If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem
Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - D15B2, if
memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. Kept the original intake and throttle body, all wiring appears to be back where it belongs. Engine was running before, but there was a big nasty crack down the block right behind the #4 cylinder. We're getting spark and compression, but no fuel into the cylinders - plugs come out completely dry even after much cranking. Fuel pump is working, and there's lots of pressure both before and after the forward fuel filter. Haven't checked where the fuel line bolts to the throttle body, but I don't expect there's a problem there either. I'm guessing something is preventing the injectors from working (again, this is the same intake and throttle body that was in the car and working previously). Didn't have any time to troubleshoot it tonight, so we're back at it tomorrow evening, so I thought I'd ask here for some pointers on where to check, what to test, how to determine where the problem may lie - any wires to check for signal or voltage, that sort of thing. Thanks in advance! |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem
Matt Ion > wrote in
newsUzEg.405746$iF6.393198@pd7tw2no: > Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - > D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. > Kept the original intake and throttle body, all wiring appears to be > back where it belongs. Engine was running before, but there was a big > nasty crack down the block right behind the #4 cylinder. > > We're getting spark and compression, but no fuel into the cylinders - > plugs come out completely dry even after much cranking. Fuel pump is > working, and there's lots of pressure both before and after the > forward fuel filter. Haven't checked where the fuel line bolts to the > throttle body, but I don't expect there's a problem there either. > > I'm guessing something is preventing the injectors from working > (again, this is the same intake and throttle body that was in the car > and working previously). Didn't have any time to troubleshoot it > tonight, so we're back at it tomorrow evening, so I thought I'd ask > here for some pointers on where to check, what to test, how to > determine where the problem may lie - any wires to check for signal > or voltage, that sort of thing. > Does the Check Engine light come on for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II", then go off again? Any codes stored in the ECU? Did you reconnect the ECU ground at the thermostat? At the bottom injector, find out which of the two wires is "hot" with the key at "II" (the other one is grounded by the ECU when it wants the injector to turn on). Remove the connector, and carefully hook up a temporary connection from the hot wire to the hot side of the injector, then ground the other side of the injector to the block or some body ground. Does the injector now spray fuel? -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem
TeGGeR® wrote: > Matt Ion > wrote in > newsUzEg.405746$iF6.393198@pd7tw2no: > >> Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - >> D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. >> Kept the original intake and throttle body, all wiring appears to be >> back where it belongs. Engine was running before, but there was a big >> nasty crack down the block right behind the #4 cylinder. >> >> We're getting spark and compression, but no fuel into the cylinders - >> plugs come out completely dry even after much cranking. Fuel pump is >> working, and there's lots of pressure both before and after the >> forward fuel filter. Haven't checked where the fuel line bolts to the >> throttle body, but I don't expect there's a problem there either. >> >> I'm guessing something is preventing the injectors from working >> (again, this is the same intake and throttle body that was in the car >> and working previously). Didn't have any time to troubleshoot it >> tonight, so we're back at it tomorrow evening, so I thought I'd ask >> here for some pointers on where to check, what to test, how to >> determine where the problem may lie - any wires to check for signal >> or voltage, that sort of thing. >> > > > Does the Check Engine light come on for two seconds when the key is > first turned to "II", then go off again? > > Any codes stored in the ECU? > > Did you reconnect the ECU ground at the thermostat? > > At the bottom injector, find out which of the two wires is "hot" with > the key at "II" (the other one is grounded by the ECU when it wants the > injector to turn on). The connector will need to be removed to do this since if the ECU is not actively grounding the ground side, the voltage applied to the 'hot' side will appear at the 'cold' side as well if still connected to the injector. > Remove the connector, and carefully hook up a > temporary connection from the hot wire to the hot side of the injector, > then ground the other side of the injector to the block or some body > ground. Does the injector now spray fuel? -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem
Graham W wrote:
> > TeGGeR® wrote: > >>Matt Ion > wrote in >>newsUzEg.405746$iF6.393198@pd7tw2no: >> >> >>>Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - >>>D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. >>>Kept the original intake and throttle body, all wiring appears to be >>>back where it belongs. Engine was running before, but there was a big >>>nasty crack down the block right behind the #4 cylinder. >>> >>>We're getting spark and compression, but no fuel into the cylinders - >>>plugs come out completely dry even after much cranking. Fuel pump is >>>working, and there's lots of pressure both before and after the >>>forward fuel filter. Haven't checked where the fuel line bolts to the >>>throttle body, but I don't expect there's a problem there either. >>> >>>I'm guessing something is preventing the injectors from working >>>(again, this is the same intake and throttle body that was in the car >>>and working previously). Didn't have any time to troubleshoot it >>>tonight, so we're back at it tomorrow evening, so I thought I'd ask >>>here for some pointers on where to check, what to test, how to >>>determine where the problem may lie - any wires to check for signal >>>or voltage, that sort of thing. >>> >> >> >>Does the Check Engine light come on for two seconds when the key is >>first turned to "II", then go off again? >> >>Any codes stored in the ECU? >> >>Did you reconnect the ECU ground at the thermostat? >> >>At the bottom injector, find out which of the two wires is "hot" with >>the key at "II" (the other one is grounded by the ECU when it wants the >>injector to turn on). > > > The connector will need to be removed to do this since if the ECU is not > actively grounding the ground side, the voltage applied to the 'hot' side > will appear at the 'cold' side as well if still connected to the injector. > > >>Remove the connector, and carefully hook up a >>temporary connection from the hot wire to the hot side of the injector, >>then ground the other side of the injector to the block or some body >>ground. Does the injector now spray fuel? > > > > -- > Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial > WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website > Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps > Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. > Thanks, guys... I'll take these with me to the shop. I didn't do any of the wiring re-connects so I can't guarantee anything just yet |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem
Matt Ion wrote:
> Graham W wrote: > >> >> TeGGeR® wrote: >> >>> Matt Ion > wrote in >>> newsUzEg.405746$iF6.393198@pd7tw2no: >>> >>> >>>> Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - >>>> D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. >>>> Kept the original intake and throttle body, all wiring appears to be >>>> back where it belongs. Engine was running before, but there was a big >>>> nasty crack down the block right behind the #4 cylinder. >>>> >>>> We're getting spark and compression, but no fuel into the cylinders - >>>> plugs come out completely dry even after much cranking. Fuel pump is >>>> working, and there's lots of pressure both before and after the >>>> forward fuel filter. Haven't checked where the fuel line bolts to the >>>> throttle body, but I don't expect there's a problem there either. >>>> >>>> I'm guessing something is preventing the injectors from working >>>> (again, this is the same intake and throttle body that was in the car >>>> and working previously). Didn't have any time to troubleshoot it >>>> tonight, so we're back at it tomorrow evening, so I thought I'd ask >>>> here for some pointers on where to check, what to test, how to >>>> determine where the problem may lie - any wires to check for signal >>>> or voltage, that sort of thing. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Does the Check Engine light come on for two seconds when the key is >>> first turned to "II", then go off again? >>> >>> Any codes stored in the ECU? >>> >>> Did you reconnect the ECU ground at the thermostat? >>> >>> At the bottom injector, find out which of the two wires is "hot" with >>> the key at "II" (the other one is grounded by the ECU when it wants the >>> injector to turn on). >> >> >> >> The connector will need to be removed to do this since if the ECU is not >> actively grounding the ground side, the voltage applied to the 'hot' side >> will appear at the 'cold' side as well if still connected to the >> injector. >> >> >>> Remove the connector, and carefully hook up a >>> temporary connection from the hot wire to the hot side of the injector, >>> then ground the other side of the injector to the block or some body >>> ground. Does the injector now spray fuel? >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial >> WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website >> Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps >> Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. >> > > Thanks, guys... I'll take these with me to the shop. I didn't do any of > the wiring re-connects so I can't guarantee anything just yet Okay, buddy's testing it (I'm not at the shop, home with a tweaked back muscle today)... he says there's no power on the injector wire. It does appear to be grounded to the thermostat housing (he's checking if it's got a GOOD ground) but he reads no power coming in. He notes there's a cut read wire hanging under the intake, coming out of a bundle along with one wire for the temp sending unit, and one for the oil pressure sending unit. There's no indication where it should go. And now he says it looks like the ground might be bad, so he's gonna fix that and try again. Meanwhile, he thanks you for your help as well He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem
Matt Ion > wrote in
news:vINEg.420523$IK3.280117@pd7tw1no: > > He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm SO > much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me > > Yeah? Then check he <http://search.ebscohost.com/Login.aspx?lp=login.asp&ref=&authtype=ip,uid> log in with username: lib password: access Click Auto Repair Reference Center from the menu at left. Navigate to your car. There are wiring diagrams. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem
TeGGeR® wrote:
> Matt Ion > wrote in > news:vINEg.420523$IK3.280117@pd7tw1no: > > > >>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm SO >>much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me >> > > > Click Auto Repair Reference Center from the menu at left. > Navigate to your car. There are wiring diagrams. Sweet, thanks! Meanwhile... he's determined there's no power to the injectors. Ground is good, but no signal into them. Waiting to see if he'll actually bother to check the ECM codes (I sent him the link from your FAQ). Thanks again... |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem
Matt Ion > wrote in
news:v3REg.410737$iF6.53449@pd7tw2no: > TeGGeR® wrote: >> Matt Ion > wrote in >> news:vINEg.420523$IK3.280117@pd7tw1no: >> >> >> >>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me >>> >> >> >> Click Auto Repair Reference Center from the menu at left. >> Navigate to your car. There are wiring diagrams. > > Sweet, thanks! > > Meanwhile... he's determined there's no power to the injectors. Ground > is good, but no signal into them. Waiting to see if he'll actually > bother to check the ECM codes (I sent him the link from your FAQ). > Power to the injectors is from the line that comes from Terminal 7 of the Main Relay. The fuel pump and the injectors receive power from the same basic source, so the trouble is probably a disconnected wire between the Main Relay and the injector harness. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem (SOLVED maybe)
TeGGeR® wrote:
> Matt Ion > wrote in > news:v3REg.410737$iF6.53449@pd7tw2no: > > >>TeGGeR® wrote: >> >>>Matt Ion > wrote in >>>news:vINEg.420523$IK3.280117@pd7tw1no: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me >>>> >>> >>> >>>Click Auto Repair Reference Center from the menu at left. >>>Navigate to your car. There are wiring diagrams. >> >>Sweet, thanks! >> >>Meanwhile... he's determined there's no power to the injectors. Ground >>is good, but no signal into them. Waiting to see if he'll actually >>bother to check the ECM codes (I sent him the link from your FAQ). >> > > > > > Power to the injectors is from the line that comes from Terminal 7 of the > Main Relay. The fuel pump and the injectors receive power from the same > basic source, so the trouble is probably a disconnected wire between the > Main Relay and the injector harness. Well, I actually got my hands on the car this afternoon and, with the help of the schematic (you ARE the man!), I think I found the source of the problem: the fuel pump is for some reason sinking TONS of current and causing the voltage throughout the car to drop excessively. Specifically: checking voltage at the injectors, I get only about 8.5V while they're activated, and closer to 5.5V when cranking. Voltage *at the battery* drops from about 12V to just barely over 8V for a few seconds as soon as the key is switched to Ignition, then jumps back up to 12V, nicely coinciding with the brief time the main relay switches on the pump and injectors. Connecting jumper cables to my running car, thus providing 14V to the system, allowed