Fuel injector expected lifespan?

Been lurking here for some time, hoping to absorb the rays of knowledge
emitted by (some) posters (Comboverfish...? This is a Honda problem...).

Now I have a problem that is sufficiently obscure as to flummox those I
depend on most. The problem is also sufficiently annoying to cause me to
crawl out from under that rock over there and post this message over here.

The problem seems to have to do with fuel delivery. The car is a 1991 Acura
Integra with 266,000 miles on it. The injectors are original.

Within the last few weeks, I've had work done on the car to address
vibration issues. It turned out the car had three layers of problems:
1) Badly mounted tires. That was fixed.
2) Worn inner CV joints (original). That was fixed.
Once the preceding two sources of vibration were eliminated, a third arose:
3) Originally, when accelerating hard from about 3,000 RPM, a fine
vibration that is probably better described as a "harshness" arose and
more-or-less stayed throughout throughout the engine's remaining rev range.

The vibration occured on moderate to heavy acceleration, and stops
completely when you lift your foot off the gas (at which point the
injectors usually shut off, depending on engine speed).

Last weekend I had a Motorvac service done on advice (not from Terry Dyson)
that one injector was probably a bit gummed up. Well, the service made the
problem WORSE. Now it appears at ANY engine speed. Worse at larger throttle
openings, better at smaller.

Terry Dyson at Dyson Analysis says the numbers from my last oil analysis
show that the engine is likely still in pretty good shape, except that it's
getting overfueled (there's gas in the oil). The ignition is all fairly new
and makes a nice blue spark, so he surmises that I've got a fuel problem.

Again pursuant to the oil test results, Terry Dyson also figures I've got
oil control rings that are gummy. It sort of makes sense. I'm now (with the
warmer weather) burning a quart of oil in less than 2,000 miles. Yet my
soot numbers are very low, suggesting slight blowby. It seems the oil rings
are not draining properly, and so oil is getting pumped up into the
combustion chamber.

So, finally, to my ultimate question: Has any knowledgeable poster ever
seen Honda injectors wear unevenly to the point that they inconsistently
fuel the engine, or have they ever seen vibration occur from gum and ring
deposits?



--
TeGGeR®

I would check the pcv system, it might be faulty, leaking / plugged,
creating a contamination problem, the motor supports could be loose -
shot, and if you had the flush service done on the injectors / throttle
body cleaned, injectors inspected, this is what I would check first.

you might need to get a second opinion.

mho
vƒe

>presently, a $1k more / year for gas - based on 12k miles of driving.
Get involved.

wrote in news:8828-4456AFCD-50@storefull-
3315.bay.webtv.net:

> I would check the pcv system, it might be faulty, leaking / plugged,
> creating a contamination problem,



't'ain't. I checked. That was the first thing Dyson advised me to check.
She's squeaky clean.



>the motor supports could be loose -
> shot,



Been checked, They're fine.



> and if you had the flush service done on the injectors / throttle
> body cleaned, injectors inspected, this is what I would check first.



Yeah, which is what I said to begin with. TB is clean. There was no oil
present.



>
> you might need to get a second opinion.



Yup. It should be yawningly obvious why I came here, no?





--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

how does the under surface of the oil filler cap - look?

what is the primary problem you are trying to overcome, vibration /
hesitation?

if gasoline is in the oil sump, how did it get there, other than from a
leaking fuel injector or bad ignition problems?

mho
vƒe

>presently, a $1k more / year for gas - based on 12k miles of driving.
Get involved.

Are my ears burning? Hey, Tegger!
Thought I'd reply even though I don't have an experience-based answer
on your Integra 1.8L specifically.

Firstly, if a Motorvac service, all by itself, *did* make a noticeable
difference in drivability for the worst, then I would suspect fuel
delivery components. This would basically include injectors,
regulator, filter, and fuel rail. Realistically, you injectors are
what have probably suffered from the dislodging of crap around their
pintles into the spray holes at each injector's tip. This will cause a
less than ideal spray pattern (important on multi-port injection
delivery systems), which will result in unburned gas making it's way
into the oil via the piston rings.

