spark plug question

I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.


http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg


they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
right up to redline in any gear.

On 05/14/2012 05:12 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
> saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>
>
> http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>
>
> they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
> yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
> miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
> injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
> set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
> right up to redline in any gear.
>

i think you have more than one problem going on there. the two
cylinders from the plugs on the right might indeed be running lean, but
they're also burning oil. that is one whole lot of ash accumulated, and
beyond the threads, the plug bodies are wet with it. it would explain
why it runs fine on new plugs and misfires when the ash accumulates -
weakened spark insulation at idle when voltage requirements are high.

if you don't want to fix the oil situation, i'd run some injector
cleaner through it and just keep changing the plugs - they're cheap
enough. and the codes will remain fine until the catalytic
converter/oxygen sensors get ashed up and lose efficiency.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Mon, 14 May 2012 17:12:18 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
> saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>
>
> http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>
>
> they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
> yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
> miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
> injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
> set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
> right up to redline in any gear.

By the looks of the plugs, you have an oil problem.
Those were changed after 5,000 miles?
Then by their appearance, you also may have a minor water problem.
The only way to know what is causing the problem is to tear down the block
and inspect for hairline ftactures.

On May 14, 8:12*pm, Ashton Crusher > wrote:
> I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
> saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>
> http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>
> they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. *It scopes out fine
> yet misses. *Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
> miles. *Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
> injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
> set a code. *No codes have popped up. *Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
> right up to redline in any gear.

Your miss could be as simple as a defective spark plug.. Are these the
correct plugs for your vehicle? Have you replaced them several times
and each time they last about 5k? Is your valve cover leaking?

I'm having a similar problem as well on my '98 Plymouth Breeze 2.4L.
I have an occasional miss at idle and changing my plugs corrected this
problem, but 3 weeks later the miss has returned. I may try another
set of plugs (cheapest fix first) and see if I may have a defective
plug.

Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
> saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>
> http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>
> they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
> yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
> miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
> injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
> set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
> right up to redline in any gear.

The plug on the left looks like it came from a cold cylinder that
hasn't been firing at idle. Have you checked compression?

Is the miss just one cylinder going "pfft pfft pfft" at idle and
then it smoothes out when revved.

What does "It scopes out fine" mean?
Did you looked at the secondary using an Oscilloscope and
see no difference in the spark form on all cylinders?

-jim

On Mon, 14 May 2012 17:12:18 -0700, Ashton Crusher >
wrote:

>I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
>saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>
>
>http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>
>
>they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
>yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
>miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
>injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
>set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
>right up to redline in any gear.


Thanks for the replies. From the questions asked here is more info to
answer them and see if anyone has further thoughts.

The engine runs like new power wise, other then this miss. It doesn't
burn any oil between changes or 3000 mile+. Only needs more coolant
perhaps once or twice a year, never blows white smoke or any other
smoke on startup. The shop that "fixed it" last year said they could
find no problems when I brought it in as it was running fine that day.
The ignition looked "fine" by whatever test equipment they used. I
brought it back two days later because it started acting up again.
This time they could occasionally experience the problem while driving
but could still find nothing when they "tested" it. They did a fuel
injector cleaning and gave it back to me. It ran the same with the
occasional miss. I brought it back. At this point it had some bosch
double plats in it that I had put in about 5K earlier. The mechanic
didn't like the bosch plugs and said he thought it was the plugs even
though they "tested" OK. So I told him to go ahead and put whatever
plugs he liked in it which as Motorcraft copper core. When it got it
back it ran fine and continued to run fine until recently when it
started the same miss again.

Here's a more complete description of the "miss". Sometimes it will
idle ok but when you start up you can feel a miss that feels like a
single cylinder. That may persist till you get it up to about 2000
rpm and then it goes away. On the freeway it's fine, kick it into
passing gear and it's fine. Sometimes it will have what feels like
the single cylinder miss but as you accelerate normally, say from a
stop light, it gets to 1200 rpm and feels like all of a sudden 2 or 3
cylinders are missing and it losses power significantly. This may
last for a few seconds and then it clears up and goes back to a single
cyl type miss and then goes away. I thought it was ignition till I
read the below...I'm on the road now so I'm just hopping three new
plugs will eliminate the problem for a few weeks.


