP's your OS, could be another hurdle to get

over?
>

I think I know what you're talking about. I have a Thrustmaster Nascar
Charger (non usb) that twitches a lot even if I don't apply steering input.
I'll look into getting something else. Thanks for the post.


Ads
  #12  
Old June 2nd 05, 03:31 PM
Jeff Vincent
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On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:53:05 GMT, "Jiyang Chen" > wrote:

>I think I know what you're talking about. I have a Thrustmaster Nascar
>Charger (non usb) that twitches a lot even if I don't apply steering input.
>I'll look into getting something else. Thanks for the post.
>


CompUSA has the Logitech Momo Racing Force Feedback wheel for $80US
(minus a $30 rebate) through June 4. A good wheel for a good price...

http://www.compusa.com/products/prod...96053&pfp=cat3


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  #13  
Old June 3rd 05, 12:51 AM
Jiyang Chen
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I'm watching the replays the cars seem to be drifting during turns. Are
there any instructions on this 4 wheel drift?


  #14  
Old June 3rd 05, 01:32 AM
Malc
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"Jiyang Chen" > wrote in message
...
> I'm watching the replays the cars seem to be drifting during turns. Are
> there any instructions on this 4 wheel drift?


"Practice, practice, practice" ;-)

I used to be a gpl instructor (briefly), and trying to explain what to do to
someone else helps you understand it more fully yourself, but I could never
get my head round explaining how to drift the car. I can do it, I just can't
explain how. It's just how the car behaves when approaching the limit of
grip, and it's fairly pronounced in gpl thanks to the way it models grip.

Best advice I can suggest is that you throw the car into the corner & learn
to catch it before you run out of road. The effect is the same but obviously
drifting is much more subtle. Ideally once you've caught the slide you
should have the car pointing at the exit & just feed in the gas, but no one
gets it right every time. You just have to learn to let the car do the work
& keep the nose pointing in the direction you want the car to go.

Malc.


  #15  
Old June 3rd 05, 03:40 AM
Jimagn
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You might also consider getting the '65 Mod, as they're easier to drive
and make a good trainer for GPL.
http://55and65.speedgeezers.com/gpl65/

Jim

Malc wrote:
> "Jiyang Chen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I'm watching the replays the cars seem to be drifting during turns. Are
>>there any instructions on this 4 wheel drift?

>
>
> "Practice, practice, practice" ;-)
>
> I used to be a gpl instructor (briefly), and trying to explain what to do to
> someone else helps you understand it more fully yourself, but I could never
> get my head round explaining how to drift the car. I can do it, I just can't
> explain how. It's just how the car behaves when approaching the limit of
> grip, and it's fairly pronounced in gpl thanks to the way it models grip.
>
> Best advice I can suggest is that you throw the car into the corner & learn
> to catch it before you run out of road. The effect is the same but obviously
> drifting is much more subtle. Ideally once you've caught the slide you
> should have the car pointing at the exit & just feed in the gas, but no one
> gets it right every time. You just have to learn to let the car do the work
> & keep the nose pointing in the direction you want the car to go.
>
> Malc.
>
>

  #16  
Old June 3rd 05, 08:29 AM
Graham
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I am sticking my neck out replying to you. I drive around at the back of
the online races in my group. If any of the guys I drive with recognize
me they will probably think I should keep my mouth shut. However since
I can slide the car, but am no expert, perhaps I can help you get started.

To start off with the original Alison Hine setups are based on the
default setups and have differentials that lock up on braking - rather
like the fixed axle on a go-kart. This hinders car rotation which helps
newbies in that the rear of the car does not tend to come around causing
oversteer and spins. This also gives turn in understeer which basically
means that when you turn into the corner instead of going around the car
tends to go straight on.

To utilize this to your advantage drive into the corner as fast as you
dare which for most newbies will be pretty slow if you are trying to
avoid crashing at every corner. As you approach the corner turn in
early so that the apex of the corner appears in front of the car and it
looks like you are going to hit it (cutting the corner). If you have
enough speed the car will understeer, that is continue/slide on past the
apex and you will be able to drive past the apex on the ideal line.

When you check your replay you will see that you had a 4 wheel drift
into the corner.

Once you can see that you are able to drift the car it will give you
more confidence and you will be able to slide also when getting on the
power, combining wheelspin at the back with understeer at the front.

Later you will probably want to open the differential more to get more
car rotation this takes more practice to balance, but lets the car steer
more easily.

