Aftermarket Exhaust Ban

On Wed, 04 May 2005 12:53:18 -0500,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, Matthew Russotto wrote:
>
>> Pollution controls have nothing to do with the proposed law. It is claimed to
>> be a way to reduce street racing.
>
>Figures. Amish kids street race horse drawn wagons.

Yeah, but they're very strict about only using factory spec horses.


>If it moves, it will
>be raced.
>

Jim Yanik wrote:
> Scott en Aztl=E1n > wrote in
> :
>
> > On Tue, 3 May 2005 11:42:30 -0700, "fbloogyudsr"
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Actually, it's not noise that is the issue, but pollution controls,
> >>because things like cats, oxygen sensors, plumbing length and
> >>back pressure all affect whether it will pass emissions.
> >
> > But we already have laws that require cars to pass emissions. The
only
> > reason to pass this new law is to cut down on noise pollution.
> >
> >
>
> And a good reason.

You're missing the point. If the after market mfg just has to meet OEM
specs, what's to say that an OEM spec may not be super loud? Then what
recourse do you have?

This is simple, if you want to limit noise, then limit dB levels, not
who makes the damn thing.

"Larry Bud" > wrote in
oups.com:

>
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> Scott en Aztlán > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > On Tue, 3 May 2005 11:42:30 -0700, "fbloogyudsr"
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>Actually, it's not noise that is the issue, but pollution controls,
>> >>because things like cats, oxygen sensors, plumbing length and
>> >>back pressure all affect whether it will pass emissions.
>> >
>> > But we already have laws that require cars to pass emissions. The
> only
>> > reason to pass this new law is to cut down on noise pollution.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> And a good reason.
>
> You're missing the point. If the after market mfg just has to meet OEM
> specs, what's to say that an OEM spec may not be super loud?

The fact that it would repel most potential purchasers.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Wed, 04 May 2005 05:47:28 -0400, Nate Nagel >
wrote:

>> There are plenty of inexpensive mufflers that meet (or exceed) factory
>> specs.
>
>Not for, say, a VW or Porsche where the muffler is integrated into a
>custom-bent pipe.

How is this a problem? The factory exhaust is going to last for many,
many years. You'll probably sell the car before the muffler wears (or
rusts) out. And even if you keep the car, you have several years to
save up for that factory spec replacement.

>But they'd still be technically illegal. I don't want to "get away
>with" anything, I want to be legal.

Fine - then buy the factory spec system.

>I already went through this with an inspection "mechanic" here - the
>"suitcase" muffler on the girlie's Corrado had a small rust hole in it
>and he said that it had to be replaced. That part alone from a VW
>dealer was over $300 last time I checked.

Here, let me call a WAAAAAAAAmbulance for your girlie.

You don't buy a Corvette and then bitch when the tires last 10,000
miles and cost $1400 for a set of 4 to replace. You don't buy a BMW
and then bitch when the brake rotors are super-thin to save weight -
so thin that they cannot be turned and must be replaced every time you
replace the pads and cost $150 each. If you can't afford the
replacement parts, then buy a less expensive car.

In article >, Scott en Aztlán wrote:

> How is this a problem? The factory exhaust is going to last for many,
> many years. You'll probably sell the car before the muffler wears (or
> rusts) out. And even if you keep the car, you have several years to
> save up for that factory spec replacement.

Assinine. Better to leave an exhaust system full of holes. It's "stock"
than be restricted to a sole source.

>>But they'd still be technically illegal. I don't want to "get away
>>with" anything, I want to be legal.

> Fine - then buy the factory spec system.

Why don't you just mandate dealer-only service right down to the oil
while you're at it?

>>I already went through this with an inspection "mechanic" here - the
>>"suitcase" muffler on the girlie's Corrado had a small rust hole in it
>>and he said that it had to be replaced. That part alone from a VW
>>dealer was over $300 last time I checked.

> Here, let me call a WAAAAAAAAmbulance for your girlie.

> You don't buy a Corvette and then bitch when the tires last 10,000
> miles and cost $1400 for a set of 4 to replace.

