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#1
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Tyres again
Having had to change all four tyres on my 156 V6 I engaged in a few
conversations with tyre sellers. This view that rear tyres should be better than fronts on FWDs really seems to have taken hold in the instructions coming from the manufacturers. One seller tried to persuade me to have harder compounds on the front so they would last longer and ensure the best grip was at the back. In the end I plumped for Bridgestone S03s which I am really pleased with, much better grip than the Contisports especially in the wet. I am still of the view that if people want to abruptly lift off or brake on reverse camber tightening bends the balance of tyres isn't going to save them and that the real enemy of FWDs is understeer. My personal view is that the manufacturers are simply covering themselves from the general public. If people understeer off then they are driving too fast if they oversteer off it is the tyres fault. Cheers Tony |
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#2
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On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:58:47 GMT, "Tony Rickard"
> wrote: >Having had to change all four tyres on my 156 V6 I engaged in a few >conversations with tyre sellers. This view that rear tyres should be better >than fronts on FWDs really seems to have taken hold in the instructions >coming from the manufacturers. Little wonder..it's the correct procedure for the vast majority of people. >One seller tried to persuade me to have harder compounds on the front so >they would last longer and ensure the best grip was at the back. ? >In the end I plumped for Bridgestone S03s which I am really pleased with, >much better grip than the Contisports especially in the wet. Interesting..I find the Contis ok in the wet (being in the West of Scotland, this is our normal weather condition!) >I am still of the view that if people want to abruptly lift off or brake on >reverse camber tightening bends the balance of tyres isn't going to save >them and that the real enemy of FWDs is understeer. The vast majority of people have no clue how to handle a car that is oversteering and lose the plot instantly. In this case, the ONLY option is to promote the *simpler* understeer. This is because understeer is less dramatic and easier to spot in advance than a car spinning from the rear. The hapless driver is less likely to make a complete mess of understeer than oversteer and so, maybe, recover. Of course, if the road speed is so high that a crash is inevitable, manufacturers seem to want us to go in front first rather than spinning - I wonder if it's to do with crumple zones and air bags etc. My understanding is that whiplash is a serious problem for rear end crashes with most current cars. The 156 is as poor in this respect as it appears to be in all other areas of occupant protection in a crash. >My personal view is that the manufacturers are simply covering themselves >from the general public. If people understeer off then they are driving too >fast if they oversteer off it is the tyres fault. Doubt it..the police are pretty good at calculating speeds from skid marks. In any case, slide off a road at a corner and they'll start off on the assumption that you were going too fast for the conditions anyway before they measure up and prove it. -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#3
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"Zathras" wrote:
> Interesting..I find the Contis ok in the wet (being in the West of > Scotland, this is our normal weather condition!) The Contis were fine but the SO3s are noticeably better. Admittedly the Contis were well worn when they came off, but my recollection when new was not as grippy in the wet and it has been pretty wet in the South West too! The SO3s were noticeably noisier mind. Either they have settled in or I have got used to them. I have been quite astonished at the wet grip to the point of seeing how far I have to push to get the yellow traction light on - A tricky one to explain to the local constabulary >>My personal view is that the manufacturers are simply covering themselves >>from the general public. If people understeer off then they are driving >>too >>fast if they oversteer off it is the tyres fault. > > Doubt it..the police are pretty good at calculating speeds from skid > marks. In any case, slide off a road at a corner and they'll start off > on the assumption that you were going too fast for the conditions > anyway before they measure up and prove it. I am probably biased as we have local bend where people regularly fall off backwards in bad conditions, and an article in the local paper had the latest victim complaining they weren't speeding so it was the fault of the bend. There was never a suggestion that the person was anything but an innocent victim let alone police action. The bend tightens and people react with aggressive steering and abruptly lift or brake. So I should concede that possibly greater grip at the rear would help them, but I don't think it would make a big enough difference. The bend is being modified as we speak. Christ knows what will happen if we get any snow in the south west cos we have generations who have never driven in it and believe speed limits protect them. In my view there is sufficient understeer built into a modern FWD that you would need bald or hardened tyres on the rear to cause oversteer without really provoking it. Then again I am sure Steve H will testify that the 33 he bought from me with old and hard rear tyres can oversteer quite nicely, so I am probably not the best person to pass judgement! Cheers Tony |
