A Spark is a Spark is a Spark

On 12 Jun 2005 08:14:23 -0700, "larry moe 'n curly"
> wrote:

>
>
>aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
>> Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell.
>
>> Racing would be about the worst place to run a platinum spark
>> plug.
>
>I'm a novice and have two questions:
>
>1. Why are platinums bad for racing? I thought that they should be
>able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at
>standing high temperatures.

They are not bad for racing, ignore the pig ignorant trolls in here.
I used them in 8 years of racing, cars, karts and motorcycles..

>
>2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
>of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
>but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
>funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug. I realize
>that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
>adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
>more?

Because of finer parmaeters of fuel and ignition control that exist on
modern cars.
A small amount out of spec and some show it more than others, the most
common complaint being poor idle.

Rule of thumb
I run NGK in any Jap machine, car or bike.
Bosch in any Euro wogmobile.
Mess with that rule any you'll find some dont idle so well.
I wouldnt put anything but a Bosch plug in a Beemer for example.

Yank cars and our local product here (based on Yank cars, Ford and GM)
dont give much of a **** what brand you use so long as the rating is
right.

In article
. com>,
"larry moe 'n curly" > wrote:

> aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
> > Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell.
>
> > Racing would be about the worst place to run a platinum spark
> > plug.
>
> I'm a novice and have two questions:
>
> 1. Why are platinums bad for racing? I thought that they should be
> able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at
> standing high temperatures.

The higher pressures inside the combustion chamber can and do
cause the platinum to fall off. It's not a solid platinum core,
the platinum is but a small piece fused to the center and ground
(in the case of double platinum) electrode.
Racers tend to NOT want bits of foreign metal floating around
inside their engines.
If an engine appears to run better on a platinum spark plug, it
really only is a case of [it] covering up a different problem
that has gone undiagnosed and/or unrepaired to begin with.
This last part is where I believe "RV" is coming from.

> 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
> of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
> but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
> funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug.

Many times, other brands of replacement spark plugs are close but
not quite exactly the same as what the OEM designed and installed.
This is why sticking to what came in it from the factory will get
you in less trouble than anything else.
Spending some time with a stack of spark plug catalogs can be
quite revealing; one part number fits various heat ranges in one
brand where numerous part numbers cover those same applications
when looked up by specific OEM applications.
It's nothing more than inventory slight of hand...

> I realize
> that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
> adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
> more?

Timing is adjusted, fuel is adjusted but the spark itself is not
adjusted. The spark can be monitored for whether or not it
occurred and complete combustion took place (miss-fire detection)
but that's about it.

aarcuda69062 wrote:

> In article >,
> RV > wrote:
>
>
>>>Sure. GM wanted a 100K mile "tune up". A standard plug should work
>>>fine but won't last as long. I hate the term "copper plug" since
>>>copper cores are the same in standard, platinum, or iridium plugs.
>>>The electrodes are some sort of nickel alloy.
>>
>>Copper plugs isnt used as an explicit term, more slang for standard
>>plugs.
>
>
> Okay, why don't you explain for us the reason that copper is used
> in a spark plug?

I'll explain. It's a copper core inside the insulator that serves
as a conductor between the center electrode and the contact. There
may also be a resistor somewhere in between to reduce electromagnetic
interference that could screw up electronics including radio
reception.

>>Names used generally refer to the plating not the core.
>
>
> Do you seriously believe that "copper spark plugs" actually have
> a copper plating somewhere, and for gods sake, don't tell us it's
> on one of the electrodes.

A copper plating would corrode and and/or erode quickly under such
conditions.

>>So long as you know what is refered to is all that matters to the
>>topic..
>
>
> You're side stepping.
>
>
>>If you go to the parts store and ask for plat plugs or copper plugs
>>they wont ask you what core you want and will know what you are
>>refering to.
>
>
> Hardly germane to the technical claims that you've made.
>
>
>>>There are some applications where a platinum or iridium plug is
>>>absolutely necessary. My 1995 Acura Integra spec'ed a 1.3 mm gap
>>>and my guess is that a standard plug wouldn't last the 30K miles
>>>that they normal give for regular plugs. The platinum plug was
>>>spec'ed for 60K miles.
>>
>>Longer life is the upside, but the downside is easier to contaminate
>>long before they are "worn"
>
>
> What happened to compression ratio, combustion chamber design and
> valve placement?