From the net....

I had the same problem with my '95. Low RPM miss I couldn't track
down. Did all the usual checks/replacements of vacuum leaks, plugs,
wires, coil pack, sensors, etc... Then I decided to check the
resistance I was getting off of my injectors after none of that
resulted in the miss getting fixed. BINGO! even though I wasn't
getting a CEL, the truck was running lean, but not lean enough to
throw a code. I had 2 bad injectors, and another 2 reading higher than
normal. Normal range is between 13 and 19 Ohms. One was way off
intermittently at 54 Ohms, and another was just over 24. the other 2
were just about 21 Ohms, definitely out of spec.

So I ordered a new set of 6 ( what is the point of just replacing the
ones that were bad, seeing the others could go at any time as well)
from a place online. $120 for all 6 shipped, can't beat that deal
anywhere! And they are FORD parts.

Anyway's, after getting them all installed (about 2 hours of work
total) The miss was gone and has been running like it was brand new
ever since.



I was ready to start throwing parts at it

In article >,
Ashton Crusher > wrote:

> On Mon, 14 May 2012 17:12:18 -0700, Ashton Crusher >
> wrote:
>
> >I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
> >saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
> >
> >
> >http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
> >
> >
> >they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
> >yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
> >miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
> >injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
> >set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
> >right up to redline in any gear.
>
>
> Thanks for the replies. From the questions asked here is more info to
> answer them and see if anyone has further thoughts.
>
> The engine runs like new power wise, other then this miss. It doesn't
> burn any oil between changes or 3000 mile+. Only needs more coolant
> perhaps once or twice a year, never blows white smoke or any other
> smoke on startup. The shop that "fixed it" last year said they could
> find no problems when I brought it in as it was running fine that day.
> The ignition looked "fine" by whatever test equipment they used. I
> brought it back two days later because it started acting up again.
> This time they could occasionally experience the problem while driving
> but could still find nothing when they "tested" it. They did a fuel
> injector cleaning and gave it back to me. It ran the same with the
> occasional miss. I brought it back. At this point it had some bosch
> double plats in it that I had put in about 5K earlier. The mechanic
> didn't like the bosch plugs and said he thought it was the plugs even
> though they "tested" OK. So I told him to go ahead and put whatever
> plugs he liked in it which as Motorcraft copper core. When it got it
> back it ran fine and continued to run fine until recently when it
> started the same miss again.
>
> Here's a more complete description of the "miss". Sometimes it will
> idle ok but when you start up you can feel a miss that feels like a
> single cylinder. That may persist till you get it up to about 2000
> rpm and then it goes away. On the freeway it's fine, kick it into
> passing gear and it's fine. Sometimes it will have what feels like
> the single cylinder miss but as you accelerate normally, say from a
> stop light, it gets to 1200 rpm and feels like all of a sudden 2 or 3
> cylinders are missing and it losses power significantly. This may
> last for a few seconds and then it clears up and goes back to a single
> cyl type miss and then goes away. I thought it was ignition till I
> read the below...I'm on the road now so I'm just hopping three new
> plugs will eliminate the problem for a few weeks.
>
>
> From the net....
>
> I had the same problem with my '95. Low RPM miss I couldn't track
> down. Did all the usual checks/replacements of vacuum leaks, plugs,
> wires, coil pack, sensors, etc... Then I decided to check the
> resistance I was getting off of my injectors after none of that
> resulted in the miss getting fixed. BINGO! even though I wasn't
> getting a CEL, the truck was running lean, but not lean enough to
> throw a code. I had 2 bad injectors, and another 2 reading higher than
> normal. Normal range is between 13 and 19 Ohms. One was way off
> intermittently at 54 Ohms, and another was just over 24. the other 2
> were just about 21 Ohms, definitely out of spec.
>
> So I ordered a new set of 6 ( what is the point of just replacing the
> ones that were bad, seeing the others could go at any time as well)
> from a place online. $120 for all 6 shipped, can't beat that deal
> anywhere! And they are FORD parts.
>
> Anyway's, after getting them all installed (about 2 hours of work
> total) The miss was gone and has been running like it was brand new
> ever since.
>
>
>
> I was ready to start throwing parts at it

Have you checked your fuel filter? Do you have water contamination in
the fuel? Try changing out the fuel filter and see if the problem goes
away.

