1994 Accord EX - Front Suspension work

I posted last week about a 1994 Accord EX with 235K+ miles that needed
suspension/alignment/steering work. It is tugging and jerking the wheel
up to around 40Mph, then a had vibration around 50-55, then a constant
vibration to about 80Mph. Any transition in speed will cause a
vibrationa as well. Oddly, if you go into a corner the vibration stops
while turning at speed, but resumes when you get straight. The
condition is getting worse, and I'm afraid it is getting pretty
dangerous to drive.

With the mileage, I'm guessing its the ball joints. The car is showing
its in alignment, but its wearing the inside of both front tires.

I figure a lot of bushings are worn out up front as well, and found
this auction on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/94-97...QQcmdZViewItem

For around 160$ shipped this looks like a steal, but wanted to see if
anyone had any input on it. Wouldn't it be easier to just replace all
these parts at one time while the front end is apart?

Do you think it would be a tough job for a DIY'er. I have access to a
lot of tools, impact wrenchs, etc... , but not a lift.

wrote:
<snip restatements>

dude, if you don't know what you're doing, have the work done by someone
that does. just buying parts without a proper assessment of what's
actually wrong is, well, not a sensible use of your money. have the
vehicle inspected by an experienced professional and go from there.

jim beam wrote:
> wrote:
> <snip restatements>
>
> dude, if you don't know what you're doing, have the work done by someone
> that does. just buying parts without a proper assessment of what's
> actually wrong is, well, not a sensible use of your money. have the
> vehicle inspected by an experienced professional and go from there.

The way I look at it, the car isn't worth the money to have a
professional do the job. I myself might not have the know how, but I
have family that does... hence the access to tools, etc. This car has
had all maintenance except for the timing belts done by either me or
our family, and it's still going strong at 235K+ miles.

Lower ball joints alone are around 80$ at autozone. That may fix the
problem, but to me its worth another $80 to replace everything at once
so I don't have to tear the front end apart again in case something
else is worn out.

wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
wrote:
>><snip restatements>
>>
>>dude, if you don't know what you're doing, have the work done by someone
>>that does. just buying parts without a proper assessment of what's
>>actually wrong is, well, not a sensible use of your money. have the
>>vehicle inspected by an experienced professional and go from there.
>
>
> The way I look at it, the car isn't worth the money to have a
> professional do the job.

eh? what price do you put on the safety of your family? and how does a
$500 one-time fix compare with a new car payment?

> I myself might not have the know how, but I
> have family that does...

in that case, have them check the vehicle out and tell you what you need
to do!!!

> hence the access to tools, etc. This car has
> had all maintenance except for the timing belts done by either me or
> our family, and it's still going strong at 235K+ miles.

that's not high mileage for a honda.

>
> Lower ball joints alone are around 80$ at autozone. That may fix the
> problem, but to me its worth another $80 to replace everything at once
> so I don't have to tear the front end apart again in case something
> else is worn out.
>
again, have someone that knows what they're doing inspect the vehicle.
speculation is pointless without proper information. once you know
what's up, you can price and budget.

jim beam wrote:
>
>


sarcasm snipped



Geeeeeeez, are you always this argumentative or do you have a problem
parsing text?

The guy stated that he's done the majority of maintenance to date and
certainly, a front end kit is a lot easier to install than individual components.

Sheeeeeeeeesh!

JT

> wrote
>I posted last week about a 1994 Accord EX with 235K+ miles
>that needed
> suspension/alignment/steering work. It is tugging and
> jerking the wheel
> up to around 40Mph, then a had vibration around 50-55,
> then a constant
> vibration to about 80Mph. Any transition in speed will
> cause a
> vibrationa as well. Oddly, if you go into a corner the
> vibration stops
> while turning at speed, but resumes when you get straight.
> The
> condition is getting worse, and I'm afraid it is getting
> pretty
> dangerous to drive.
>
> With the mileage, I'm guessing its the ball joints. The
> car is showing
> its in alignment, but its wearing the inside of both front
> tires.