"Easier to contaminate"? Sheesh. I ran the ND platinums for the
60K miles recommended. When I pulled them out, the platinum tips
were clean as whistle. The rest of the electrodes/insulator were
heavily oxidized but otherwise intact. Those plugs were probably
good for another 60K miles.

Some manufacturers spec exotic plugs just for the longevity, while
others spec them as a necessary design choice. There are plenty
of engines where a platinum plug was chosen for the former and a
standard plug works just fine (and may even be a choice in the
owner's manual).

>>The GM and the Honda obviously both keep them clean enough to
>> last the longer period, not all engines will.
>
>
> Oh, do tell, how do GMs and Hondas magically keep spark plugs
> "clean enough?"

Of course this doesn't happen by accident. They carefully choose
the plug based on engine design, and pick one that will get hot
enough to stay clean.

larry moe 'n curly wrote:
>
> aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
> > Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell.
>
> > Racing would be about the worst place to run a platinum spark
> > plug.
>
> I'm a novice and have two questions:
>
> 1. Why are platinums bad for racing? I thought that they should be
> able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at
> standing high temperatures.
>

They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by
Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine
as a stressed member of the chassis, basically bolting the rear
suspension and body work to it instead of having a frame. This
design meant that you had to disassemble the whole car to change
the plugs, so the platinum plugs were developed so that they could
go a whole season on one set without changing them.

> 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
> of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
> but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
> funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug. I realize
> that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
> adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
> more?

I know that the Fiero DIS systems will not run properly on
the platinum plugs for more than a few thousand miles before
the plugs are junk. Other cars seem to work just fine on them.

JazzMan
--
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aarcuda69062 wrote:

> In article
> . com>,
> "larry moe 'n curly" > wrote:
>
>
>>aarcuda69062 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell.
>>
>>>Racing would be about the worst place to run a platinum spark
>>>plug.
>>
>>I'm a novice and have two questions:
>>
>>1. Why are platinums bad for racing? I thought that they should be
>>able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at
>>standing high temperatures.
>
>
> The higher pressures inside the combustion chamber can and do
> cause the platinum to fall off. It's not a solid platinum core,
> the platinum is but a small piece fused to the center and ground
> (in the case of double platinum) electrode.
> Racers tend to NOT want bits of foreign metal floating around
> inside their engines.
> If an engine appears to run better on a platinum spark plug, it
> really only is a case of [it] covering up a different problem
> that has gone undiagnosed and/or unrepaired to begin with.
> This last part is where I believe "RV" is coming from.

The quality of the plug can make a difference. I've heard bad
things about Bosch platinum plugs in Japanese cars. Something
about the superthin platinum electrode buried flush with the
insulator melting away. NGK and Denso seem to have the highest
quality platinum plugs.

Besides - lots of weekend racers like to swap out their wear
parts/fluids often. A standard plug will probably survive a
few race weekends and would be cheap to replace.

>>2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
>>of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
>>but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
>>funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug.
>
>
> Many times, other brands of replacement spark plugs are close but
> not quite exactly the same as what the OEM designed and installed.
> This is why sticking to what came in it from the factory will get
> you in less trouble than anything else.
> Spending some time with a stack of spark plug catalogs can be
> quite revealing; one part number fits various heat ranges in one
> brand where numerous part numbers cover those same applications
> when looked up by specific OEM applications.
> It's nothing more than inventory slight of hand...
>
>
>>I realize
>>that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
>>adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
>>more?
>
>
> Timing is adjusted, fuel is adjusted but the spark itself is not
> adjusted. The spark can be monitored for whether or not it
> occurred and complete combustion took place (miss-fire detection)
> but that's about it.

Once the rotor hits the point, what else can be done? Of course
my current car has a distributorless ignition system.

>>>Longer life is the upside, but the downside is easier to contaminate
>>>long before they are "worn"
>>
>>
>> What happened to compression ratio, combustion chamber design and
>> valve placement?
>
>"Easier to contaminate"? Sheesh. I ran the ND platinums for the
>60K miles recommended. When I pulled them out, the platinum tips
>were clean as whistle. The rest of the electrodes/insulator were
>heavily oxidized but otherwise intact. Those plugs were probably
>good for another 60K miles.

Try that with your plat plugs in Nagels Studebaker.
Just doesnt have the head or valve config to keep the nose clean.

Doesnt effect the plat at all, itll work.

