134a Refrigerant

"Dave Milne" > wrote in message
. uk...
> are considered by most researchers to be
> well established facts"

once again there is nothing proven there. "considered by most" means that
it has never been proven.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com

wow, never heard that one before........sounds like a load of CR$P
--
Robb


Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/jeep-cars/200506/1

Agreed, the cycle of the ozone hole and global warming are nothing
more than conjecture, a way the bleeding heart liberals generate tax
payers moneys for college grants. I personally believe we're headed for
an Ice age, these past ten years, Vista's never been so cold, back in
1970, we'd get to hundred and ten at least once a summer week. It was
sixty nine degrees today.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

"Nathan W. Collier" wrote:
>
> nor can you provide any scientific evidence to back up your beliefs. the
> epa is a self serving whore (made up mostly of whiney tree hugging liberals)
> who must continually find fault in order to justify their own existance.
> nothing has ever been proven.
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://7SlotGrille.com
> http://UtilityOffRoad.com

The coming ice age:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...=Google+Search

"L.W.(ßill) Hughes III" wrote:
>
> Agreed, the cycle of the ozone hole and global warming are nothing
> more than conjecture, a way the bleeding heart liberals generate tax
> payers moneys for college grants. I personally believe we're headed for
> an Ice age, these past ten years, Vista's never been so cold, back in
> 1970, we'd get to hundred and ten at least once a summer week. It was
> sixty nine degrees today.
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> http://www.billhughes.com/

"Nathan W. Collier" > wrote in message
...
> "Stephen Cowell" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Can you show us a link giving that information as
> > a scientific result? I didn't think so..
>
> nor can you provide any scientific evidence to back up your beliefs. the
> epa is a self serving whore (made up mostly of whiney tree hugging
liberals)
> who must continually find fault in order to justify their own existance.
> nothing has ever been proven.

Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
belong to?

> > They have found that the emissions of the human-produced halocarbons,
plus
> > the much smaller contribution from natural sources, could account for
all
> > of
> > the stratospheric chlorine.
>
> "could" account for. _could_. nothing scientific or conclusive in that
> statement.

Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
the nature of science. The doubt gets smaller
and smaller... either cite new evidence, or go
back to faith-based 'science'. Your agenda
is showing.
__
Steve
..

"Stephen Cowell" > wrote in message
. ..
> Can't argue with a Luddite... do you believe we
> went to the Moon? Trust NASA? BTW, you've
> used the 'L' word... now can I equate you with
> Tim McVey? What branch of militia do *you*
> belong to?

lol let me get this straight. because i require _proof_ you equate me with
tim mcveigh? how assinine. you cant make your argument so you try to cloud
the discussion with ridiculous statements....another typical seminar liberal
tactic that failed miserably.


> Science always leaves room for doubt... that's
> the nature of science.

WRONG. you have fact and then you have agenda driven blind speculation.
"room for doubt" just goes to show that youre presenting opinion as fact,
another typical seminar liberal tactic.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com

I actually knew all of that, but thanks.

What is illegal to use about R12 is releasing it to the atmosphere, and
since most of us are not equipped to capture it at home, we can't buy it at
the corner store and add it to the A/C system on our car. We can't capture
R134 either, but this is not a big issue because R134 doesn't deplete the
ozone layer like R12 does. When I was a kid, we used to buy cans of R12 at
the auto parts store, and hook up a couple of guages and squirt it in, and
we didn't care that some would be released. Indeed, we needed some to escape
to purge the air that might be in the system. We could do this chore in the
driveway at home, and this was a huge part of the problem with ozone
depletion. Now that R12 can't be bought at the corner store, then consumers
have to go to the professionals to have the service done.

The professionals have the equipment to capture R12 (and R134 for that
matter), but I think that pretty much everybody recognizes that R12's days
are numbered here in the USA, and most A/C shops are in the business of
retrofitting old cars to R134 instead of continuing to try and keep them
running on R12. The only way that R12 gets released today is if the car is
in an accident, or a third world country.





"Robb S via CarKB.com" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff, just a FYI for you and the group on R 12.
> I think you are mistaken about it being illegal. R 12 is ILLEGAL to
> manufacture, not use. The Montreal Protocal dictates that R 12 can be
> used, just not manufactured. And when all of the current supplies are
used
> up, thats it. Unfortunately for the USA, third world countries like
mexico
> are exempt from those rules. It is legal to manufacture R 12 in Mexico.
> Thats why it's smuggled across the border. Its still legal to use, just
no
> make here or import. And it is legal to buy it on the open market. Its a
> huge business for reclaim companies to recondition recovered refrigerant R