I don't think you should guess. It could be so many things.
For example:
-- Needs alignment
-- tire pressure incorrect
-- wheels in need of balancing
-- worn ____ suspension part

More importantly, the problem is becoming serious. Maybe it
is a ball joint about to fail completely. A good report on a
failed ball joint appears at
http://tegger.com/hondafaq/lowerballjoint/index.html.

You're right to be careful. I agree you should //strongly//
consider not driving the car further.

You're probably capable of doing at least a cursory check of
the ball joints by yourself. For one thing, you want to
check their boots. If torn, the possibility is higher that
the ball joint is about to fail. Checking for excessive BJ
play is described at

http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker...3d800d1b9e.jsp

On the other hand, if you need this car functioning right
away, I recommend calling an alignment shop and asking
whether they check the ball joints and for general wear
during the alignment. If so, have an alignment done, but
especially note what the shop says is worn.


If you really do have the time, google for {"ball joints"
"tire wear" pattern inner} and a lot of fine articles come
up. Read more, so you know how broad this subject is.

> I figure a lot of bushings are worn out up front as well,
> and found
> this auction on ebay:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/94-97...QQcmdZViewItem
>
> For around 160$ shipped this looks like a steal, but
> wanted to see if
> anyone had any input on it. Wouldn't it be easier to just
> replace all
> these parts at one time while the front end is apart?

Contrary to the assertion of this ebay advertisement, these
items are not //all// of the usual wear items. There are
others. For example, the lower control arm bushings may be
easily examined with the car on jackstands or ramps. Cracks
in these bushings are common and will be obvious.

Whether this ebay item is OEM ( = genuine Honda) is also not
clear. it looks like an aftermarket parts dealer, like
Autozone. From my reading and some experience, non-OEM
rubber anything is not worth what you pay. I note that I am
frugal and learned this the hard way. Now I pay more
upfront, but the parts last longer. I sleep better. :-)

> Do you think it would be a tough job for a DIY'er. I have
> access to a
> lot of tools, impact wrenchs, etc... , but not a lift.

I have been replacing a lot of my suspension components
recently on my 91 Civic. These include the stabilizer links
(easy job; mine were very badly corroded on one side); lower
control arm bushings (have done bushings on 3 of four arms
now); front coil springs. Freeing frozen bolts on the
control arms, and removing old bushings and installing new
ones, all by one's self, is an adventure. That is, they're
only for a person with a lot of time and interest.

I have done all of it on jack stands and rhino ramps. A
lift would be nice, but if you're not too large a person and
can easily get under the car with it on ramps and
jackstands, the suspension work is quite manageable.

I am spending a lot of money on tools (or fabricating my
own). Still, the cost is far below what I would pay a shop.
Plus I will know that, for example, the trailing arm
bushings (in the rear) were correctly installed (orientation
of them is a bit tricky; shops have been known to mess it
up).

What kind of auto repair experience have you, anyway? If
you've never done, say, a timing belt and brake pads, then I
don't think you're ready to tackle suspension renovation.

Also, has the car been driven in a snowy, wet climate for
much of its life? That will indicate somewhat how difficult
the bolts will be to free.

Lastly, has the car (driven perhaps by a teenage son) hit
anything since the problem started occurring?

