'89 civic - no electrical at all, but sporadic!

Hello group,

I have an '89 Honda Civic with 156k miles. Have owned it since '91 and
40k miles. I have seen a _very_ sporadic electrical problem since at
least '96, but it was at the once-a-year level, so I haven't done
anything about it. Here it is:

Sometimes, the car acts like the battery is totally dead. No clock, no
lights, no beeping, nothing. It may be a cold start, it may be 20
minutes after parking at the grocery store. A few minutes of swearing
and re-attempt shows the car with full power, no starting problems,
everything normal. Jiggering the key around might help, or it might
not. (There's no power to the clock even with the key not present.)
It's done it in SoCal, where the weather isn't particularly cold, and
around freezing as well.

Sometimes all electrical power cuts out when the key is turned off.
Again, power has always come back.

Once or twice in the last year, all electrical power has cut out for a
fraction of a second (just a blip, no more) when I turned on the wipers
while driving. It was not reproducible.

Which brings us to today:

Today (a lovely 25 degree F morning, with the car in an unheated
garage), first I had the no power at all symptoms. 30 minutes of
swearing, and I'm getting beeping and warning lights, but when I turn
the key to III, either one of two things happen:
- All power cuts out again (to probably return within a minute or two
of swearing)
- There is a click but no cranking or turning over, sometimes followed
by the rpm gauge jumping a couple times perhaps 1/2 a second later.

In key position II, the seatbelt warning beeps, the clock comes on, and
I can hear the fuel pump come on and then off, as though everything's
ok. (Except when there's no power at all, anyway.) This is the first
time I've seen it do this - normally it's either no electrical power at
all, or everything's fine and the car starts.

So, any suggestions? Where should I or a mechanic start to look? I'm
hoping I'll be able to get the car started eventually today, at least
enough to drive it _somewhere_?

This is the coldest weather the car's needed to start in in several
years, but the symptoms of whatever this is seem just plain weird.
Thanks for any suggestions!

Cathy

Suspecting perhaps the ignition switch, i pulled the covers off the
steering wheel and dug around with a volt meter. Everything's
(usually) fine with the key at 0 or 1, matches the wiring info I found
online for it. At 2, I was reading about 1V where I'd expect around
12. So no wonder nothing was happening! While banging around,
looking for the problem, I apparently bumped _something_, and now the
voltages are right where I want 'em, and the car starts. (It might
have been the main relay that I jiggled, but is that consitent with
these symptoms?)

Thoughts? Which of a million wires should I be inspecting in more
details?

CAS wrote:
> Suspecting perhaps the ignition switch, i pulled the covers off the
> steering wheel and dug around with a volt meter. Everything's
> (usually) fine with the key at 0 or 1, matches the wiring info I found
> online for it. At 2, I was reading about 1V where I'd expect around
> 12. So no wonder nothing was happening! While banging around,
> looking for the problem, I apparently bumped _something_, and now the
> voltages are right where I want 'em, and the car starts. (It might
> have been the main relay that I jiggled, but is that consitent with
> these symptoms?)
>
> Thoughts? Which of a million wires should I be inspecting in more
> details?


----------------------


Honda ignition switches were somewhat famous LONG BEFORE the great
ignition switch recall, a few years ago.

Why not make sure the dealer has one in stock, then 'disect' yours?
You'll probably find the brushes all burnt to crap, and not worth fixing.

First time it dies with oncoming traffic, (if you have time) you'll
wonder why you 'cheaped out' :-(

'Curly'

CAS wrote:
> Sometimes all electrical power cuts out when the key is turned off.
> Again, power has always come back.

id take the ignition switch apart, and look at the contacts. not the
lock part- the electrical part.

CAS wrote:
>
> (It might
> have been the main relay that I jiggled, but is that consitent with
> these symptoms?)

The PGM-FI main relay, often just called main relay, only powers the
fuel pump and sections of the ECU. most of the electrical systems get
their power from the ignition switch without going through relays.
>
> Thoughts? Which of a million wires should I be inspecting in more
> details?

I second Curly's opinion on the ignition switch, particularly since
mucking around in that area seemed to fix the problem.

I would also check the battery cables. Check that both the ground and
the +12V cable have good, tight connection to the battery posts and to
chassis and the under-hood fuse box.