With 266k on the clock, you can bet that the oil rings are carboned up
somewhat -- regardless of how well you cared for the vehicle. This is
previous Honda experience talking. If you aren't using a significant
amount of oil then I would generally advise you to forgo an expensive
overhaul, though. One quart in 2000 miles is not bad for your mileage,
but still a borderline call on an overhaul.

Regarding your concern about "vibration caused from gum and ring
deposits" -- no. The cause and effect from that would be farther apart
than, say, linking Kevin Bacon to Nipsey Russell in Six Degrees of
Separation.

As far as diagnosing injectors is concerned, I feel that they are the
last item to consider replacing after all other tests have been made.
Some really sharp techs can spot a fuel delivery issue with a scope
test of the ignition, but on an engine with your miles it would be
difficult to rule out all of the other variables because of worn
components skewing the ignition trace. I would first look at the O2
sensor while driving to see if the car was in fuel control. Then I
would check the main sensor inputs (MAP, CTS, and TPS) and clean the
ground terminal on the thermostat housing. Then I would check
compression and leakdown if there was still concern. If everything
looked good I might be willing to shotgun a set of injectors.

Check out Linder Tech -- www.lindertech.com -- for a quality set of
remans. This is basically the only place you can trust short of
getting a new set at the dealer.

I have never been burned by installing injectors to fix a complaint. I
do check everything possible first though, to "eliminate the obvious".
It should be mentioned that I rarely replace injectors. It should also
be mentioned that I rarely work on a car with 266K

Toyota MDT in MO


TeGGeR® wrote:
> Been lurking here for some time, hoping to absorb the rays of knowledge
> emitted by (some) posters (Comboverfish...? This is a Honda problem...).
>
> Now I have a problem that is sufficiently obscure as to flummox those I
> depend on most. The problem is also sufficiently annoying to cause me to
> crawl out from under that rock over there and post this message over here.
>
> The problem seems to have to do with fuel delivery. The car is a 1991 Acura
> Integra with 266,000 miles on it. The injectors are original.
>
> Within the last few weeks, I've had work done on the car to address
> vibration issues. It turned out the car had three layers of problems:
> 1) Badly mounted tires. That was fixed.
> 2) Worn inner CV joints (original). That was fixed.
> Once the preceding two sources of vibration were eliminated, a third arose:
> 3) Originally, when accelerating hard from about 3,000 RPM, a fine
> vibration that is probably better described as a "harshness" arose and
> more-or-less stayed throughout throughout the engine's remaining rev range.
>
> The vibration occured on moderate to heavy acceleration, and stops
> completely when you lift your foot off the gas (at which point the
> injectors usually shut off, depending on engine speed).
>
> Last weekend I had a Motorvac service done on advice (not from Terry Dyson)
> that one injector was probably a bit gummed up. Well, the service made the
> problem WORSE. Now it appears at ANY engine speed. Worse at larger throttle
> openings, better at smaller.
>
> Terry Dyson at Dyson Analysis says the numbers from my last oil analysis
> show that the engine is likely still in pretty good shape, except that it's
> getting overfueled (there's gas in the oil). The ignition is all fairly new
> and makes a nice blue spark, so he surmises that I've got a fuel problem.
>
> Again pursuant to the oil test results, Terry Dyson also figures I've got
> oil control rings that are gummy. It sort of makes sense. I'm now (with the
> warmer weather) burning a quart of oil in less than 2,000 miles. Yet my
> soot numbers are very low, suggesting slight blowby. It seems the oil rings
> are not draining properly, and so oil is getting pumped up into the
> combustion chamber.
>
> So, finally, to my ultimate question: Has any knowledgeable poster ever
> seen Honda injectors wear unevenly to the point that they inconsistently
> fuel the engine, or have they ever seen vibration occur from gum and ring
> deposits?
>
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®