What if you restricted to one make and model of tires? You'd pay more
right now. With the restriction, expect to pay at least double,

> You don't buy a BMW
> and then bitch when the brake rotors are super-thin to save weight -
> so thin that they cannot be turned and must be replaced every time you
> replace the pads and cost $150 each.

One can buy aftermarket brake rotors too ya know.

> If you can't afford the replacement parts, then buy a less expensive car.

For many makes and models, replacement after market parts are cheaper and
better.

Scott en Aztlán wrote:

> You don't buy a Corvette and then bitch when the tires last 10,000
> miles and cost $1400 for a set of 4 to replace.

I priced tires for a 2005 C6 convertible with the sport handling package
and got prices around $800 to $900 for a set of 4. Still, that's really
expensive. I got a set of 4 Bridgestone Blizzacks *mounted on 4 alloy
rims* for $800 3 years ago.

On Wed, 04 May 2005 23:54:57 -0500,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, Scott en Aztlán wrote:
>
>> How is this a problem? The factory exhaust is going to last for many,
>> many years. You'll probably sell the car before the muffler wears (or
>> rusts) out. And even if you keep the car, you have several years to
>> save up for that factory spec replacement.
>
>Assinine. Better to leave an exhaust system full of holes. It's "stock"
>than be restricted to a sole source.

Exhaust systems with holes are loud. That would be in violation of the
law.

>> You don't buy a Corvette and then bitch when the tires last 10,000
>> miles and cost $1400 for a set of 4 to replace.
>
>What if you restricted to one make and model of tires?

AFAIK, only Goodyear makes runflats in those specific sizes right now.
So effectively I *am* restricted to one make and model of tire, at
least for the moment.

>> You don't buy a BMW
>> and then bitch when the brake rotors are super-thin to save weight -
>> so thin that they cannot be turned and must be replaced every time you
>> replace the pads and cost $150 each.
>
>One can buy aftermarket brake rotors too ya know.

Yet they still meet factory specs.

BTW, here is the text of the proposed law. It seems pretty clear to me
that this is aimed squarely at reducing noise pollution. Seems to me
an aftermarket exhaust that's as quiet as a stock system would be
fully in compliance. The only people that lose under this law are
those who wish to make a lot of noise, to which I say "tough ****."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF PENNSYLVANIA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOUSE BILL
No. 1330 Session of 2005


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


INTRODUCED BY HANNA, BEBKO-JONES, CALTAGIRONE, GILLESPIE, JAMES,
W. KELLER, KOTIK, LEDERER, LESCOVITZ, PISTELLA, PRESTON,
THOMAS AND YOUNGBLOOD, APRIL 12, 2005


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION, APRIL 12, 2005


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AN ACT

1 Amending Title 75 (Vehicles) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated
2 Statutes, further providing for exhaust systems, mufflers and
3 noise control.

4 The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
5 hereby enacts as follows:
6 Section 1. Section 4523 of Title 75 of the Pennsylvania
7 Consolidated Statutes is amended to read:
8 § 4523. Exhaust systems, mufflers and noise control.
9 (a) Compliance with established sound levels.--Every motor
10 vehicle operated on a highway shall be constructed, equipped,
11 maintained and operated so as not to exceed the sound level for
12 the vehicle as prescribed in regulations promulgated by the
13 department. The test procedures and instrumentation to be
14 utilized shall also be established by regulation.
15 (b) Compliance with exhaust requirements.--In addition to
16 any requirements established under sections 4531 (relating to
17 emission control systems) and 4532 (relating to smoke control
18 for diesel-powered motor vehicles), every motor vehicle shall be


