1997 honda civic hardstart

"hardly ever get that on a honda - pressure leakage from the cylinders
is
confined to the water jacket, and the oil passages are well sealed so
no
coolant gets into the oil. *commonest symptom is excess pressure in
the
coolant."


Jim, thanks. I do get excess pressure in the coolant. So i really have
a failed cylinder head? The cylinder head have been refaced already
since i had the car overheated a year ago.

Thank you.

Jeffrey D. wrote:
> "hardly ever get that on a honda - pressure leakage from the cylinders
> is
> confined to the water jacket, and the oil passages are well sealed so
> no
> coolant gets into the oil. �commonest symptom is excess pressure in
> the
> coolant."
>
>
> Jim, thanks. I do get excess pressure in the coolant. So i really have
> a failed cylinder head? The cylinder head have been refaced already
> since i had the car overheated a year ago.
>
> Thank you.


bad news - the guys that did your head last time were just creatures of
habit - they didn't understand what they were doing. skimming the head,
unless it's necessary because the head is warped, is a really bad idea -
it throws the cam timing out and unless done to factory spec [highly
unlikely] won't have the surface finish necessary to form a good seal.
iow, the head is now toast. it probably would have been fine if they'd
left it and just cleaned it [but cleaning is a pita].

now your choices a
1. buy a new head - way expensive.
2. buy a used head from a junkyard - much cheaper, but a lot of work.
3. buy a whole new [low mileage used] jdm engine and simply replace the
motor.

for the money and effort required, i'd go with #3. these engines cost
$400-$500 unless you have the vtec or twin cam, and the labor to replace
is a lot less than the labor on prepping the motor for a new head.

good luck. don't use the same people that did the last work.

also, consider replacing the radiator if you haven't already done so.
they have a life of about 10 years, and when they crack, the engine
cooks and you'll need a new head gasket!

Jim, again thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.

I've been asking around here regarding buying a surplus cylinder head.
Suppliers here in our country confirm that there are available surplus
cylinder made from Japan. If I have to convert it to dollar, the cost
of the cylinder head including the cam and rocker arms would only be
$340 - $360 (i am from asia). Do you think this is worth buying? I
mean it's cheaper than buying a new or low mileage engine but can i
similarly trust the head's quality?

Just last weekend, i approached a shop (200kms away from us) that
specializes in HONDA engines to do all test to check why I have
difficulty starting when the engine is hot. They found out the
following:
1.0 I have small leaks on my radiator. (this has been repaired today)
2.0 They found that two of my four cylinders have low compression -
position 2 and 3. Position 1 and 4 is ok according to them.

I also mentioned I overheated the car and they recommended an overhaul
- to see if my cylinder head is warped and how the pistons conditions
are. So I see that I don't just need a cylinder head replacement but
probably piston sets for the two cylinders having low compression?
Would I still need the block also replaced aside from the cylinder
head?

The local shop which i approached told me it would still be okay to
run the car despite the leaking radiator and low compression engine.
Unfortunately after coming out from the shop and after travelling
about 130kms going back home, the oil pressure and the battery warning
lights flashed telling me there's something wrong with the engine. It
happened as I go downhill after going through uphill. The WORST thing
that happened to my automatic car when the lights flashed was that the
breaks has been disabled and I could no longer use the breaks. I used
the handbreak instead to stop the car. It was almost an ACCIDENT...

Again, thank you very much. I really appreciate all the thoughts you
have today.

I think this is the price of my limited knowledge on engines...Good
thing there are forums like this to help me understand.

JD

On Jan 10, 4:52*pm, wrote:
> A rich mixture aids to a cold start and makes warm starting a
> biatch!!
>
> When the engine is hot, You can try pressing the gas pedal all the way
> to the floor and HOLDING it there while starting. A wide open throttle
> will compomise a rich condition
>
> If that's the case, I suspect a faulty O2 sensor. How's your fuel
> economy (mpg)?
>
> - Show quoted text -

So I dont get a rich mixture already when the engine is hot...
I have been starting this car with the gas PEDAL all the way to the
floor and it helps the engine start (this is only when the engine is
hot to start the car).

Where can I find the O2 sensor if thats the problem??? I have a lower
gas mileage these days...
Isn't this related to the overheating problem I have beed discussing?

Thank you very much also for your thoughts.