Elle wrote:
> > wrote
> >I posted last week about a 1994 Accord EX with 235K+ miles
> >that needed
> > suspension/alignment/steering work. It is tugging and
> > jerking the wheel
> > up to around 40Mph, then a had vibration around 50-55,
> > then a constant
> > vibration to about 80Mph. Any transition in speed will
> > cause a
> > vibrationa as well. Oddly, if you go into a corner the
> > vibration stops
> > while turning at speed, but resumes when you get straight.
> > The
> > condition is getting worse, and I'm afraid it is getting
> > pretty
> > dangerous to drive.
> >
> > With the mileage, I'm guessing its the ball joints. The
> > car is showing
> > its in alignment, but its wearing the inside of both front
> > tires.
>
> I don't think you should guess. It could be so many things.
> For example:
> -- Needs alignment
> -- tire pressure incorrect
> -- wheels in need of balancing
> -- worn ____ suspension part
>

Alignment is good this was verified by a family member with an
alignment shop.
Tire pressure is good verified by myself.
Wheels could possibly need balancing... this has not been checked in
the last 10-15K miles.
With the amount of miles on the car, I'm assuming it's a worn out part.

> More importantly, the problem is becoming serious. Maybe it
> is a ball joint about to fail completely. A good report on a
> failed ball joint appears at
> http://tegger.com/hondafaq/lowerballjoint/index.html.
>

Valuable peice of information thanks.

I've also been using this page from tegger:

EBSCOHost Research Databases
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/online-manuals.html

> You're right to be careful. I agree you should //strongly//
> consider not driving the car further.
>
> You're probably capable of doing at least a cursory check of
> the ball joints by yourself. For one thing, you want to
> check their boots. If torn, the possibility is higher that
> the ball joint is about to fail. Checking for excessive BJ
> play is described at
>
> http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker...3d800d1b9e.jsp

Thanks for the link. That's what I'm afraid of. The car is mostly
driven in the city under 40Mph thankfully.

>
> On the other hand, if you need this car functioning right
> away, I recommend calling an alignment shop and asking
> whether they check the ball joints and for general wear
> during the alignment. If so, have an alignment done, but
> especially note what the shop says is worn.
>
>
> If you really do have the time, google for {"ball joints"
> "tire wear" pattern inner} and a lot of fine articles come
> up. Read more, so you know how broad this subject is.
>
> > I figure a lot of bushings are worn out up front as well,
> > and found
> > this auction on ebay:
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/94-97...QQcmdZViewItem
> >
> > For around 160$ shipped this looks like a steal, but
> > wanted to see if
> > anyone had any input on it. Wouldn't it be easier to just
> > replace all
> > these parts at one time while the front end is apart?
>
> Contrary to the assertion of this ebay advertisement, these
> items are not //all// of the usual wear items. There are
> others. For example, the lower control arm bushings may be
> easily examined with the car on jackstands or ramps. Cracks
> in these bushings are common and will be obvious.
>
> Whether this ebay item is OEM ( = genuine Honda) is also not
> clear. it looks like an aftermarket parts dealer, like
> Autozone. From my reading and some experience, non-OEM
> rubber anything is not worth what you pay. I note that I am
> frugal and learned this the hard way. Now I pay more
> upfront, but the parts last longer. I sleep better. :-)
>

Thing is we're only trying to make the car last another year or two of
regular use, longevity is not as big of an issue. I'm pretty frugal
myself. I will look into higher quality items though, considering we
won't be trading the car in. It more than likely will be a beater after
it is replaced... albeit a nice beater.

> > Do you think it would be a tough job for a DIY'er. I have
> > access to a
> > lot of tools, impact wrenchs, etc... , but not a lift.
>
> I have been replacing a lot of my suspension components
> recently on my 91 Civic. These include the stabilizer links
> (easy job; mine were very badly corroded on one side); lower
> control arm bushings (have done bushings on 3 of four arms
> now); front coil springs. Freeing frozen bolts on the
> control arms, and removing old bushings and installing new
> ones, all by one's self, is an adventure. That is, they're
> only for a person with a lot of time and interest.
>
> I have done all of it on jack stands and rhino ramps. A
> lift would be nice, but if you're not too large a person and
> can easily get under the car with it on ramps and
> jackstands, the suspension work is quite manageable.

Yep not too large of a person here. I would have help from 2 other
people too, and would like to tackle the job in a weekend.