"TeGGeR®" > wrote in message
...
> Been lurking here for some time, hoping to absorb the rays of knowledge
> emitted by (some) posters (Comboverfish...? This is a Honda problem...).
>
> Now I have a problem that is sufficiently obscure as to flummox those I
> depend on most. The problem is also sufficiently annoying to cause me to
> crawl out from under that rock over there and post this message over here.
>
> The problem seems to have to do with fuel delivery. The car is a 1991
Acura
> Integra with 266,000 miles on it. The injectors are original.
>
> Within the last few weeks, I've had work done on the car to address
> vibration issues. It turned out the car had three layers of problems:
> 1) Badly mounted tires. That was fixed.
> 2) Worn inner CV joints (original). That was fixed.
> Once the preceding two sources of vibration were eliminated, a third
arose:
> 3) Originally, when accelerating hard from about 3,000 RPM, a fine
> vibration that is probably better described as a "harshness" arose and
> more-or-less stayed throughout throughout the engine's remaining rev
range.
>
> The vibration occured on moderate to heavy acceleration, and stops
> completely when you lift your foot off the gas (at which point the
> injectors usually shut off, depending on engine speed).
>
> Last weekend I had a Motorvac service done on advice (not from Terry
Dyson)
> that one injector was probably a bit gummed up. Well, the service made the
> problem WORSE. Now it appears at ANY engine speed. Worse at larger
throttle
> openings, better at smaller.
>
> Terry Dyson at Dyson Analysis says the numbers from my last oil analysis
> show that the engine is likely still in pretty good shape, except that
it's
> getting overfueled (there's gas in the oil). The ignition is all fairly
new
> and makes a nice blue spark, so he surmises that I've got a fuel problem.
>
> Again pursuant to the oil test results, Terry Dyson also figures I've got
> oil control rings that are gummy. It sort of makes sense. I'm now (with
the
> warmer weather) burning a quart of oil in less than 2,000 miles. Yet my
> soot numbers are very low, suggesting slight blowby. It seems the oil
rings
> are not draining properly, and so oil is getting pumped up into the
> combustion chamber.
>
> So, finally, to my ultimate question: Has any knowledgeable poster ever
> seen Honda injectors wear unevenly to the point that they inconsistently
> fuel the engine, or have they ever seen vibration occur from gum and ring
> deposits?
>
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>

It should be fairly easy to diagnose the injectors with a pressure drop
method. Also check fuel pressure and volume. From the fuel in oil symptom I
would suspect either leaky injector or leaking fuel pressure regulator
diaphragm. Both are easy to diagnose.


--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green

"Comboverfish" > wrote in
oups.com:

> Are my ears burning? Hey, Tegger!
> Thought I'd reply even though I don't have an experience-based answer
> on your Integra 1.8L specifically.



Thanks for the reply. I was hoping you'd answer.


>
> Firstly, if a Motorvac service, all by itself, *did* make a noticeable
> difference in drivability for the worst, then I would suspect fuel
> delivery components. This would basically include injectors,
> regulator, filter, and fuel rail. Realistically, you injectors are
> what have probably suffered from the dislodging of crap around their
> pintles into the spray holes at each injector's tip. This will cause
> a less than ideal spray pattern (important on multi-port injection
> delivery systems), which will result in unburned gas making it's way
> into the oil via the piston rings.



This certainly makes sense. It happened *immediately* afterwards.

The experience was a disaster. The tech didn't hook up at the fuel filter,
he did the connections at the fuel pump. In the process, he broke a fuel
line, then he wrecked my back seat. The manager refunded my money plus I
got $60 of store merchandise for free to make up for it.

It makes me wonder what else he messed up.



>
> As far as diagnosing injectors is concerned, I feel that they are the
> last item to consider replacing after all other tests have been made.
> Some really sharp techs
> can spot a fuel delivery issue with a scope
> test of the ignition, but on an engine with your miles it would be
> difficult to rule out all of the other variables because of worn
> components skewing the ignition trace. I would first look at the O2
> sensor while driving to see if the car was in fuel control. Then I
> would check the main sensor inputs (MAP, CTS, and TPS) and clean the
> ground terminal on the thermostat housing. Then I would check
> compression and leakdown if there was still concern. If everything
> looked good I might be willing to shotgun a set of injectors.