Hope this helps, if not, someone will probably jump in and tear this to
pieces, and that might help more.

Happy driving.

Graham

Jiyang Chen wrote:
> I'm watching the replays the cars seem to be drifting during turns. Are
> there any instructions on this 4 wheel drift?
>
>


  #17  
Old June 3rd 05, 01:11 PM
Dave Henrie
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Graham > wrote in :

> Later you will probably want to open the differential more to get more
> car rotation this takes more practice to balance, but lets the car steer
> more easily.
>


How does someone 'open' the differential? Do you use larger numbers?
a bigger gap between the two? Or do you try to reduce the difference?

Many folks see terms like this, and just have no idea what you are talking
about and how to implement it.

Thanks for your advice

dave henrie
  #18  
Old June 3rd 05, 02:27 PM
Graham
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Dave Henrie wrote:
> Graham > wrote in :
>
>
>>Later you will probably want to open the differential more to get more
>>car rotation this takes more practice to balance, but lets the car steer
>>more easily.
>>

>
>
> How does someone 'open' the differential? Do you use larger numbers?
> a bigger gap between the two? Or do you try to reduce the difference?
>
> Many folks see terms like this, and just have no idea what you are talking
> about and how to implement it.
>
> Thanks for your advice
>
> dave henrie


As I understand it the differential ramp angle figures xx/xx refer to
the "tendency to lock the differential" with power on/without power on,
which I look at as being during whether or not you use the accelerator
so even more simplified the first figure is out of a corner and the
second going into a corner. There are much better and more technical
explanations on the net. The further I get into it the more likely I
will be talking rubbish but here goes.

Put into the context of my post:

Most setups that are based on the differentials in the default setups
have figures like 85/30/4 85/45/4 and so on.

The smaller the angle the quicker the differential locks so 85 locks
slower than 30. So in a 85/30/x setup the differential locks quicker on
power off than on power on and so it locks on braking helping to keep
you straight and turn entry causing understeer and opens more when you
apply throttle allowing you to be more careless with the throttle, but
less than maximum acceleration. The final figure is clutches and I will
not discuss them here except to say that the tendency is to see more
clutches as increasing the tendency to lock, but with less effect than
decreasing the angle. Clutches affect both sides.

These 85/30/x or 85/45/x (x typically between 3 and 6) setups are useful
for beginners to learn early turn in, understeering onto the apex,
without spinning however this type of setup has come under critism as
unhistorical and encouraging "bad habits"

"Intermediate" style setups are of the type 60/60/x (x typically 1 or 2)
These setups turn more easily, lock up much less on power off somewhat
more on power off. When you go over from 85/30/4 to 60/60/1 you tend to
oversteer into the corners until you get used to it.

From what I have seen expert setups venture into the 45/85/x style
reversing the tendencies from the default setups. In other words the
differential will have very little tendency to lock on braking and turn
in be open in the corner and lock when you get on the accelerator.

I have gone way beyond my incompetency level but this is my attempt at
understanding what I have read on the subject and relating it to my own
humble attempts at driving GPL cars.

More expert opinions can be found at:

Niels Heusinkveld setup guide (with useful table combining rampangles
and clutches).

http://www.geocities.com/n_heusink/setupguide/guide.htm

Nunnini's GPL Foolishness site

http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/Differential.html

Paul Jacksons setup site

http://www.gpladdicts.speedgeezers.c...etupguide.html

regards
Graham

  #19  
Old June 3rd 05, 02:45 PM
Graham
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Dave Henrie wrote:

> Graham > wrote in :
>
>
>>Later you will probably want to open the differential more to get more
>>car rotation this takes more practice to balance, but lets the car steer
>>more easily.
>>

>
>
> How does someone 'open' the differential? Do you use larger numbers?
> a bigger gap between the two? Or do you try to reduce the difference?
>
> Many folks see terms like this, and just have no idea what you are talking
> about and how to implement it.
>
> Thanks for your advice
>
> dave henrie


Sorry I am reposting to correct a couple of mistakes and include some
punctuation.

As I understand it the differential ramp angle figures xx/xx refer to
the "tendency to lock the differential" with power on/without power on,
which I look at as being during whether or not you use the accelerator.
So even more simplified the first figure is out of a corner and the
second going into a corner. There are much better and more technical
explanations on the net. The further I get into it the more likely I
will be talking rubbish but here goes.

Put into the context of my post:

Most setups that are based on the differentials in the default setups
have figures like 85/30/4 85/45/4 and so on.