If you dont have the CR or CC to keep the nose cone insulators of the
plugs clean for 60,000K, then it doesnt matter a dick if the plugs are
plat or copper, the nose cones will have a conductive coating that the
engine is unable to stop from asccumulating on the plugs insulators
and they will leak power, the plugs wount be worth shiite at idle.

If you dont have the CC to keep the tips clean, a **** load of CR will
do it.
A car with the CC to use plat plugs and be able to keep the insulators
clean for 60 to 100,000 can have any plugs fitted, but if you dont fit
plat plugs and the maker says fit them, then at the next book service
of 60,000 for plugs, the std plugs will be long overdue.

You have a car that can run plat plugs for 60,000k and they are clean,
to be expected, the car has an engine with a CC that can use plat
plugs, and wont dirty them up or contaminate them like an engine that
isnt suited to long life plugs will do.


If you want another definition to describe "contaminated"

Try using some EFI pressure cleaners after you fit new plugs and note
it idles like crap.
Pull the plugs and look at them.
Still look new
Fit another set of new ones and it idles fine
What you got there in your hand left over is a set of newish / 15
minute old, contaminated plugs, that still look new.
Most likely it will warn you of this on the can of EFI pressure
cleaner.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:58:32 GMT, y_p_w > wrote:

>
>
>aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
>> In article
>> . com>,
>> "larry moe 'n curly" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>aarcuda69062 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell.
>>>
>>>>Racing would be about the worst place to run a platinum spark
>>>>plug.
>>>
>>>I'm a novice and have two questions:
>>>
>>>1. Why are platinums bad for racing? I thought that they should be
>>>able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at
>>>standing high temperatures.
>>
>>
>> The higher pressures inside the combustion chamber can and do
>> cause the platinum to fall off. It's not a solid platinum core,
>> the platinum is but a small piece fused to the center and ground
>> (in the case of double platinum) electrode.
>> Racers tend to NOT want bits of foreign metal floating around
>> inside their engines.
>> If an engine appears to run better on a platinum spark plug, it
>> really only is a case of [it] covering up a different problem
>> that has gone undiagnosed and/or unrepaired to begin with.
>> This last part is where I believe "RV" is coming from.
>
>The quality of the plug can make a difference. I've heard bad
>things about Bosch platinum plugs in Japanese cars. Something
>about the superthin platinum electrode buried flush with the
>insulator melting away. NGK and Denso seem to have the highest
>quality platinum plugs.

Same applies for bikes, always used NGK

RV wrote:

>
>>>>Longer life is the upside, but the downside is easier to contaminate
>>>>long before they are "worn"
>>>
>>>
>>>What happened to compression ratio, combustion chamber design and
>>>valve placement?
>>
>>"Easier to contaminate"? Sheesh. I ran the ND platinums for the
>>60K miles recommended. When I pulled them out, the platinum tips
>>were clean as whistle. The rest of the electrodes/insulator were
>>heavily oxidized but otherwise intact. Those plugs were probably
>>good for another 60K miles.
>
>
> Try that with your plat plugs in Nagels Studebaker.
> Just doesnt have the head or valve config to keep the nose clean.

You have to bring up an engine that was built before I was born?

> Doesnt effect the plat at all, itll work.
>
> If you dont have the CR or CC to keep the nose cone insulators of the
> plugs clean for 60,000K, then it doesnt matter a dick if the plugs are
> plat or copper, the nose cones will have a conductive coating that the
> engine is unable to stop from asccumulating on the plugs insulators
> and they will leak power, the plugs wount be worth shiite at idle.
>
> If you dont have the CC to keep the tips clean, a **** load of CR will
> do it.
> A car with the CC to use plat plugs and be able to keep the insulators
> clean for 60 to 100,000 can have any plugs fitted, but if you dont fit
> plat plugs and the maker says fit them, then at the next book service
> of 60,000 for plugs, the std plugs will be long overdue.
>
> You have a car that can run plat plugs for 60,000k and they are clean,
> to be expected, the car has an engine with a CC that can use plat
> plugs, and wont dirty them up or contaminate them like an engine that
> isnt suited to long life plugs will do.

Sure - but the fact is that GM didn't change the design of the 3800
Series II engine to take advantage of platinum plugs. They just
chose the correct platinum plug for the application, and bumped the
"tuneup" to 100K miles along with the Dex-Cool coolant. Most modern
engines will run fine on properly chosen platinum or standard plugs.
The key is "properly chosen".

