Timing Belt Tension Problems

Tegger wrote:
> "Elle" > wrote in
> nk.net:
>
>> 91 Civic, 197k miles
>>
>> I replaced the timing belt and tensioner the other day. I
>> cookbooked my way through setting the tension, not knowing
>> how things worked, and am pretty sure the rat-a-tat-tat I
>> heard from the engine is the belt, somewhat loose, hitting
>> the upper timing belt cover, for one.I just re-did the
>> tensioning step, following especially Tegger's careful
>> advice at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...m/thread/cf31d
> 3
>> 6fc1375d20/0f763a5f85ca7e05?lnk=st&q=teeth+pulley+(group%
> 3Aalt.autos.ho
>> nda+OR+rec.autos.makers.honda)&rnum=8#0f763a5f85ca 7e05 (post of Oct.
>> 4, 2005), and the engine still makes the rat-a-tat-tat noise. I can
>> feel the vibrations in synch with the rat-a-tat-tat on the when I put
>> my hand on the upper timing belt cover.
>>
>> I watched for the TB's forward side (closest to the car's
>> front) going tense, while the aft side went somewhat slack.
>> In one attempt I did hear a little zing from the tensioner
>> spring. I checked and re-checked this as I tightened the
>> tensioner adjusting bolt. On my last attempt, I do not know
>> if the "zing" and so tightening of the spring occurred or
>> not.
>>
>> I checked the timing with a timing light, and there are no
>> indications a tooth has jumped. I will continue to be very
>> aware that this could happen, especially when the tensioner
>> is loose or not set right.
>>
>> On my third attempt, I want to
>>
>> (1) loosen the tensioner screw more this time.
>> (2) make sure I hear the "zing" from the tensioner spring
>> (3) do as Jim Beam said in the above thread: (a) Turn the
>> engine over three times; (b) watch the tension in the belt;
>> and (c) watch that TDC on Cyl #1 aligns with the camshaft
>> sprocket being in the correct "up" orientation. I will take
>> the spark plugs out to make life easier this time.
>>
>> Is it true for step (3) that the TB aft side should always
>> be pretty slack compared to the TB fwd side?
>>
>> Any other clues on how to get this right?
>>
>> Struggling here. Prompt responses are appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> (Posted and mailed)
>
> I'm not sure where the "turn the engine over three times" came from.
> Doesn't sound right.

it comes from the service manual.

>
> When the belt was off, the tensioner should have been pushed in as far
> as it would go against its spring, then bolted so it would stay there.

but that only tensions that one length of belt. you need to rotate to
ensure all the lengths between all the rollers have adequate tension.


>
> Once the belt is on again, you
> 1) rotate the engine counterclockwise so as to put all the slack on the
> tensioner side, which should only be one or two teeth. 2) with a quick
> motion, loosen the tensioner bolt, which at that point should ZING out
> to take up the slack. 3) tighten the tensioner bolt BEFORE releasing the
> wrench.
>
> The important things are that the tensioner has to be pushed ALL the way
> back, so it can take a good run at the belt when it's released, and that
> the slack has to be entirely on the tensioner side of the belt.
>
> If the belt seems a bit loose even after that, you can tap the bolt head
> with your ratchet (while making sure the slack is in the right place).
> This will shock the tensioner into pushing out just a bit more.
>
> If you don't want to remove the covers again, you can loosen the
> tensioner, turn the engine CLOCKwise THREE TEETH, then snug the
> tensioner up again. This pulls the tensioner in a bit so you can try
> retensioning the belt. The tensioner can't get a good run at the belt in
> this case, so you may have to help it with taps from the ratchet.
>
> Good luck and hope this helps.
>

Elle wrote:
> "Tegger" > wrote
>> The tensioner can be a bit of a puzzle. I did not mention
>> it before because
>> I forgot, but it is easy to get the tensioner and spring
>> assembled
>> incorrectly, in which case it will not zing up properly
>> when asked to do
>> so.
>
> I checked the orientation of the hooks at the end of the
> spring on the old setup first, so I think I got those right.
> I wish I'd made other observations, though. I think I will
> go to my local "U-Pull-It" auto junkyard and see if I can
> find some old tensioners still installed.
>
>> My belt is not due to be replaced for a few years yet, and
>> I did my wife's
>> just last year, so it may be a while before I manage to
>> get some photos,
>> unless somebody has some to contribute.
>
> I wish I understood how the tensioner works well enough to
> write this experience up, with photos. I am holding onto the
> old tensioner and spring for awhile to see if I become
> "inspired."
>
> OTOH, my 91's design is so old, I am not sure it will be of
> much value for very long.
>
>
operation is very straight forward - need to rotate the engine to
ensure the belt is sufficiently seated on all pulleys and that tension
on all the runs is in equilibrium. then, the tensioner can take up on
the "slackest" run of the belt. the spring is perfect for this.