It is not uncommon to get contaminated fuel -- especially if you fuel up
during or shortly after (<1 hr) the gas station has received a new load
of gas.

Does the car sit outside a lot overnight? This can result in
condensation of atmospheric water in the tank.

Ashton Crusher > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 14 May 2012 17:12:18 -0700, Ashton Crusher >
> wrote:
>
>>I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
>>saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>>
>>
>>http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>>
>>
>>they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
>>yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
>>miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
>>injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
>>set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
>>right up to redline in any gear.
>
>
> Thanks for the replies. From the questions asked here is more info to
> answer them and see if anyone has further thoughts.
>
> The engine runs like new power wise, other then this miss. It doesn't
> burn any oil between changes or 3000 mile+. Only needs more coolant
> perhaps once or twice a year, never blows white smoke or any other
> smoke on startup. The shop that "fixed it" last year said they could
> find no problems when I brought it in as it was running fine that day.
> The ignition looked "fine" by whatever test equipment they used. I
> brought it back two days later because it started acting up again.
> This time they could occasionally experience the problem while driving
> but could still find nothing when they "tested" it. They did a fuel
> injector cleaning and gave it back to me. It ran the same with the
> occasional miss. I brought it back. At this point it had some bosch
> double plats in it that I had put in about 5K earlier. The mechanic
> didn't like the bosch plugs and said he thought it was the plugs even
> though they "tested" OK. So I told him to go ahead and put whatever
> plugs he liked in it which as Motorcraft copper core. When it got it
> back it ran fine and continued to run fine until recently when it
> started the same miss again.
>
> Here's a more complete description of the "miss". Sometimes it will
> idle ok but when you start up you can feel a miss that feels like a
> single cylinder. That may persist till you get it up to about 2000
> rpm and then it goes away. On the freeway it's fine, kick it into
> passing gear and it's fine. Sometimes it will have what feels like
> the single cylinder miss but as you accelerate normally, say from a
> stop light, it gets to 1200 rpm and feels like all of a sudden 2 or 3
> cylinders are missing and it losses power significantly. This may
> last for a few seconds and then it clears up and goes back to a single
> cyl type miss and then goes away. I thought it was ignition till I
> read the below...I'm on the road now so I'm just hopping three new
> plugs will eliminate the problem for a few weeks.
>
>
> From the net....
>
> I had the same problem with my '95. Low RPM miss I couldn't track
> down. Did all the usual checks/replacements of vacuum leaks, plugs,
> wires, coil pack, sensors, etc... Then I decided to check the
> resistance I was getting off of my injectors after none of that
> resulted in the miss getting fixed. BINGO! even though I wasn't
> getting a CEL, the truck was running lean, but not lean enough to
> throw a code. I had 2 bad injectors, and another 2 reading higher than
> normal. Normal range is between 13 and 19 Ohms. One was way off
> intermittently at 54 Ohms, and another was just over 24. the other 2
> were just about 21 Ohms, definitely out of spec.
>
> So I ordered a new set of 6 ( what is the point of just replacing the
> ones that were bad, seeing the others could go at any time as well)
> from a place online. $120 for all 6 shipped, can't beat that deal
> anywhere! And they are FORD parts.
>
> Anyway's, after getting them all installed (about 2 hours of work
> total) The miss was gone and has been running like it was brand new
> ever since.
>
>
>
> I was ready to start throwing parts at it
>

have you replaced your plug WIRES? distributor cap/rotor?
the wires do get old and begin to break down. Then your plugs will misfire.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Tue, 15 May 2012 18:18:58 -0500, Jim Yanik >
wrote:

