Q4 engine in GTV6?

Hello all !

I have 2 GTVs, 1 is GTV6 2.5 (in very bad condition), and other is GTV2.0,
in decent condition. My plan is to use 2.0 chasis and put in an 3.0 24V
engine from 164Q4, which I could get relatively cheap (complete car).
So my questions would be:

Am i facing only "usuall" 24V conversion problems, or are there some new
issues regarding 4WD of Q4 ?

Since GTV2.0 have 4 hole wheels, and i plan to use Q4 alloys, is it possible
to transfer hubs from GTV6 ?

I would like to have LSD diferrential, so seems I will have to put hands on
75s one. Question is does 75 2.0TS have LSD ? Could I use complete gearbox
from it ?

Once I manage to fit the engine, I will have some more questions about
suspension and brakes, so stay tuned.

Tnx,
Mario, Croatia

Mario Orsolic wrote:

> Hello all !
>
> I have 2 GTVs, 1 is GTV6 2.5 (in very bad condition), and other is GTV2.0,
> in decent condition. My plan is to use 2.0 chasis and put in an 3.0 24V
> engine from 164Q4, which I could get relatively cheap (complete car).
> So my questions would be:

*cough* cheap?

> Am i facing only "usuall" 24V conversion problems, or are there some new
> issues regarding 4WD of Q4 ?

I think the 24v engine is deeper than the 12v. It should fit with new
mounts though (eventually)

Are you planning on making this AWD??


> Since GTV2.0 have 4 hole wheels, and i plan to use Q4 alloys, is it
> possible to transfer hubs from GTV6 ?

You'd probably better finding a transaxle from a V6 and using that whole,
together with front components from another V6

> I would like to have LSD diferrential, so seems I will have to put hands
> on 75s one. Question is does 75 2.0TS have LSD ? Could I use complete
> gearbox from it ?

AIUI the TS does not have an LSD. Also the gearing is a bit lower. This
would make for a brisk car

> Once I manage to fit the engine, I will have some more questions about
> suspension and brakes, so stay tuned.

Let us know how it comes out. You might want to check the pics of my V6
conversion to see some of the work involved.

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS (two off)
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"Catman" > wrote in message
...

> *cough* cheap?

A bit above 1000 EUR. Car is not completely ok, and can't pass TUV (in
Germany), but engine is running ok, and engine (and management) is what I
need.

> > Am i facing only "usuall" 24V conversion problems, or are there some new
> > issues regarding 4WD of Q4 ?
>
> I think the 24v engine is deeper than the 12v. It should fit with new
> mounts though (eventually)

I'm mostly aware of "standard" problems of fitting 24V engine in GTV6 -
question is should i expect new problems concerning 4WD of Q4, eg. do
"standard" 164 24V engine and Q4 engine look the same from gearbox side ?

> Are you planning on making this AWD??

Definitely not.
But that open another question: i could probably run into trouble if engine
management relies on some specific 4WD input which i will not be able to
provide.

> > Since GTV2.0 have 4 hole wheels, and i plan to use Q4 alloys, is it
> > possible to transfer hubs from GTV6 ?
>
> You'd probably better finding a transaxle from a V6 and using that whole,
> together with front components from another V6

Well, alternative is to find a nice 75V6 and transfer everything, but since
I used to drive and 164Q4 few years ago, I like the idea of same power.


> Let us know how it comes out. You might want to check the pics of my V6
> conversion to see some of the work involved.

I would appreciate that, but i couldn't find them at
> www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

OrMar

Mario Orsolic wrote:

> "Catman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> *cough* cheap?
>
> A bit above 1000 EUR. Car is not completely ok, and can't pass TUV (in
> Germany), but engine is running ok, and engine (and management) is what I
> need.

I will be very surprised if you can do it for that, even allowing for the
difference in labour rates. Are you doing all this yourself?

>> > Am i facing only "usuall" 24V conversion problems, or are there some
>> > new issues regarding 4WD of Q4 ?
>>
>> I think the 24v engine is deeper than the 12v. It should fit with new
>> mounts though (eventually)
>
> I'm mostly aware of "standard" problems of fitting 24V engine in GTV6 -
> question is should i expect new problems concerning 4WD of Q4, eg. do
> "standard" 164 24V engine and Q4 engine look the same from gearbox side ?

Good point. Sorry I have no idea but I should think so.
<snip>
>
> I would appreciate that, but i couldn't find them at

www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk/catman.html

Not really got round to doing the technical analysis but the pics are there

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS (two off)
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

"Catman" > wrote in message
...

> > A bit above 1000 EUR. Car is not completely ok, and can't pass TUV (in
> > Germany), but engine is running ok, and engine (and management) is what
I
> > need.
>
> I will be very surprised if you can do it for that, even allowing for the
> difference in labour rates. Are you doing all this yourself?

I'm only talking about the price for Q4. And no, I'm not going to do the
work myself.

Mario

In article >,
"Mario Orsolic" > wrote:

> Hello all !
>
> I have 2 GTVs, 1 is GTV6 2.5 (in very bad condition), and other is GTV2.0,
> in decent condition. My plan is to use 2.0 chasis and put in an 3.0 24V
> engine from 164Q4, which I could get relatively cheap (complete car).
> So my questions would be:
>
> Am i facing only "usuall" 24V conversion problems, or are there some new
> issues regarding 4WD of Q4 ?