the car to ALMOST start as system voltage dropped to about 9.5V with ignition on, and 8.5V while cranking - it tried to catch a few times, but just couldn't quite fire up. After a little more tracing, I ruled out the injectors and internal wiring problems... looking at the schematic, there are only three things on that circuit - the two injectors and the fuel pump - so I figured either there was a "near-short" somewhere in its wire (a dead short would have blown the fuse), or the pump was having issues... as it turned out, unplugging the pump lead got rid of the strange voltage drop. So I'm thinking the pump probably has bad bearings or sleeves, or is badly gummed up, or in some other way is being prevented from turning freely, and thus is drawing excessive current, enough to drop the system voltage too low to operate the ECM and/or injectors, but not enough to pop the related fuse. Lordco was closed by this time, so my buddy's gonna pick up a new fuel pump tomorrow... but he'll be installing it on his own, as I'll be down at the football game! Hopefully that takes care of things... I'll let you know! |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
'88 Civic starting problem (SOLVED maybe)
"Matt Ion" > wrote in message
news:PXcFg.419370$Mn5.171051@pd7tw3no... > TeGGeR® wrote: >> Matt Ion > wrote in >> news:v3REg.410737$iF6.53449@pd7tw2no: >>>TeGGeR® wrote: >>> >>>>Matt Ion > wrote in >>>>news:vINEg.420523$IK3.280117@pd7tw1no: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Click Auto Repair Reference Center from the menu at left. >>>>Navigate to your car. There are wiring diagrams. >>> >>>Sweet, thanks! >>> >>>Meanwhile... he's determined there's no power to the injectors. Ground >>>is good, but no signal into them. Waiting to see if he'll actually >>>bother to check the ECM codes (I sent him the link from your FAQ). >>> >> >> >> >> >> Power to the injectors is from the line that comes from Terminal 7 of the >> Main Relay. The fuel pump and the injectors receive power from the same >> basic source, so the trouble is probably a disconnected wire between the >> Main Relay and the injector harness. > > Well, I actually got my hands on the car this afternoon and, with the help > of the schematic (you ARE the man!), I think I found the source of the > problem: the fuel pump is for some reason sinking TONS of current and > causing the voltage throughout the car to drop excessively. > > Specifically: checking voltage at the injectors, I get only about 8.5V > while they're activated, and closer to 5.5V when cranking. Voltage *at > the battery* drops from about 12V to just barely over 8V for a few seconds > as soon as the key is switched to Ignition, then jumps back up to 12V, > nicely coinciding with the brief time the main relay switches on the pump > and injectors. Connecting jumper cables to my running car, thus providing > 14V to the system, allowed the car to ALMOST start as system voltage > dropped to about 9.5V with ignition on, and 8.5V while cranking - it tried > to catch a few times, but just couldn't quite fire up. > > After a little more tracing, I ruled out the injectors and internal wiring > problems... looking at the schematic, there are only three things on that > circuit - the two injectors and the fuel pump - so I figured either there > was a "near-short" somewhere in its wire (a dead short would have blown > the fuse), or the pump was having issues... as it turned out, unplugging > the pump lead got rid of the strange voltage drop. > > So I'm thinking the pump probably has bad bearings or sleeves, or is badly > gummed up, or in some other way is being prevented from turning freely, > and thus is drawing excessive current, enough to drop the system voltage > too low to operate the ECM and/or injectors, but not enough to pop the > related fuse. > > Lordco was closed by this time, so my buddy's gonna pick up a new fuel > pump tomorrow... but he'll be installing it on his own, as I'll be down at > the football game! > > Hopefully that takes care of things... I'll let you know! Say... you don't have a bunch of voltage between the engine block and the chassis, do you? I'm just wondering how the fuel pump can drop the voltage so much without blowing the fuse. Mike |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
OEM Honda Microfiche parts catalogs for sale | Joe | Honda | 0 | March 4th 06 07:30 PM |
OEM Honda parts catalogs for sale | Joe | Honda | 0 | February 20th 06 11:44 PM |
problem starting and gear shifting (manual gears) for 1998 explorer | hedgerum | Ford Explorer | 2 | November 25th 05 11:25 PM |
1998 ford explorer problem starting and shifting gears (manual) - help please | [email protected] | Technology | 0 | November 20th 05 12:58 AM |
98 Explorer - Cold Starting/ Idle Problem | tj | Ford Explorer | 6 | March 16th 05 03:22 AM |