>
> I am spending a lot of money on tools (or fabricating my
> own). Still, the cost is far below what I would pay a shop.
> Plus I will know that, for example, the trailing arm
> bushings (in the rear) were correctly installed (orientation
> of them is a bit tricky; shops have been known to mess it
> up).
>
> What kind of auto repair experience have you, anyway? If
> you've never done, say, a timing belt and brake pads, then I
> don't think you're ready to tackle suspension renovation.
>

I myself have changed pads, one of the radiator fans, radiator hoses,
bled the brake system, regulary change the oil, etc.. on this car. On
my previous car, a 96 Explorer I changed pads, shocks, oil, plugs,
wires, etc...

It's my soon to be wifes car and she has had it since she was 16. Her
dad is who knows a lot more than me about this stuff and who will be
helping me. He's assisted me with a lot of help on this car. He
restored a 76 Celica with a full engine swap so I beleive he is pretty
knowledgable, although I follow by the book a little better than him.

> Also, has the car been driven in a snowy, wet climate for
> much of its life? That will indicate somewhat how difficult
> the bolts will be to free.
>
> Lastly, has the car (driven perhaps by a teenage son) hit
> anything since the problem started occurring?

The car has been in a hot and humid environment its whole life, the
southeast. The shaking has gotten progressively worse that is for sure.
I would say around 200K mark is around when it began. As of lately when
it started getting into the 90s here is when it begin to get real bad.
It has gotten even worse in the past month.

Thanks for the advice... pretty much what I needed to hear. I'll do
some visual inspections and see if the suspension is within spec.

> wrote
> Elle wrote:
snip but all read
>> You're probably capable of doing at least a cursory check
>> of
>> the ball joints by yourself. For one thing, you want to
>> check their boots. If torn, the possibility is higher
>> that
>> the ball joint is about to fail. Checking for excessive
>> BJ
>> play is described at
>>
>> http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker...3d800d1b9e.jsp
>
> Thanks for the link. That's what I'm afraid of.

Maybe I'm misreading your tone, but from the work I've been
doing on my 91 Civic's suspension, I don't think replacing
the ball joints will be such a horrid job, especially with
at least one person with some experience (your
father-in-law) around. Definitely have backup
transportation, though.

Looking over those BJ boots isn't hard.

I am only an amateur. I get my 91 Civic work done by
researching a lot, including pumping all the pros and
experienced enthusiasts here for tips, and working slowly.
> Thing is we're only trying to make the car last another
> year or two of
> regular use, longevity is not as big of an issue.

This does indeed make it a tough decision.

Can't you move up your next car purchase a year or so?

From the sounds of things, you're going to put into this car
maybe around another $500. Although $500 for another year is
not very expensive...

> I would have help from 2 other
> people too, and would like to tackle the job in a weekend.

That sounds ambitious, unless the other two have a lot of
auto suspension experience and all the specialized tools.

> The car has been in a hot and humid environment its whole
> life, the
> southeast.

At least road salt hasn't been eating at it. OTOH, dunno
what ocean salt may due to those control arm bolts, for one.
They seize easily for Midwestern and Northern cars.

Buy a can of the penetrating oil PB Blaster and start
soaking all the bolts you think you'll need to free. I am
convinced that this stuff is saving me, as I work on my 91's
suspension.

I hope you'll update how this project with your to be father
in law goes. Sounds like an interesting problem. Good luck.

Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are a few:

Right Front Tire

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2083/rftire2lu.jpg

Right Front Lower Ball Joint

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5...lljoint7vp.jpg

Right Front Upper Ball Joint

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/504...lljoint8wp.jpg

Left Front Tire

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7889/lftire3qm.jpg

Left Front Lower Ball Joint

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6...lljoint8sl.jpg

Left Front Upper Ball Joint

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4...lljoint0gu.jpg


Obviously the right side is the worst, but it apears both sides are leaking
at the seals. The wear is much more noticable on the right tire as well. The
tire wear is spotty too on the inner part of the tire.