The main issues you will have are associated with making things fit. For
instance, you cannot fit the 24-valve engine with the stock hydraulic
master cylinder/booster unit. It just won't clear the cam covers. Some
replace it with a Spider unit, which is smaller in diameter, although I
don't know how well that works. I do know that even with a smaller
booster, the oil-fill cap will still end-up underneath it and almost
impossible to reach. You'll need a long-necked funnel to add oil.
Secondly, GTV-6/Milano exhaust manifolds will not fit the 24-valve head
and the ones off of the 164 won't work because they are shaped wrong
-some engineering is required there. The intake manifold will have to be
modified extensively by welding a "U" shaped piece of pipe on to it to
turn the input around 180 degrees. If you don't, the air cleaner will
end up in the glove box (on a left-hand drive car) or behind the
dashboard of a right-hooker (where it likely won't fit).

Luckily, there's no distributor with the Motronic ECU system in the 164Q
and the lower block is the same as the block on a 3.0 Liter 75 (Milano)
'Verde.' so an oil pan from one of those will fit fine. You just have to
drill and tap some holes.

Forget the 4-wheel drive. There is simply no practical way to get that
24-valve V-6 into an Alfetta chassis sideways so that you can use the
4-wheel drive. Of course, enough money thrown at the problem will solve
it, but its up to you whether its worth it or not.

> Since GTV2.0 have 4 hole wheels, and i plan to use Q4 alloys, is it possible
> to transfer hubs from GTV6 ?

Yes it is possible, except for the hubs the 2.0 liter Alfetta GTV and
the GTV-6 are virtually identical suspension-wise. Take the GTV-6
transaxel and the entire GTV-6 Di Dion rear suspension though to handle
the power.

> I would like to have LSD diferrential, so seems I will have to put hands on
> 75s one. Question is does 75 2.0TS have LSD ? Could I use complete gearbox
> from it ?

AFAIK, only the Milano (75) 2.5 liter platinum and the 3.O liter Verde
models have LSD.

> Once I manage to fit the engine, I will have some more questions about
> suspension and brakes, so stay tuned.

OK
>
> Tnx,
> Mario, Croatia

--
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart.
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

In article >,
"Mario Orsolic" > wrote:

> "Catman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > *cough* cheap?
>
> A bit above 1000 EUR. Car is not completely ok, and can't pass TUV (in
> Germany), but engine is running ok, and engine (and management) is what I
> need.
>
> > > Am i facing only "usuall" 24V conversion problems, or are there some new
> > > issues regarding 4WD of Q4 ?
> >
> > I think the 24v engine is deeper than the 12v. It should fit with new
> > mounts though (eventually)
>
> I'm mostly aware of "standard" problems of fitting 24V engine in GTV6 -
> question is should i expect new problems concerning 4WD of Q4, eg. do
> "standard" 164 24V engine and Q4 engine look the same from gearbox side ?
>
> > Are you planning on making this AWD??
>
> Definitely not.
> But that open another question: i could probably run into trouble if engine
> management relies on some specific 4WD input which i will not be able to
> provide.
>
> > > Since GTV2.0 have 4 hole wheels, and i plan to use Q4 alloys, is it
> > > possible to transfer hubs from GTV6 ?
> >
> > You'd probably better finding a transaxle from a V6 and using that whole,
> > together with front components from another V6
>
> Well, alternative is to find a nice 75V6 and transfer everything, but since
> I used to drive and 164Q4 few years ago, I like the idea of same power.

You can easily achieve the same power with a 3.O Liter 75 'Verde"
engine. I think it's a better deal because it's virtually a drop in to a
GTV-6 from a standpoint of intake runners, exhaust headers, clearance
issues, etc. Port and relieve the engine, buy an aftermarket ECU or have
the L-Jettronic unit modified, use larger injectors, have a free-flow
exhaust system fabricated and you should be able to easily get to within
a few HP of the 164 24-valve engine. The 2-valve is a better engine too
(IMHO) as the 164 24 valve had valve train problems and tended to throw
timing bselts. Alfa re-designed the thing in 1996, and 6-cylinders form
156 and 166s are fine.

--
George Graves
------------------

Bush is a poor leader because he isn't very smart.
What's Kerry's excuse gonna be?

"George Graves" > wrote in message
...


> Luckily, there's no distributor with the Motronic ECU system in the 164Q
> and the lower block is the same as the block on a 3.0 Liter 75 (Milano)
> 'Verde.' so an oil pan from one of those will fit fine.

Just to make things clear: oil pan from GTV6 2.5 will fit ?

> Forget the 4-wheel drive. There is simply no practical way to get that
> 24-valve V-6 into an Alfetta chassis sideways so that you can use the
> 4-wheel drive. Of course, enough money thrown at the problem will solve
> it, but its up to you whether its worth it or not.

I was never thinking of 4WD.

Thanks a lot.

Mario

"George Graves" > wrote in message
...

> You can easily achieve the same power with a 3.O Liter 75 'Verde"
> engine.

That was my first idea - but i simply couldn't find wrecked 75.

Mario

Dans l'article >, Catman
>a écrit :

>> I would like to have LSD diferrential, so seems I will have to put hands
>> on 75s one. Question is does 75 2.0TS have LSD ? Could I use complete
>> gearbox from it ?
>
>AIUI the TS does not have an LSD. Also the gearing is a bit lower. This
>would make for a brisk car

in France the 75 2.0TS is with a lsd differential, the same is on the 75 turbo.
(Limited Slip to 20%)
Bruno.