>Ashton Crusher > wrote in
:
>
>> On Mon, 14 May 2012 17:12:18 -0700, Ashton Crusher >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
>>>saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>>>
>>>
>>>http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
>>>yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
>>>miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
>>>injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
>>>set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
>>>right up to redline in any gear.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the replies. From the questions asked here is more info to
>> answer them and see if anyone has further thoughts.
>>
>> The engine runs like new power wise, other then this miss. It doesn't
>> burn any oil between changes or 3000 mile+. Only needs more coolant
>> perhaps once or twice a year, never blows white smoke or any other
>> smoke on startup. The shop that "fixed it" last year said they could
>> find no problems when I brought it in as it was running fine that day.
>> The ignition looked "fine" by whatever test equipment they used. I
>> brought it back two days later because it started acting up again.
>> This time they could occasionally experience the problem while driving
>> but could still find nothing when they "tested" it. They did a fuel
>> injector cleaning and gave it back to me. It ran the same with the
>> occasional miss. I brought it back. At this point it had some bosch
>> double plats in it that I had put in about 5K earlier. The mechanic
>> didn't like the bosch plugs and said he thought it was the plugs even
>> though they "tested" OK. So I told him to go ahead and put whatever
>> plugs he liked in it which as Motorcraft copper core. When it got it
>> back it ran fine and continued to run fine until recently when it
>> started the same miss again.
>>
>> Here's a more complete description of the "miss". Sometimes it will
>> idle ok but when you start up you can feel a miss that feels like a
>> single cylinder. That may persist till you get it up to about 2000
>> rpm and then it goes away. On the freeway it's fine, kick it into
>> passing gear and it's fine. Sometimes it will have what feels like
>> the single cylinder miss but as you accelerate normally, say from a
>> stop light, it gets to 1200 rpm and feels like all of a sudden 2 or 3
>> cylinders are missing and it losses power significantly. This may
>> last for a few seconds and then it clears up and goes back to a single
>> cyl type miss and then goes away. I thought it was ignition till I
>> read the below...I'm on the road now so I'm just hopping three new
>> plugs will eliminate the problem for a few weeks.
>>
>>
>> From the net....
>>
>> I had the same problem with my '95. Low RPM miss I couldn't track
>> down. Did all the usual checks/replacements of vacuum leaks, plugs,
>> wires, coil pack, sensors, etc... Then I decided to check the
>> resistance I was getting off of my injectors after none of that
>> resulted in the miss getting fixed. BINGO! even though I wasn't
>> getting a CEL, the truck was running lean, but not lean enough to
>> throw a code. I had 2 bad injectors, and another 2 reading higher than
>> normal. Normal range is between 13 and 19 Ohms. One was way off
>> intermittently at 54 Ohms, and another was just over 24. the other 2
>> were just about 21 Ohms, definitely out of spec.
>>
>> So I ordered a new set of 6 ( what is the point of just replacing the
>> ones that were bad, seeing the others could go at any time as well)
>> from a place online. $120 for all 6 shipped, can't beat that deal
>> anywhere! And they are FORD parts.
>>
>> Anyway's, after getting them all installed (about 2 hours of work
>> total) The miss was gone and has been running like it was brand new
>> ever since.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was ready to start throwing parts at it
>>
>
>have you replaced your plug WIRES? distributor cap/rotor?
>the wires do get old and begin to break down. Then your plugs will misfire.


Wires are only a couple years old. Took it out for a drive tonight
with the three new plugs in it and it purred like a kitten, not a
single miss. When I get home I'm going to pull one of the plugs on
the other side and see what that side looks like but it seems that
side is OK.