JD

On Jan 15, 10:25 am, "Jeffrey D." > wrote:
> On Jan 10, 4:52 pm, wrote:
>
> > A rich mixture aids to a cold start and makes warm starting a
> > biatch!!
>
> > When the engine is hot, You can try pressing the gas pedal all the way
> > to the floor and HOLDING it there while starting. A wide open throttle
> > will compomise a rich condition
>
> > If that's the case, I suspect a faulty O2 sensor. How's your fuel
> > economy (mpg)?
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So I dont get a rich mixture already when the engine is hot...
> I have been starting this car with the gas PEDAL all the way to the
> floor and it helps the engine start (this is only when the engine is
> hot to start the car).
>
> Where can I find the O2 sensor if thats the problem??? I have a lower
> gas mileage these days...
> Isn't this related to the overheating problem I have beed discussing?
>
> Thank you very much also for your thoughts.
>
> JD


Did the overheating problem come a while after the hard start problem?
If that's the case, then yes it's related

When the O2 sensor fails, it defaults the ECU to command a wet mixture
as a fail-safe measure, cause a dry mixture will overheat the engine
instantly.
That allows you to continue driving between repairs. The thing is, it
may not throw a code, or if it does, the code may not be reproduced
after you reset the ECU.

Now, a wet mixture is a burden to the cat converter. If such condition
persists for a certain period of time, then the cat will become
clogged, and when that happen, the headers go red-hot and overload the
cooling system.

Oh boy, you just open a full can or worms... lol

I had the overheating a year ago. I don't have any clue actually if
the flashing of the oil pressure and battery lights are symptoms of
overheating now but according to the technician who helped tow the
car, it was due to overheating. Here's the big BUT: the temperature
gauge DID not rose to the maximum indicating that i really have the
problem of overheating. The car's engine just turned off after
flashing the two lights - oil pressure and battery lights...What is
this indication? Overheating or O2 sensor failure?

I have difficulty understanding if this is overheating since I have
still lots of water remaining in the radiator (about 3 liters left and
1 liter was gone due to the small leaks). Probably the engine turned
off because there's just too much air pressure already in the cooling
system? How about head gasket failure?

When the two lights are on, what happened is that the brakes and gas
pedals are disabled making it difficult to stop the car using its own
brake. I have to use the parking or hand brake to stop the car.

JD

On Jan 15, 10:03 am, "Jeffrey D." > wrote:
> Jim, again thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.
>
> I've been asking around here regarding buying a surplus cylinder head.
> Suppliers here in our country confirm that there are available surplus
> cylinder made from Japan. If I have to convert it to dollar, the cost
> of the cylinder head including the cam and rocker arms would only be
> $340 - $360 (i am from asia). Do you think this is worth buying? I
> mean it's cheaper than buying a new or low mileage engine but can i
> similarly trust the head's quality?
>
> Just last weekend, i approached a shop (200kms away from us) that
> specializes in HONDA engines to do all test to check why I have
> difficulty starting when the engine is hot. They found out the
> following:
> 1.0 I have small leaks on my radiator. (this has been repaired today)
> 2.0 They found that two of my four cylinders have low compression -
> position 2 and 3. Position 1 and 4 is ok according to them.
>
> I also mentioned I overheated the car and they recommended an overhaul
> - to see if my cylinder head is warped and how the pistons conditions
> are. So I see that I don't just need a cylinder head replacement but
> probably piston sets for the two cylinders having low compression?
> Would I still need the block also replaced aside from the cylinder
> head?
>
> The local shop which i approached told me it would still be okay to
> run the car despite the leaking radiator and low compression engine.
> Unfortunately after coming out from the shop and after travelling
> about 130kms going back home, the oil pressure and the battery warning
> lights flashed telling me there's something wrong with the engine. It
> happened as I go downhill after going through uphill. The WORST thing
> that happened to my automatic car when the lights flashed was that the
> breaks has been disabled and I could no longer use the breaks. I used
> the handbreak instead to stop the car. It was almost an ACCIDENT...
>
> Again, thank you very much. I really appreciate all the thoughts you
> have today.
>
> I think this is the price of my limited knowledge on engines...Good
> thing there are forums like this to help me understand.
>
> JD

i'm wondering if you're driving a US version of Honda Civic in Asia? I
don't know about now, but a while back folks in Asia lived with a
blissful ignorance of emission controls in motor vehiles and their ill-
effects on the engines when emission components start to fail.

Catalytic converter is an ill-conceived idea, if you ask me. It was
invented because Detroit was unable to produce fuel efficiency
engines. So there came the cat converter as a convenience and a band-
aid to gas-guzzling, hot-rod pieces of sh*t.

Japanese manufacturers took the cat converter negatively when it was
first introduced. But then again, they wanted their cakes in North
American market, no? Well, i gutted my Honda cat converter, before it
has a chance to f*ck up my ride.

Global warming caused by emission? F*ck that bullsh*t. Why did the
dinosaurs come to an extinction? They warmed the globe by the emission
from their buttholes? haha

Anyways, your car is severly overheated. Don't drive it until you fix
it!!!