> 12, and resell it. Just some info to keep everyone on the right track.
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
can't
> >> be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >
> >It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
to
> >use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a banned
> >substance. It also does not play well with others in the neighborhood,
R134
> >for example. If your system is designed to run on R134, it won't work
right
> >on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your factory R12 system back to
> >R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it will be costly. You can't buy
R12
> >on the open market, so you'll have to find a crook that will sell it to
you,
> >or pay to evacuate your system and refill it. You are not going to top
off a
> >low R134 system with R12, if for no other reason than the fittings are
> >different sizes.
> --
> Robb
>
>
> Message posted via http://www.carkb.com

Robb S via CarKB.com wrote:
> JohnM wrote:
>
>>>Shoot a little propane in the system and enjoy -
>>
>>It's not perfect but it'll work. IIRC, the oil in a R12 system is
>>correct for propane too.. It's been a while since I looked into it.. Oh,
>>I remember, I think- the vapor pressure is too high, adding 30%
>>isobutane brings it right into line.
>>
>>If you were to do it, which I believe is a federal crime
>>
>>Propane is a direct replacement for R22- virtually identical pressure
>>curves and, again, the oil is compatible.
>>
>>Anhydrous ammonia is another candidate. I am unaware of legal
>>complications with anhydrous, as with all things bragging without proper
>>learning is contraindicated.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OK here goes my 2 cents worth about propane and amonia......
>
> 1. what makes a good refrigerant in my opinion is its non toxicity rating
> and its flamability rating, and of course it's boiling point and a few
> other factors I won't get into now.
>
> Propane is primarialy used in ULTRA Low temp applications in the industry,
> and even then is a azotropic (mixed blend refrigerant).. Were talking
> about minus 300 F' etc.... Thats the ONLY application that I would EVER
> use it in, what the manufacturer intended it for.....or used in THEIR
> system.

You're talking liquid O2 temps there, propane boils, at atmospheric
pressure, around -44F. Oxygen boils at -297.. you sure about that temp?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know heaps about refrigeration, but
I know some and this is a pretty low temperature.

>
> 2. Anhydrous Amonia is also an excellent refrigerant, but ranks extremely
> low in the safety areas as well. And it is primarily used only in
> Industrial applications. Remember, your evaporator coil is part of the
> cooling system, and there are lines running in the passenger compartment as
> part of the system. Keep in mind that some use rubber lines, and o rings,
> etc... and I would need to know that all of those components were
> compatible with what was being put in the system, I would hate to have a
> leak in the system in the passenger compartment, and have propane or amonia
> in the system Bad news, and I also believe it is illegal to use those
> refrigerants in that situation. OSHA has strict regulations as to where
> and how those refrigerants may be used. The old amonia refrigerators are
> just not around any more.......for a reason.
> With all the other refrigerants out there, I would have many other choices
> before I would ever even consider amonia or propane....
> I don't know why Rich was thinking of going from 134a to 12, but maybe its
> because that was the old style and only what he knew was to be used
> previously. Wouldn't be my first choice of a replacement. 134a should be
> easily found, but I definately think someone is jerking his chain, or he
> isn't doing the proper Google search. I'd mail him some, but I think it'd
> be more of a pain in the A*S to try and ship it to him. Have to go ground,
> and shipping a gas in a cylinder I'm sure has more regulations.
>
> I apologize to everyone for my brain fart on the cost of R 12. Bill was
> right, and it is for a 30LB jug, not per pound. Still cost prohibitive.
>
> I would suggest to Rich, that if he can't find it in the auto parts store,
> go to a garage and have them charge it, or......Google it again, and mail
> order it.......
>
> Using or suggesting that propane is a direct replacement for R 22 is the
> most irresponsible advice I've ever heard.....Too much of a risk involved,
> and certainly not an industry standard. Remember, all components are
> designed for the chemical make up of a certain refrigerant, and I would
> need way too much research to even consider putting propane into a system.
> And never would if it would ever be exposed to people in any way-shape or
> form...... JUST TOO SCARY for me........

I didn't suggest anyone use propane as a replacement for R22, I just
pointed out an interesting fact while free-associating; it's a perfect,
cheap, compatible replacement. I'm pretty certain it's illegal,
otherwise it'd be used in place of R22. Anyone interested can look it
up. Using it where a leak could be exposed to people or a enclosed area
would be a bad idea.

As far as the research, it's already been done- google will find lots of
info on it for you.

I made a mistake in the way I wrote concerning ammonia. As you state,
it's an excellent refrigerant, but if anyone were to use it in their car
or house they'd be inviting disaster. It's Mean Stuff, a good whiff of
it will damage a person (or other animal) for life. I erred in failing
to point that out, my free-association was going and I didn't catch it.
My mistake, and it's good you responded and pointed it out.

R134a is also bad stuff- nothing like ammonia, but worse than you'd
expect for something that's allowed to be risked in a closed enviroment
like an automobile. Again, google it for reliable information.