#4
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On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:03:25 GMT, "Tony Rickard"
> wrote: >"Zathras" wrote: > >> Interesting..I find the Contis ok in the wet (being in the West of >> Scotland, this is our normal weather condition!) > >The Contis were fine but the SO3s are noticeably better. Admittedly the >Contis were well worn when they came off, but my recollection when new was >not as grippy in the wet and it has been pretty wet in the South West too! This is the trouble..my front contis are 28000 miles and 3.5 years old. Although legal, remoulds would offer better grip now. They were a lot better when newer but I can hardly remember that now! >The SO3s were noticeably noisier mind. Either they have settled in or I have >got used to them. > >I have been quite astonished at the wet grip to the point of seeing how far >I have to push to get the yellow traction light on - A tricky one to explain >to the local constabulary My car doesn't need or have traction control. :-) <snip> >The bend is being modified as we speak. Christ knows what will happen if we >get any snow in the south west cos we have generations who have never driven >in it and believe speed limits protect them. This is VERY true. I haven't seen decent snow here in years however, with the ground *clearance* I have I'll not be playing in it with my 156 sadly! >In my view there is sufficient understeer built into a modern FWD that you >would need bald or hardened tyres on the rear to cause oversteer without >really provoking it. Trouble is, if you're in a situation where a slide of any sort is on the cards, a clumsy or scared-out-of-her-wits driver can provoke anything. My wife proved this when the JTD was new (on new tyres all round) when she got the tail to lurch out on a high speed corner by taking her foot off the accelerator and braking (brown trousers for the passenger - me - that time!!) <snip> -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#5
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On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:43:56 GMT, Zathras > pee'd inna snow,
the following: X:On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:03:25 GMT, "Tony Rickard" > wrote: X: X:>"Zathras" wrote: X:> X:>> Interesting..I find the Contis ok in the wet (being in the West of X:>> Scotland, this is our normal weather condition!) X:> X:>The Contis were fine but the SO3s are noticeably better. Admittedly the X:>Contis were well worn when they came off, but my recollection when new was X:>not as grippy in the wet and it has been pretty wet in the South West too! X: X:This is the trouble..my front contis are 28000 miles and 3.5 years Xld. Although legal, remoulds would offer better grip now. They were a X:lot better when newer but I can hardly remember that now! X: X:>The SO3s were noticeably noisier mind. Either they have settled in or I have X:>got used to them. X:> X:>I have been quite astonished at the wet grip to the point of seeing how far X:>I have to push to get the yellow traction light on - A tricky one to explain X:>to the local constabulary X: X:My car doesn't need or have traction control. :-) X: X:<snip> X:>The bend is being modified as we speak. Christ knows what will happen if we X:>get any snow in the south west cos we have generations who have never driven X:>in it and believe speed limits protect them. X: X:This is VERY true. I haven't seen decent snow here in years however, X:with the ground *clearance* I have I'll not be playing in it with my X:156 sadly! X: X:>In my view there is sufficient understeer built into a modern FWD that you X:>would need bald or hardened tyres on the rear to cause oversteer without X:>really provoking it. X: X:Trouble is, if you're in a situation where a slide of any sort is on X:the cards, a clumsy or scared-out-of-her-wits driver can provoke X:anything. My wife proved this when the JTD was new (on new tyres all X:round) when she got the tail to lurch out on a high speed corner by X:taking her foot off the accelerator and braking (brown trousers for X:the passenger - me - that time!!) X: X:<snip> Old School he If I get into a car I know has a tendency to 'push' I drive it like Auntie would. I ~like~ some oversteer. With RWD, If the front-end scrubs I push th' loud button a bit harder and go to work, No Prob... FWD is the Devil's doin' I tell ya! ;-} Many a mate has laughed at me for this understeer fobia... until I've strapped 'em into the Elan and taken 'em for a demo of controlled oversteer... BWUHAAHAAAA!!!!!!! "That's gonna itch when it dries, mate!" Dr E-- mhm 17x1 Linux: Load it, Learn it, Love it. |
#6