The smaller the angle the quicker the differential locks so 85 locks
slower than 30. So in a 85/30/x setup the differential locks quicker on
power off than on power on, and so it locks on braking helping to keep
you straight, staying locked for turn entry causing understeer. It opens
more when you apply throttle allowing you to be more careless with the
throttle, but giving less than maximum acceleration. The final figure is
clutches and I will not discuss them here, except to say that the
tendency is to see more clutches as increasing the tendency to lock, but
with less effect than decreasing the angle. Clutches affect both sides.

These 85/30/x or 85/45/x (x typically between 3 and 6) setups are useful
for beginners to learn early turn in, understeering onto the apex,
without spinning. However this type of setup has come under critism as
unhistorical and encouraging "bad habits"

"Intermediate" style setups are of the type 60/60/x (x typically 1 or 2)
These setups turn more easily, lock up much less on power off somewhat
more on power on. When you go over from 85/30/4 to 60/60/1 you tend to
oversteer into the corners until you get used to it, and can tend to
spin more when getting on the gas.

From what I have seen expert setups venture into the 45/60/x 45/85/x
style, reversing the tendencies from the default setups. In other words
the differential will have very little tendency to lock on braking and
turn in. It will be open in the corner, and lock when you get on the
accelerator.

I have gone way beyond my incompetency level, but this is my attempt at
understanding what I have read on the subject and relating it to my own
humble attempts at driving GPL cars.

More expert opinions can be found at:

Niels Heusinkveld setup guide (with useful table combining rampangles
and clutches).

http://www.geocities.com/n_heusink/setupguide/guide.htm

Nunnini's GPL Foolishness site

http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/Differential.html

Paul Jacksons setup site

http://www.gpladdicts.speedgeezers.c...etupguide.html

regards
Graham

  #20  
Old June 3rd 05, 03:09 PM
Steve Blankenship
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"Dave Henrie" > wrote in message
. 97.136...
> Graham > wrote in :
>
> > Later you will probably want to open the differential more to get more
> > car rotation this takes more practice to balance, but lets the car steer
> > more easily.
> >

>
> How does someone 'open' the differential? Do you use larger numbers?
> a bigger gap between the two? Or do you try to reduce the difference?
>
> Many folks see terms like this, and just have no idea what you are talking
> about and how to implement it.
>
> Thanks for your advice
>


Not who you asked, but since I'm in here... ;-)

Opening the diffs is achieved through lower numbers, both for the
accel/coast side ramp angles and the clutch plates. A 30/30-1 setup is as
open as you can get going through the stock menu, while 85/85-6 is the
opposite extreme. Higher numbers for the ramp angles will stabilize the car
under the condition the ramp angle applies to, either acceleration or
coasting/braking, and the clutch plates control the max locking force under
either condition.

Early on, everyone ran ramp angles around 85/30 or 85/45 since they were
easier to handle under power, but now the reverse (or almost) is the norm.
Which is as it should be; in interviews way back when, even DK noted that
everyone was running the diffs backwards. The high power-side ramp angles
help to keep the car pointed straight when you get on the gas, but tend to
induce high-speed understeer. The only way around that is to overdrive it
and drift the car around at high slip angles. Which causes a lot of
frictional drag, raising laptimes. The move to open accel-side ramp angles
is imho one of the main reasons laptimes continued to drop in GPL. The
aliens had pretty much gotten all they could out of the old-school setups
and needed a way to kill the high-speed push.

Of course the cars are considerably more of a handful on the gas with say a
45-degree accel-side ramp angle, so many who try them go back since they
have a rough time staying on track. The cars are extremely
throttle-steerable with the low angles and some, particularly the Lotus,
tend to be a bit much. The cars with softer power and longer wheelbases are
easier to live with at low ramp angles. So people just need to experiment
and find a compromise that works for them. Coast-side angles will generally
be higher if you're running the power side open, since they help stabilize
the car under braking. They started out lower so you could bring the nose
in by backing off the throttle mid-corner. Clutch plates can be looked at
as a finer adjustment after you get the ramp angles you like, lower numbers
will allow more slippage and let the car turn easier, while higher ones will
make the car want to stay straight.

I used to think this was all very complex until I got a look at the diff
menu for RBR. You need a freakin' Cray to work that one out. Gpl has
GPLRE, but RBR has a 3rd party setup utility just for the diffs!

Cheers,

SB


 




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