John

Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> "JohnM" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
>>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
>>>
>>> And, I agree, going back to R12 isn't gonna happen. It's very
>>> expensive, and there are seriouis compatibility issues that add to
>>> the cost. I think one is going to spend the summer with the windows
>>> rolled down before one goes back to R12.
>>
>>
>> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
>> can't be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
>>
>
> It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
> to use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a
> banned substance. It also does not play well with others in the
> neighborhood, R134 for example. If your system is designed to run on
> R134, it won't work right on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your
> factory R12 system back to R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it
> will be costly. You can't buy R12 on the open market, so you'll have to
> find a crook that will sell it to you, or pay to evacuate your system
> and refill it. You are not going to top off a low R134 system with R12,
> if for no other reason than the fittings are different sizes.
>
>
Top off a 134 system with 12 and it's life will be measured in weeks, at
best.

It does matter if it's cheaper to make, and it also matters if it's more
efficient (which it is). Laws being passed in the name of doing
something, anything, just to be seen to be doing something do not remove
the "mattering" of a subject which they address. The fact that
refrigeration now costs more, from every angle, for everyone, does matter.

As another poster pointed out, it's not at all illegal to use.

As far as the ozone layer story.. I'm not convinced we affect it that
much. If we did, wouldn't it be in the Northern Hemisphere? I won't get
into politics here, I'll just say that there's some subjects which get a
lot of attention that I put little stock in. Global warming is another.
I don't want to argue about it, if someone wants to argue I suggest they
do some open-minded googling.

John

"JohnM" > wrote in message
m...
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >
> > "JohnM" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
> >> Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >>
> >>> I hadn't heard that there was any problem with making R134, and I am
> >>> surprised that anybody is reporting trouble finding it.
> >>>
> >>> And, I agree, going back to R12 isn't gonna happen. It's very
> >>> expensive, and there are seriouis compatibility issues that add to
> >>> the cost. I think one is going to spend the summer with the windows
> >>> rolled down before one goes back to R12.
> >>
> >>
> >> R12 is cheaper to produce than 134. It's pretty non-toxic too, which
> >> can't be said for 134. Political creatures have made 12 expensive.
> >>
> >
> > It doesn't matter that it is cheaper to make, it is essentially illegal
> > to use in the USA. R12 eats the ozone layer, or whatever, and is a
> > banned substance. It also does not play well with others in the
> > neighborhood, R134 for example. If your system is designed to run on
> > R134, it won't work right on R12 anyway, and if you want to convert your
> > factory R12 system back to R12 after retrofitting it to R134, then it
> > will be costly. You can't buy R12 on the open market, so you'll have to
> > find a crook that will sell it to you, or pay to evacuate your system
> > and refill it. You are not going to top off a low R134 system with R12,
> > if for no other reason than the fittings are different sizes.
> >
> >
> Top off a 134 system with 12 and it's life will be measured in weeks, at
> best.
>

Top off a 134 system with 12 and measure the life in hours - which is pretty
much what I said earlier.




> It does matter if it's cheaper to make, and it also matters if it's more
> efficient (which it is). Laws being passed in the name of doing
> something, anything, just to be seen to be doing something do not remove
> the "mattering" of a subject which they address. The fact that
> refrigeration now costs more, from every angle, for everyone, does matter.
>
> As another poster pointed out, it's not at all illegal to use.
>

It isn't illegal to use, but you can't simply open the valve and let it out,
like was once the practice. It has to be captured now, and they make sure it
is captured by raising the price. If they raise the price of the new
refrigerant, then buy back the captured refrigerant, then the new
refrigerant becomes reasonably priced. When we were kids, we could buy a set
of guages and a can or two of R12 and go home and service the A/C system in
the driveway. We can't do that anymore because the R12 has gone up in price.
If we could capture the R12 that we used to release, then the cost of
self-service would come way down. We can't capture the R12, so the cost of
self-service is very high. The equipment needed to capture and recycle the
R12 is expensive, and the only way to justify the cost is to ammortize it
over many operations.



> As far as the ozone layer story.. I'm not convinced we affect it that
> much. If we did, wouldn't it be in the Northern Hemisphere? I won't get
> into politics here, I'll just say that there's some subjects which get a
> lot of attention that I put little stock in. Global warming is another.
> I don't want to argue about it, if someone wants to argue I suggest they
> do some open-minded googling.
>
> John


It doesn't really matter what you think of the ozone depletion issue. There
are rules that have been developed, and they arise out of the ozone
depletion issue, and we have to live by the rules whether we agree with them
or not. Personally, I think I suould be able to go into the vault and haul
off a wheel barrel full of money, but there are bank robbing laws that I
have to live by whether I agree with them or not.

So, we are back to Square One. Somebody is looking for R134 that he is
having trouble sourcing. He didn't say, but I gathered from post that he
has a system that once took R12, but has been retrofitted to R134, and he
wanted to know about switching back to R12. I do not think he CAN switch
back, 1.) because the laws will not allow a conversion in that direction,
and 2.) because there are serious chemical reaction issues that arise if a
full evacuation is not accomplished.

None of the pollitical issues make a bit of difference. We have a reality
that says R134 is required.