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On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:58:47 GMT, "Tony Rickard" > pee'd inna
snow, the following: X:Having had to change all four tyres on my 156 V6 I engaged in a few X:conversations with tyre sellers. This view that rear tyres should be better X:than fronts on FWDs really seems to have taken hold in the instructions X:coming from the manufacturers. X: X:One seller tried to persuade me to have harder compounds on the front so X:they would last longer and ensure the best grip was at the back. This paradigm seems to be aimed straight at novice or timid drivers IMHO. Front draggers tend to 'push' at limit, so I'd want the stickiest thing I could get on the front set. The back hasn't much choice but to go along for the ride then. If you're at limit and it scrubbs, steer into it a bit and put yer boot in it. Recovery is imminent that way (as long as there's consistent pavement ;=). X:In the end I plumped for Bridgestone S03s which I am really pleased with, X:much better grip than the Contisports especially in the wet. I recently tried out Michelin's newest rain spreaders. Marketed here (US) as "HydroEdge". Stellar wet performance on the Spider. No idea how long they'll last but I like 'em enuff to go for another round. When the "family transporter" (old Benz 300D Turbo-- "Diesela" by name) needs shod, she'll get 'em as well. X:I am still of the view that if people want to abruptly lift off or brake on X:reverse camber tightening bends the balance of tyres isn't going to save X:them and that the real enemy of FWDs is understeer. Mainly due to the loose nut behind th' wheel IMHO! Off-camber decreasing radius turns are to be treated with utmost respect. If you're goin' out to play fast n' loose on HM Public Roads, it'd be a good idea to "walk the course" so's to have info beforehand... Physics will out. X:My personal view is that the manufacturers are simply covering themselves X:from the general public. If people understeer off then they are driving too X:fast if they oversteer off it is the tyres fault. umm...and if they spill a cuppa McD's hot coffee in their crotch??? SUE Mickey D!!! Where's the the: "I am the Commander of my ship" philosophy? Tyre guages? Training? With the rash of Ford SUV's flipping over here inna States, Firestone should have DEMANDED proof of proper maintenance: Proper tyre pressures, adherence to speed limits, driver experience(!) and road conditions. Instead, they took it "inna shorts" for said "general public's" PC attitude. They shoulda said "Okay-okay. Here's your settlement. Unfortunately it's broken us, so now we'll stick exclusively to making pram tyres. Go sue Goodyear for your ineptitude from now on." God save the babies. Too much litigation, not enuff responsibility IMHO. A sudden patch of black ice would be one of the few mitigating conditions for calling a shunt an "accident" and even that's stretching it. Bit of a rant there... sorry. I'm not as restrained as you, Tony ;-} X: X:Cheers X:Tony X: Dr E-- mhm 17x1 Linux: Load it, Learn it, Love it. |
#7
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:28:08 -0500, Dr Entropy >
wrote: <snip> > >Old School he Yes, I'm an old f@rt too! >If I get into a car I know has a tendency to 'push' I drive it like Auntie would. Why? Plenty of rather good rally cars were front wheel drive..you old enough to remember Mini's and Saabs (IIRC) beating RWD? >I ~like~ some oversteer. With RWD, If the front-end scrubs I push th' loud button a bit harder and >go to work, No Prob... On the road these days, I prefer something that's a bit tidier..4 wheel drive..or..failing that, a front wheel drive Alfa will do nicely. Tail (or front) out on tarmac just loses you speed Doc! >FWD is the Devil's doin' I tell ya! ;-} I'm going to Hell anyway..might as well practice with the appropriate technology then. >Many a mate has laughed at me for this understeer fobia... until I've strapped 'em into the Elan >and taken 'em for a demo of controlled oversteer... > >BWUHAAHAAAA!!!!!!! "That's gonna itch when it dries, mate!" I'd go for a 7 myself..the Elan is a bit of a luxury barge by comparison! ;-) In any case, a rear wheel drive replacement for my 156 would likely be German..so..no..I'll just stick to the rather nicely balanced (and over-steerable) 156 for now. YMMV! -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
#8
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"Zathras" wrote:
> In any case, a rear wheel drive replacement for my 156 would likely be > German.. BLASPHEMY! You're only making it worse for yourself |
#9
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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:19:19 GMT, "Tony Rickard"
> wrote: >"Zathras" wrote: > >> In any case, a rear wheel drive replacement for my 156 would likely be >> German.. > >BLASPHEMY! You're only making it worse for yourself Provocative eh?! Where else would you get a 156 competitor with rear-wheel drive though? -- Z Scotland Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather 'Oil' be seeing you.. (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!) |
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