Hahaha. One more question: Do cars experience OVERHEATING without the
temp gauge RISING to the maximum???
The Civic here I think is just the same with the US versions - VTEC,
16 valve etc...

JD

On Jan 15, 6:51 pm, "Jeffrey D." > wrote:
> Hahaha. One more question: Do cars experience OVERHEATING without the
> temp gauge RISING to the maximum???
> The Civic here I think is just the same with the US versions - VTEC,
> 16 valve etc...
>
> JD

You said your Civic is an automatic, that makes me wonder if you have
an US version. 99% of folks in Asia drive manual, regardless of
makes.

The same Honda year/model for different markets have the same engine
mechanical, the differences are in emission controls. In this case,
two mechanically identical engines may be designated two different
model names. Check to find out what kind of emission controls your
care is equipped with.

Now for your question. In most Hondas, the temp gauge sender
(seperated from the coolant temp sensor) feeds the gauge on your dash
board. It may not function properly, telling you the the engine is
cool when it's hot, and vice versa. Not sure about the its location on
a 97 Civic

But the temp gauge sender usualy has one wire, disconnect this wire
from the sender and ground it. Now, insert the key and turn it to ON
(II), you should see the gauge at the maximum. If not, replace the
sender. And do not leave the wire grounded for more than few seconds
or you risk damaging the gauge.

Cheers

Jeffrey D. wrote:
> Jim, again thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.
>
> I've been asking around here regarding buying a surplus cylinder head.
> Suppliers here in our country confirm that there are available surplus
> cylinder made from Japan. If I have to convert it to dollar, the cost
> of the cylinder head including the cam and rocker arms would only be
> $340 - $360 (i am from asia). Do you think this is worth buying? I
> mean it's cheaper than buying a new or low mileage engine but can i
> similarly trust the head's quality?
>
> Just last weekend, i approached a shop (200kms away from us) that
> specializes in HONDA engines to do all test to check why I have
> difficulty starting when the engine is hot. They found out the
> following:
> 1.0 I have small leaks on my radiator. (this has been repaired today)
> 2.0 They found that two of my four cylinders have low compression -
> position 2 and 3. Position 1 and 4 is ok according to them.
>
> I also mentioned I overheated the car and they recommended an overhaul
> - to see if my cylinder head is warped and how the pistons conditions
> are. So I see that I don't just need a cylinder head replacement but
> probably piston sets for the two cylinders having low compression?

rubbish. the gasket is bridged between the two middle cylinders -
common for a blown head gasket. no need to replace pistons for that.


> Would I still need the block also replaced aside from the cylinder
> head?
>
> The local shop which i approached told me it would still be okay to
> run the car despite the leaking radiator and low compression engine.
> Unfortunately after coming out from the shop and after travelling
> about 130kms going back home, the oil pressure and the battery warning
> lights flashed telling me there's something wrong with the engine. It
> happened as I go downhill after going through uphill. The WORST thing
> that happened to my automatic car when the lights flashed was that the
> breaks has been disabled and I could no longer use the breaks. I used
> the handbreak instead to stop the car. It was almost an ACCIDENT...
>
> Again, thank you very much. I really appreciate all the thoughts you
> have today.
>
> I think this is the price of my limited knowledge on engines...Good
> thing there are forums like this to help me understand.
>
> JD
>

sounds like your engine is toast.

regarding the repair/replace question, these guys sound both incompetent
and a bunch of hosers. unfortunately, if they think you don't know
enough to challenge them, most car repair shops will recommend what
makes them the most money - replacing just the cylinder head. these
guys are going way beyond that.

simply replacing the engine, while a couple of hundred dollars more
expensive on the buy side compared to just a cylinder head [not
rebuilding the block like they're saying], is substantially cheaper on
the labor side. add a total rebuild and you're looking at thousands of
dollars.

regarding replacement otoh, most experienced honda techs can have the
engine out in less than an hour. just a little more to put one back in.
replacing the cylinder head is about the same disassembly time, a
whole bunch of time cleaning, checking and prepping, then a bunch of
time putting the whole thing back together again. assuming they don't
"discover" more problems of course. and on top of that if they do
rebuild, as you've just discovered, there is a high probability of
reliability problems afterwards!

bottom line, you'll need to check the comparative costs for your
location, but if you're not doing the work yourself, i say the balance
is strongly in favor of simply replacing the whole motor. call around
for quotes. most replacement engine importers will ship to wherever you
say, so just choose a repair shop from whom you have a firm engine
replacement labor quote, and have it shipped to them to do the swap.
and make sure you also replace the radiator - its slow failure is what
caused the problem in the first place!!!