On 05/15/2012 04:45 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Tue, 15 May 2012 18:18:58 -0500, Jim >
> wrote:
>
>> Ashton > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> On Mon, 14 May 2012 17:12:18 -0700, Ashton >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
>>>> saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>>>>

>>>>
>>>> http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>>>>

>>>>
>>>> they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. It scopes out fine
>>>> yet misses. Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
>>>> miles. Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
>>>> injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
>>>> set a code. No codes have popped up. Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
>>>> right up to redline in any gear.
>>>
>>>

>>> Thanks for the replies. From the questions asked here is more info to
>>> answer them and see if anyone has further thoughts.
>>>

>>> The engine runs like new power wise, other then this miss. It doesn't
>>> burn any oil between changes or 3000 mile+. Only needs more coolant
>>> perhaps once or twice a year, never blows white smoke or any other
>>> smoke on startup. The shop that "fixed it" last year said they could
>>> find no problems when I brought it in as it was running fine that day.
>>> The ignition looked "fine" by whatever test equipment they used. I
>>> brought it back two days later because it started acting up again.
>>> This time they could occasionally experience the problem while driving
>>> but could still find nothing when they "tested" it. They did a fuel
>>> injector cleaning and gave it back to me. It ran the same with the
>>> occasional miss. I brought it back. At this point it had some bosch
>>> double plats in it that I had put in about 5K earlier. The mechanic
>>> didn't like the bosch plugs and said he thought it was the plugs even
>>> though they "tested" OK. So I told him to go ahead and put whatever
>>> plugs he liked in it which as Motorcraft copper core. When it got it
>>> back it ran fine and continued to run fine until recently when it
>>> started the same miss again.
>>>

>>> Here's a more complete description of the "miss". Sometimes it will
>>> idle ok but when you start up you can feel a miss that feels like a
>>> single cylinder. That may persist till you get it up to about 2000
>>> rpm and then it goes away. On the freeway it's fine, kick it into
>>> passing gear and it's fine. Sometimes it will have what feels like
>>> the single cylinder miss but as you accelerate normally, say from a
>>> stop light, it gets to 1200 rpm and feels like all of a sudden 2 or 3
>>> cylinders are missing and it losses power significantly. This may
>>> last for a few seconds and then it clears up and goes back to a single
>>> cyl type miss and then goes away. I thought it was ignition till I
>>> read the below...I'm on the road now so I'm just hopping three new
>>> plugs will eliminate the problem for a few weeks.
>>>

>>>
>>> From the net....
>>>

>>> I had the same problem with my '95. Low RPM miss I couldn't track
>>> down. Did all the usual checks/replacements of vacuum leaks, plugs,
>>> wires, coil pack, sensors, etc... Then I decided to check the
>>> resistance I was getting off of my injectors after none of that
>>> resulted in the miss getting fixed. BINGO! even though I wasn't
>>> getting a CEL, the truck was running lean, but not lean enough to
>>> throw a code. I had 2 bad injectors, and another 2 reading higher than
>>> normal. Normal range is between 13 and 19 Ohms. One was way off
>>> intermittently at 54 Ohms, and another was just over 24. the other 2
>>> were just about 21 Ohms, definitely out of spec.
>>>
>>> So I ordered a new set of 6 ( what is the point of just replacing the
>>> ones that were bad, seeing the others could go at any time as well)
>>> from a place online. $120 for all 6 shipped, can't beat that deal
>>> anywhere! And they are FORD parts.
>>>
>>> Anyway's, after getting them all installed (about 2 hours of work
>>> total) The miss was gone and has been running like it was brand new
>>> ever since.
>>>

>>>
>>>
>>> I was ready to start throwing parts at it
>>>
>>
>> have you replaced your plug WIRES? distributor cap/rotor?
>> the wires do get old and begin to break down. Then your plugs will misfire.
>
>
> Wires are only a couple years old. Took it out for a drive tonight
> with the three new plugs in it and it purred like a kitten, not a
> single miss. When I get home I'm going to pull one of the plugs on
> the other side and see what that side looks like but it seems that
> side is OK.

fine, but just like jim is saying, don't dismiss the wires/cap being
dodgy. they may be making connection now because you've just
manipulated them fitting the new plugs, but it doesn't mean they're 100%
good. just like being only 2 years old doesn't mean they're good.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum