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#31
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#32
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"DTJ" > wrote in message ... > On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:25:41 -0500, "Ray O" > > wrote: > >>This is true, however, of the 100 or so dealerships I've personally dealt >>with, I'd say 70% were technically good, another 25% were excellent, and >>the >>remaining 5% were poor. The proportions of good, excellent, and poor >>technicians who worked at the dealerships is probably about the same. >>Your >>chances of getting good service on your Toyota at a Toyota dealer are at >>least as good and probably better than your chances of getting that same >>level of technical competence at an independent shop. > > Statistically this is invalid. First, it is unlikely that so many are > "excellent" while so few are "poor". More likely is that you are > rating them unfairly, and too generously. > It would be invalid statistically if both the dealer and the independent hired everyone who applied for a job without any screening and if they paid the same. This is not the case. Dealers generally hire either experienced technicians or someone with a formal education in automotive technology, generaly through the Toyota Technical Education Network partnership with selected trade schools and community colleges. Remember that the biggest single customers most dealers have is the manufcturers through warranty repairs and manufacturers do not pay warranty claims for repairs that do not work. Problems with customers cars must be diagnosed with an explanation of the cause of the failure written. If a technician replaces a $1000 ECU and the problem still exists, the dealer will not get reimbursed for the repair. Indepenent shops have the luxury of telling the customer to "take it to the dealer" if they cannot diagnose a problem. Dealers do not have that luxury and so they invest a lot of time and money sending their techicians to factory classes. > Second, there is no factual basis to assume that the idiots hired by a > dealer are more intelligent than the idiots hired by an independent > shop. In reality, the reverse is true. The reason to go to the > dealer is not because they somehow know how to hire better mechanics, > but because they have more reason to stand by their repairs when they > fail. > Actually most dealer service managers do know how to hire better technicians. Dealer service managers also attend factory sponsored service management classes and Toyota's (and other manufacturers as well) apprenticeship program provides techs with formal training beyond what someone would learn in high school shop (which is basically nothing). > Personally when I need service, I generally use a dealer, if and only > if I can't do it myself, or the cost is so low as to not be worth my > time. I double check their work as much as I would if I took it to an > independent shop. And in the hundreds of places that have worked on > my vehicles, almost every problem has been at a dealer. That includes > adjusting for frequency. If you do your own work on your cars and you still have taken them to hundreds of places, your cars must need a lot that you cannot do, you have a lot of cars, your cars have a lot or problems, you move around a lot, or you have not built a rapport with someone. Your experience with problems with service at a dealership do not fit the manufacturer's data. If you go to an independent for oil changes, tune-up, brakes, etc. and go to a dealership for an intermittent drivability problem that the independent won't touch, then of course the dealership will have a lower batting average. When you choose a dealership service department, choose one that has received the manufacturer's Service Excellence Award multiple times - your chances of getting good work done are a lot higher. -- Ray O correct the return address punctuation to reply |
#33
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"DTJ" > wrote in message ... > > I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban > legend you hear on the Internet. I hate to tell you this, but I sell auto parts for a living, and I have seen many people come in holding parts of a timing belt, needing a new one. I usually tell them they are going to need more work than just a belt, but people like to try the cheap before spending big time cash. I had a timing belt on a volveo strip the teeth off at the crank while I was leaning over it trying to figure out why it was running like crap.(I figured it out then) Bernard of course, I am posting this in USENET, so it still could pass for your urban myth, based on that |
#34
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On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 20:35:28 -0700, "Bernard Farquart"
> wrote: >"DTJ" > wrote in message .. . >> >> I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban >> legend you hear on the Internet. > >I hate to tell you this, but I sell auto parts for a living, >and I have seen many people come in holding parts of a >timing belt, needing a new one. I usually tell them they >are going to need more work than just a belt, >but people like to try the cheap before spending >big time cash. > >I had a timing belt on a volveo strip the teeth off at the >crank while I was leaning over it trying to figure out >why it was running like crap.(I figured it out then) > >Bernard > >of course, I am posting this in USENET, so it >still could pass for your urban myth, based on that It could. But I have faith in your honesty. Still, as you know, your "data" does not a survey make. While I admit that it is likely that your experience will hold true across a larger sample, it is possible that the area you work in is more prone to belt failure, or that you have a lot more people who drive harder, or have higher mileage cars, or something else. In any case, I have yet to hear of a failure, and I am not about to shell out a grand for Honda to replace it. 165000 miles and counting, on a car that gets driven harder than 90% of vehicles on the road. I frequently do over 80MPH, commonly over 90, and I would guess about once a month I break 100. Now, there is a greater chance it will break soon due to my having replaced the radiator, but not the fans, and thus it is running hotter than normal. So you have peaked my interest. |
#35
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"DTJ" > wrote in message news > It could. But I have faith in your honesty. > > Still, as you know, your "data" does not a survey make. While I admit > that it is likely that your experience will hold true across a larger > sample, it is possible that the area you work in is more prone to belt > failure, or that you have a lot more people who drive harder, or have > higher mileage cars, or something else. In any case, I have yet to > hear of a failure, and I am not about to shell out a grand for Honda > to replace it. 165000 miles and counting, on a car that gets driven > harder than 90% of vehicles on the road. I frequently do over 80MPH, > commonly over 90, and I would guess about once a month I break 100. > > Now, there is a greater chance it will break soon due to my having > replaced the radiator, but not the fans, and thus it is running hotter > than normal. So you have peaked my interest. I also had a tensioner falure in my 928, this caused one of the camshaft gears to slip 30 degrees, this is supposed to cause massive engine damage at more than 5 degrees, but since I had to move the car, I put a new tensioner on and replaced the belt, and viola! it fired right up, so some interference engines can escape damage, if your "car-ma" is good enough. I really don't have an explination for my luck on that one. A thousand bucks seems silly for that service, but I suppose it is possible, have you done much shopping around? I personally have little faith in the dealership's service department, I find that an independant shop that has been around for a long time may be a better bet, but you can get burned anywhere.(it seems) If you are in the Seattle area, I can recommend some excellent shops. If it were me, I would swap the belt, if you plan on keeping the car for a long time. Bernard |
#36
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"DTJ" > wrote in message news > On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 20:35:28 -0700, "Bernard Farquart" > > wrote: > >>"DTJ" > wrote in message . .. >>> >>> I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban >>> legend you hear on the Internet. >> >>I hate to tell you this, but I sell auto parts for a living, >>and I have seen many people come in holding parts of a >>timing belt, needing a new one. I usually tell them they >>are going to need more work than just a belt, >>but people like to try the cheap before spending >>big time cash. >> >>I had a timing belt on a volveo strip the teeth off at the >>crank while I was leaning over it trying to figure out >>why it was running like crap.(I figured it out then) >> >>Bernard >> >>of course, I am posting this in USENET, so it >>still could pass for your urban myth, based on that > > It could. But I have faith in your honesty. > > Still, as you know, your "data" does not a survey make. While I admit > that it is likely that your experience will hold true across a larger > sample, it is possible that the area you work in is more prone to belt > failure, or that you have a lot more people who drive harder, or have > higher mileage cars, or something else. In any case, I have yet to > hear of a failure, and I am not about to shell out a grand for Honda > to replace it. 165000 miles and counting, on a car that gets driven > harder than 90% of vehicles on the road. I frequently do over 80MPH, > commonly over 90, and I would guess about once a month I break 100. > > Now, there is a greater chance it will break soon due to my having > replaced the radiator, but not the fans, and thus it is running hotter > than normal. So you have peaked my interest. I don't have much Honda experience, but I also have seen timing belts break many times. I have never seen one break before 1.5 times the recommended change interval, more often the ones I saw were around double the recommended interval. I have seen timing chains break as well, but not nearly as often and not in the past 10 or 15 years or so. -- Ray O correct the return address punctuation to reply |
#37
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"Ray O" > wrote in message ervers.com... > I don't have much Honda experience, but I also have seen timing belts > break many times. I have never seen one break before 1.5 times the > recommended change interval, more often the ones I saw were around double > the recommended interval. I have seen timing chains break as well, but > not nearly as often and not in the past 10 or 15 years or so. Those lovely GM timing chain sets from the 60's made of aluminum and nylon didnt hold up too well. |
#38
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Bernard Farquart wrote: > " dude your name is funny as hell. ROTFLMAOUMSH |
#39
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"Learning Richard" > wrote in message oups.com... > > > Bernard Farquart wrote: >> " > > dude your name is funny as hell. > > ROTFLMAOUMSH > Whatever I can do to help. |
#40
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Bernard Farquart wrote:
> "Ray O" > wrote in message > ervers.com... > >> I don't have much Honda experience, but I also have seen timing belts >> break many times. I have never seen one break before 1.5 times the >> recommended change interval, more often the ones I saw were around >> double the recommended interval. I have seen timing chains break as >> well, but not nearly as often and not in the past 10 or 15 years or >> so. > > Those lovely GM timing chain sets from the 60's made of aluminum > and nylon didnt hold up too well. All of the big 3 had this type timing gears. It was a royal pain when the teeth stripped off. If you did the job right you removed the oil pan to get all the little pieces out so they wouldn't clog the oil pump pick-up tube. A lot of them were done without removing pan in hopes "car-ma" (I like your pun) was with them. Many suffered oil flow problems afterwards. davidj92 |
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