As for the time interval - anyone who thinks that a standard plug
replacing a factory spec'ed platinum plug will last as long will
have problems. There are several manufacturers that specify
different plug replacement intervals depending on plug type.

I do agree that there are a limited number of engines that need an
exotic plug to run properly. Toyota Camrys of recent vintage need
a dual ground electrode platinum plug. The Honda DOHC VTECs need
a wider gap platinum or iridium plug. However - the GM 3800 Series
II is not one of them. In that case, platinum was solely a design
choice for longevity.

In article >,
RV > wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:27:47 -0400, Nate Nagel >
> wrote:

> >He's right, you're wrong, get over yourself already.
>
> You wouldnt know the diff

Earlier, you cited that "engineers said so," or something to that
effect.

Nate is an engineer, he *would* know the difference.

In article >,
RV > wrote:

> >Wrong again.
> >Then again, no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the
> >basis for explaining something that relates to modern day
> >emissions durability requirements.
>
> Horse****, youve never raced and havent a clue about it.

I'll repeat;
no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the
basis for explaining something that relates to modern day
emissions durability requirements.


> >Tell ya what, I have every major spark plug manufacturers catalog
> >on the shelf, go ahead and cite the maker and catalog page number
> >where *they* recommend using a platinum spark plug in a racing or
> >any other heavy duty application.
> >
>
> Open your eyes for a change.
> Any vehicle that specifies a plug in the book that is a plat plug.

And they are?

> >> >
> >> >> So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use
> >> >> plat plugs.
> >> >
> >> >Malarky.
> >>
> >> So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic
> >
> >Got anything else?
> >
>
> More than you so far.

Not really. All you've offered so far is some techno-babble
about combustion chambers and compression ratios.

> >> >
> >> >> If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then
> >> >> use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean
> >> >> enough such as with racing.
> >> >
> >> >Double malarky.
> >>
> >> So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic
> >
> >Yawn.
> >
> >> >
> >> >> If you dont have the CR for them, or dont have the CC for them to keep
> >> >> the plat plugs clean, they will most likely fouled or as we say for
> >> >> plat plugs, contaminated.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yes we motor mechanics like me who are qualified with 24 yrs working
> >> experience in the trade.
> >
> >Oh. Guess my 35 trumps your 24.
> >ASE Certified Master w/L1, Chevrolet Certified Master,
> >GM Certified Master, Snap-On/Sun Electric Training Manager,
> >Senior referee for the State of Wisconsin IM-240 program.
>
> But raced nothin.

And racing proves what again?
You're some big shot "racer" so we should all kiss your ass and
swallow whatever bull **** offered?
Ain't gonna happen.

> >
> >> >
> >> >> If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all
> >> >> engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as
> >> >> in racing, then you may need to use coppers to warm the engine, then
> >> >> swap to plats, or you may have trouble starting and dirty a new set of
> >> >> plats starting it.
> >> >
> >> >Who invents this crap?
> >>
> >> Engineers.
> >
> >Hardly.
> >
> >> >
> >> >> Hope that helps.
> >> >
> >> >I don't think it did...
> >>
> >> No surprise its no help to you.
> >
> >I'll pass on your help. So should others.
> >
>
> Ill pass on your trolling and lack of any technical points to refute
> any of what I wrote.

And your technical points can be found where?

> Just some idiotic crap about plug catalogues you dont have the sense
> to read properly.

Picking a spark plug according to application from a
manufacturers catalog is "crap" is it?
i can see why you have time for all this "racing" nonsense, I'll
bet that your mechanicing business leaves you with plenty of free
time.

> >If you care to explain the physics of your concocted beliefs,
> >have at it.
>
> Make your point or admit your dont have any argument to dispute
> anythuing I worte, not one line of it.

Again; numerous vehicles have come OEM with both platinum and
non-platinum spark plugs with NO combustion chamber re-design and
NO compression ratio change.
Pretty much blows your 'theories' out of the water.

> > Bear in mind, there are quite a few vehicle
> >applications that have and have had both platinum and
> >non-platinum spark plugs specified by the factory, only
> >difference is model year; same compression ratio, same combustion
> >chamber design, same valve placement.
> >So stop with the pseudo-technical bull**** already.
>
> And you dont have the sense god gave the common dog to figure out what
> that means obviously.

Sure I do, it means that you're full of ****.

> 35 yrs on tools, bull****, youre a child.

'Scuze me?
And your 20 years at the local Jiffy-Lube is good for what?