"Elle" > wrote in news:aYfni.8389
:


>
> I wish I understood how the tensioner works well enough to
> write this experience up, with photos. I am holding onto the
> old tensioner and spring for awhile to see if I become
> "inspired."



Take some pics. Post them.


>
> OTOH, my 91's design is so old, I am not sure it will be of
> much value for very long.
>
>

They don't change much over the years. Our '99 Tercel's works the same way
as my '91 Integra's.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote
>> I wish I understood how the tensioner works well enough
>> to
>> write this experience up, with photos. I am holding onto
>> the
>> old tensioner and spring for awhile to see if I become
>> "inspired."
>
> Take some pics. Post them.

See http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id21.html for
photos, along with an explanation of where I am confused. I
started a discussion at honda-tech.com as well. So far, one
person has commented that the "hole" has to go on a certain
peg. Which makes some sense, since I was wondering what the
hole opposite the one where the tensioner attaches is for.
Newer Civic tensioner adjusting instructions make reference
to pegging down the tensioner..., though the design is a bit
different.

I think I may have to go back in there and at least check
everything. All is fine after a few days of driving around
100 miles, highway and suburban. But...

"Elle" > wrote in news:gOboi.8957
:

> "Tegger" > wrote
>>> I wish I understood how the tensioner works well enough
>>> to
>>> write this experience up, with photos. I am holding onto
>>> the
>>> old tensioner and spring for awhile to see if I become
>>> "inspired."
>>
>> Take some pics. Post them.
>
> See http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id21.html for
> photos, along with an explanation of where I am confused. I
> started a discussion at honda-tech.com as well. So far, one
> person has commented that the "hole" has to go on a certain
> peg. Which makes some sense, since I was wondering what the
> hole opposite the one where the tensioner attaches is for.
> Newer Civic tensioner adjusting instructions make reference
> to pegging down the tensioner..., though the design is a bit
> different.
>
> I think I may have to go back in there and at least check
> everything. All is fine after a few days of driving around
> 100 miles, highway and suburban. But...
>
>
>


I had a look at the photos on your site.

Something does not look right.

See how the tensioner has a kidney-shaped hole in it? You'll notice the
curve of the hole is axial to the pivot hole shown to the right of the
photos.

The spring is shown extending radially from the tensioner. This is surely
incorrect: the spring cannot operate in this orientation. The spring should
be rotated 90 degrees either one way or the other from its current
position. In other words, it should be TANGENT to the tensioner.

The purpose of the spring is to pull the tensioner away from the
crankshaft, pulling the belt with it. The spring must be AXIAL to the
crank, but TANGENT to the tensioner.

See this pic:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/tensioner.pdf

I marked it up kinda quickly, so you may have to spend a bit of time
figuring out what goes where.

If this is not clear (and I suspect it will not be), let me know and I will
redo in more dramatic fashion.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger > wrote in
:


>
> The purpose of the spring is to pull the tensioner away from the
> crankshaft, pulling the belt with it. The spring must be AXIAL to the
> crank,



RADIAL, sorry.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Elle wrote:
> "Tegger" > wrote
>>> I wish I understood how the tensioner works well enough
>>> to
>>> write this experience up, with photos. I am holding onto
>>> the
>>> old tensioner and spring for awhile to see if I become
>>> "inspired."
>> Take some pics. Post them.
>
> See http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id21.html for
> photos, along with an explanation of where I am confused. I
> started a discussion at honda-tech.com as well. So far, one
> person has commented that the "hole" has to go on a certain
> peg. Which makes some sense, since I was wondering what the
> hole opposite the one where the tensioner attaches is for.
> Newer Civic tensioner adjusting instructions make reference
> to pegging down the tensioner..., though the design is a bit
> different.
>
> I think I may have to go back in there and at least check
> everything. All is fine after a few days of driving around
> 100 miles, highway and suburban. But...
>
>

that spring doesn't look right. it's /definitely/ not correctly
oriented. it should be a shorter thicker spring, and it's got a plastic
sleeve on it. it hooks onto a pin above the idler so that it causes the
idler to rotate about its fixed pivot point.