There is a side issue with a slightly high idle. Sometimes it sits at 800-
850, and takes a while to settle back down to 750. That problem was worse
in cold weather. I also had elevated CO in my last emissions test. Still
passed, but there's clearly a problem there.




>
> Check out Linder Tech -- www.lindertech.com -- for a quality set of
> remans. This is basically the only place you can trust short of
> getting a new set at the dealer.



Thanks for the link. I may need that.

I'm going to get one more Motorvac done (at a different place) and see what
happens. I'm also gettng the fuel filter replaced and the fuel pressure
checked tomorrow morning.

Thanks again, Comboverfish.


--
TeGGeR®

"Kevin" > wrote in
news:1zD5g.61302$gE.57454@dukeread06:

>
> "TeGGeR®" > wrote in message
> ...

>>
>> So, finally, to my ultimate question: Has any knowledgeable poster
>> ever seen Honda injectors wear unevenly to the point that they
>> inconsistently fuel the engine, or have they ever seen vibration
>> occur from gum and ring deposits?
>>
>>
>>
>
> It should be fairly easy to diagnose the injectors with a pressure
> drop method.



I take it that would be done at the pressure gauge while the engine is
running?



> Also check fuel pressure and volume. From the fuel in oil
> symptom I would suspect either leaky injector or leaking fuel pressure
> regulator diaphragm. Both are easy to diagnose.



And my regular guy doesn't want to do it, which is bizarre, since he's been
wonderful over the last 25 years.

I'm getting the pressure and filter looked at tomorrow.

I just checked the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator right now.
There's a slight smell of fuel...



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

An injector pressure drop test is done with the engine off. First
install a fuel pressure gauge. Then each injector is opened
electrically for an exact (short) duration, then the pressure drop is
read at the gauge. Finally all pressure drop readings are compared.
If there is a difference, you can suspect blockage in the injector or
rail area that has the least pressure drop. I take this test with a
grain of salt. Maybe I've had bad luck with it, but it hasn't told me
much in the past. It's like fixing jewelery with a sledge hammer. I
haven't seen a car that showed any significant difference in readings,
or maybe my test method was inaccurate. Whatever. You can't use a
built in scantool injector pressure drop test on old Hond-Curas, so you
would need a specialized injector operator tool, or a timed 12 volt
on/off signal.

If there really is fuel in the regulator vacuum side, the regulator
needs to be replaced. That could be your whole problem. Perhaps the
Motorvac tore the (already) weak diaphram.

Don't get another Motorvac. Fix the problem first.

Toyota MDT in MO

TeGGeR® wrote:
> "Kevin" > wrote in
> news:1zD5g.61302$gE.57454@dukeread06:
>
> >
> > "TeGGeR®" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >>
> >> So, finally, to my ultimate question: Has any knowledgeable poster
> >> ever seen Honda injectors wear unevenly to the point that they
> >> inconsistently fuel the engine, or have they ever seen vibration
> >> occur from gum and ring deposits?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > It should be fairly easy to diagnose the injectors with a pressure
> > drop method.
>
>
>
> I take it that would be done at the pressure gauge while the engine is
> running?
>
>
>
> > Also check fuel pressure and volume. From the fuel in oil
> > symptom I would suspect either leaky injector or leaking fuel pressure
> > regulator diaphragm. Both are easy to diagnose.
>
>
>
> And my regular guy doesn't want to do it, which is bizarre, since he's been
> wonderful over the last 25 years.
>
> I'm getting the pressure and filter looked at tomorrow.
>
> I just checked the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator right now.
> There's a slight smell of fuel...
>
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Comboverfish" > wrote in
oups.com:


>
> If there really is fuel in the regulator vacuum side, the regulator
> needs to be replaced. That could be your whole problem. Perhaps the
> Motorvac tore the (already) weak diaphram.



Would you say that there should be NO smell of fuel AT ALL in the vacuum
line? There was certainly no liquid in the line. I applied vacuum to the
line to see if I could draw liquid out of the regulator. None came out.

I've ordered a new regulator anyway. It's $130. The parts guy tells me
there is exactly ONE left in all of Canada, and I'm getting it.


--
TeGGeR®