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 constructed, equipped, maintained and operated so as to prevent
2 engine exhaust gases from penetrating and collecting in any part
3 of the vehicle occupied by the driver or passengers.
4 (c) Mufflers and related equipment.--Every motor vehicle
5 shall be equipped with a [muffler] factory-installed muffler, a
6 muffler meeting factory specifications or other effective noise
7 suppressing system in good working order [and], in constant
8 operation and in compliance with the maximum noise levels
9 permitted under subsection (a). No muffler or exhaust system
10 shall be equipped with a cutout, bypass or similar device.
11 (d) Unauthorized modification of equipment.--No person shall
12 modify the exhaust system of a motor vehicle in a manner which
13 will amplify or increase the noise emitted by the motor of the
14 vehicle above the maximum levels permitted under subsection (a)
15 or violate the provisions of subsection (b) or (c). Headers and
16 side exhausts are permitted provided the vehicle meets all the
17 requirements of this section.
18 (e) Fire equipment and racing vehicles.--This section does
19 not apply to fire equipment or to racing vehicles being operated
20 in an organized racing or competitive event conducted under a
21 permit issued by local authorities.
22 Section 2. This act shall take effect in 60 days.

On Thu, 05 May 2005 07:58:54 GMT, Arif Khokar >
wrote:

>> You don't buy a Corvette and then bitch when the tires last 10,000
>> miles and cost $1400 for a set of 4 to replace.
>
>I priced tires for a 2005 C6 convertible with the sport handling package
>and got prices around $800 to $900 for a set of 4.

For runflats? Where?!?!!

In article >, Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Wed, 04 May 2005 23:54:57 -0500,
> (Brent P) wrote:
>
>>In article >, Scott en Aztlán wrote:
>>
>>> How is this a problem? The factory exhaust is going to last for many,
>>> many years. You'll probably sell the car before the muffler wears (or
>>> rusts) out. And even if you keep the car, you have several years to
>>> save up for that factory spec replacement.
>>
>>Assinine. Better to leave an exhaust system full of holes. It's "stock"
>>than be restricted to a sole source.
>
> Exhaust systems with holes are loud. That would be in violation of the
> law.

Stock system. not violating this new law.

>>> You don't buy a Corvette and then bitch when the tires last 10,000
>>> miles and cost $1400 for a set of 4 to replace.
>>
>>What if you restricted to one make and model of tires?

> AFAIK, only Goodyear makes runflats in those specific sizes right now.
> So effectively I *am* restricted to one make and model of tire, at
> least for the moment.

So you want to force everybody else into similiar situations. For
instance force me into buying under performing overpriced goodyear tires
that were stock on my mustang.

>>> You don't buy a BMW
>>> and then bitch when the brake rotors are super-thin to save weight -
>>> so thin that they cannot be turned and must be replaced every time you
>>> replace the pads and cost $150 each.

>>One can buy aftermarket brake rotors too ya know.
> Yet they still meet factory specs.

And may be of better quality.

Many aftermarket parts cost less

> BTW, here is the text of the proposed law. It seems pretty clear to me
> that this is aimed squarely at reducing noise pollution. Seems to me
> an aftermarket exhaust that's as quiet as a stock system would be
> fully in compliance. The only people that lose under this law are
> those who wish to make a lot of noise, to which I say "tough ****."

Then get a Db meter.

> 4 (c) Mufflers and related equipment.--Every motor vehicle
> 5 shall be equipped with a [muffler] factory-installed muffler, a
> 6 muffler meeting factory specifications or other effective noise
> 7 suppressing system in good working order [and], in constant
> 8 operation and in compliance with the maximum noise levels
> 9 permitted under subsection (a). No muffler or exhaust system
> 10 shall be equipped with a cutout, bypass or similar device.

The cut out is banned instead of the idiotic use of said cut out.

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2005 07:58:54 GMT, Arif Khokar >
> wrote:

>>>You don't buy a Corvette and then bitch when the tires last 10,000
>>>miles and cost $1400 for a set of 4 to replace.

>>I priced tires for a 2005 C6 convertible with the sport handling package
>>and got prices around $800 to $900 for a set of 4.

> For runflats? Where?!?!!

You didn't specify runflats originally, but I found a set for about
$1238. Of course, shipping will probably push the price upt to about
$1300 ...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compar...Only&x=57&y=14