Tegger > wrote in
:

> The spring must be AXIAL to the
> crank,


RADIAL, sorry.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote
Re the photos at
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id21.html
> I had a look at the photos on your site.
>
> Something does not look right.
>
> See how the tensioner has a kidney-shaped hole in it?
> You'll notice the
> curve of the hole is axial to the pivot hole shown to the
> right of the
> photos.
>
> The spring is shown extending radially from the tensioner.
> This is surely
> incorrect: the spring cannot operate in this orientation.
> The spring should
> be rotated 90 degrees either one way or the other from its
> current
> position. In other words, it should be TANGENT to the
> tensioner.

My photo-taking bad: The new tensioner actually now
installed on my Honda does have the spring "acting"
tangentially. What I photographed was a "mock-up" using the
old tensioner and old spring, thrown together hastily with
no attention to detail.

I checked several Hondas at the junkyard yesterday. As far
as the spring orientation is concerned, these Hondas'
tensioner installations look like my Honda's.

> The purpose of the spring is to pull the tensioner away
> from the
> crankshaft, pulling the belt with it. The spring must be
> AXIAL to the
> crank, but TANGENT to the tensioner.
>
> See this pic:
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/tensioner.pdf

I can follow this drawing very easily. Thank you. What you
labeled the "pivot point" is where I may have messed up.
While I wondered about that "pivot point" hole opposite
where the spring attaches, I did not figure out that it was
a pivot point.

At this point I have been searching for instructions
specifically on "tensioner installation," because none of my
FS manuals say anything about looking for this peg and
hanging the tensioner on it... It's not like this peg is
easy to notice, given the tightness of this space. Nothing
in the newsgroup archives mentions this, either. I guess it
should have been obvious that the other, larger hole does
have a function.

I think the only question now is whether I should go back in
there, check everything, and follow the steps for tensioning
again, this time paying more attention to the peg etc.
Before starting the car a few days ago, I rotate the
crankshaft about three times and watched the TB. Also, it's
been 150 miles of problem-free driving since then.

Admittedly I can probably get back in there and out again in
a morning at this point.

Or maybe I can just take the upper timing cover off and feel
to see if the spring is in tension? I think I was getting
away with this at the junkyard yesterday.

Thanks again for your help.

Elle wrote:
> "Tegger" > wrote
> Re the photos at
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id21.html
>> I had a look at the photos on your site.
>>
>> Something does not look right.
>>
>> See how the tensioner has a kidney-shaped hole in it?
>> You'll notice the
>> curve of the hole is axial to the pivot hole shown to the
>> right of the
>> photos.
>>
>> The spring is shown extending radially from the tensioner.
>> This is surely
>> incorrect: the spring cannot operate in this orientation.
>> The spring should
>> be rotated 90 degrees either one way or the other from its
>> current
>> position. In other words, it should be TANGENT to the
>> tensioner.
>
> My photo-taking bad: The new tensioner actually now
> installed on my Honda does have the spring "acting"
> tangentially. What I photographed was a "mock-up" using the
> old tensioner and old spring, thrown together hastily with
> no attention to detail.
>
> I checked several Hondas at the junkyard yesterday. As far
> as the spring orientation is concerned, these Hondas'
> tensioner installations look like my Honda's.
>
>> The purpose of the spring is to pull the tensioner away
>> from the
>> crankshaft, pulling the belt with it. The spring must be
>> AXIAL to the
>> crank, but TANGENT to the tensioner.
>>
>> See this pic:
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/tensioner.pdf
>
> I can follow this drawing very easily. Thank you. What you
> labeled the "pivot point" is where I may have messed up.
> While I wondered about that "pivot point" hole opposite
> where the spring attaches, I did not figure out that it was
> a pivot point.
>
> At this point I have been searching for instructions
> specifically on "tensioner installation," because none of my
> FS manuals say anything about looking for this peg and
> hanging the tensioner on it... It's not like this peg is
> easy to notice, given the tightness of this space. Nothing
> in the newsgroup archives mentions this, either. I guess it
> should have been obvious that the other, larger hole does
> have a function.
>
> I think the only question now is whether I should go back in
> there, check everything, and follow the steps for tensioning
> again, this time paying more attention to the peg etc.
> Before starting the car a few days ago, I rotate the
> crankshaft about three times and watched the TB. Also, it's
> been 150 miles of problem-free driving since then.

you can drive with a very slack belt for some time, but it could skip at
random. a slack belt also gives flutter on the timing/sensor signals.

best to check it's assembled right and re-tension per the book. ensures
another 100k of trouble free mileage and peak performance.


>
> Admittedly I can probably get back in there and out again in
> a morning at this point.
>
> Or maybe I can just take the upper timing cover off and feel
> to see if the spring is in tension? I think I was getting
> away with this at the junkyard yesterday.
>
> Thanks again for your help.
>
>