"Elle" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> > wrote
>> Elle wrote:
> snip but all read
>>> You're probably capable of doing at least a cursory check of
>>> the ball joints by yourself. For one thing, you want to
>>> check their boots. If torn, the possibility is higher that
>>> the ball joint is about to fail. Checking for excessive BJ
>>> play is described at
>>>
>>> http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker...3d800d1b9e.jsp
>>
>> Thanks for the link. That's what I'm afraid of.
>
> Maybe I'm misreading your tone, but from the work I've been doing on my 91
> Civic's suspension, I don't think replacing the ball joints will be such a
> horrid job, especially with at least one person with some experience (your
> father-in-law) around. Definitely have backup transportation, though.
>
> Looking over those BJ boots isn't hard.
>
> I am only an amateur. I get my 91 Civic work done by researching a lot,
> including pumping all the pros and experienced enthusiasts here for tips,
> and working slowly.
>> Thing is we're only trying to make the car last another year or two of
>> regular use, longevity is not as big of an issue.
>
> This does indeed make it a tough decision.
>
> Can't you move up your next car purchase a year or so?
>
> From the sounds of things, you're going to put into this car maybe around
> another $500. Although $500 for another year is not very expensive...
>
>> I would have help from 2 other
>> people too, and would like to tackle the job in a weekend.
>
> That sounds ambitious, unless the other two have a lot of auto suspension
> experience and all the specialized tools.
>
>> The car has been in a hot and humid environment its whole life, the
>> southeast.
>
> At least road salt hasn't been eating at it. OTOH, dunno what ocean salt
> may due to those control arm bolts, for one. They seize easily for
> Midwestern and Northern cars.
>
> Buy a can of the penetrating oil PB Blaster and start soaking all the
> bolts you think you'll need to free. I am convinced that this stuff is
> saving me, as I work on my 91's suspension.
>
> I hope you'll update how this project with your to be father in law goes.
> Sounds like an interesting problem. Good luck.
>

"joutlaw" > wrote
> Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here
> are a few:
>
> Right Front Tire
>
> http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2083/rftire2lu.jpg

Looks like my right front tire (Civic, 177k miles, wear
noticed around 175k miles late 2005, I think).

My right stabilizer link was the one that was all corroded.
Its rubbers practically crumbled in my hand; the bolt was
seriously eaten away.

Ya oughta post photographs of your stabilizer links. :-)

My ball joint boots all look pretty good (knock on wood).

> Right Front Lower Ball Joint
>
> http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5...lljoint7vp.jpg

Is that black lava flowing out at the bottom? It's a little
hard to tell if the boot is ripped up here. But I guess from
what you say, it's toast.

> Right Front Upper Ball Joint
>
> http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/504...lljoint8wp.jpg

Oh mah goodness! Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing here?
Yikes! Frightening!

I vote replace the right front upper BJ and its boot first.

How could it get this bad?

> Left Front Tire
>
> http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7889/lftire3qm.jpg

Doesn't look as bad as my 91 Civic's right front tire. :-)

> Left Front Lower Ball Joint
>
> http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6...lljoint8sl.jpg

Looks like the boot is letting in dirt and water due to
being corroded at the bottom.

> Left Front Upper Ball Joint
>
> http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4...lljoint0gu.jpg

Is that an obvious crack/corrosion I see in the middle of
this left front upper BJ boot?

> Obviously the right side is the worst, but it apears both
> sides are leaking at the seals.

Note: There's nothing to really leak except maybe a tiny bit
of grease. Those boots are there "just" to keep dirt and
water out, AFAIK.

> The wear is much more noticable on the right tire as well.
> The tire wear is spotty too on the inner part of the tire.

Sounds like you're on a mission which in my never humble
opinion is very healthy. Enjoy. :-)