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134a Refrigerant



 
 
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  #791  
Old July 16th 05, 09:51 PM
Matt Macchiarolo
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I think out building was built in the late 50's/early 60's and these are
probably the originial units. There may have been a cooling tower at one
point, there is a frame on the roof that was a support for some kind of
machinery....maybe it toasted and the owner at the time didn't want to
replace it so he rigged a city water inlet and sewer dump...

The compressors are discontinued, we know, and we have one unit running on
only one compressor (normally there are 2) and it's not keeping up with
these hot humid days. he's going to try to retrofit a newer compressor into
it. He is a former employee of our old HVAC company who works for a
different one, but we subcontract out the work direct to him. He also
happens to be the husband of one of our staff...

"Sarge" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Macchiarolo" wrote in message: "Just curious, are you qualified to
> work on old York commercial A/C units?
> Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat
> exchanger...there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any
> experience on them. We tried another repair company and they just screwed
> the whole thing up. right now our systems take water from the city line,
> uses it for the heat transfer from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the
> sewer. As expensive as our water bills are in the summer, it' still
> cheaper
> than replacing the units for a 24,000 squ ft building...we still might try
> to install a closed-loop water system with radiators on the roof but
> that's
> mucho dinero as well, and with the economy in MI the way it is we have to
> spend every spare penny on promotion to get the customers in...."
>
> What you describing is a unit that uses the water to condense the
> refrigerant. Many commercial units of that size used a cooling water
> tower
> to recycle the water back into the system. Water was only made up to the
> tower as it evaporated. Other cost was associated with this. You must
> add
> chemicals to the tower to maintain the algae levels and conductivity are
> you
> will have a problem. Despite the cost of replacement, it may be
> beneficial
> due to running more economical system over a given time period. Better
> Seer
> rating and less maintenance.
>
> I worked at a large industrial complex. We have commercial AC units that
> are still running since they were put in 1954. Parts are not available
> for
> some. They have been modified by the on site HVAC man. The wiring
> diagrams
> do not mean crap because he rewired them to keep them running. They won't
> replace the unit unless it cannot be fixed.
>
> We also have large chillers on the plant. York Refrigeration has a
> contract
> to repair these. Most use are newer then the AC units we have on the
> plant.
> It comes down to simple economics. Replace a chiller that may cost 350
> thousand dollars because it is better then having down time and loosing a
> million dollars a day in lost production. However no lose production
> occurs
> when a HVAC unit goes out. Office workers suffer due to the no AC but
> they
> just moved their meetings to a building where the AC is working.
>
> The HVAC repair company on the plant has switch 5 times since I been there
> but they all hire the guy that has been working on the units due to his
> knowledge of the equipment. He makes his on hours and they give him a
> vehicle to come back and forth to work in. He is at work at 3 AM and home
> by 1 AM Monday through Thursday. This man is unbelievable. He takes
> every
> unit apart once a year and cleans the unit and waxes both inside and
> outside.
>
> Sarge
>
>



Ads
  #792  
Old July 16th 05, 10:05 PM
L.W.(ßill) Hughes III
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Hi Sandman,
But, it dry. ;-)
Great analogy.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

"Nathan W. Collier" wrote:
>
> swamp coolers suck in most applications. totally different principle from a
> water cooled condensor.
>
> take a red hot piece of steel and blow a fan over it. now take a red hot
> piece of steel and dunk it under water. which cools it faster? :-) water
> cooled condensors run hot refrigerant through a tube that is inside another
> tube running water through it. its very effiicient, effective, and quiet.
>
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://InlineDiesel.com
> http://7SlotGrille.com
> http://UtilityOffRoad.com
> http://BighornRefrigeration.com

  #793  
Old July 16th 05, 10:15 PM
Sarge
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"L.W. (ßill) Hughes III" wrote in message: We have swap coolers out here in
our deserts, but I can't imagine
how water could be used to cool a refrigerant, how it could be more
efficient than just a regular condenser cooled by air being blown through
it. Would it still use something like freon to take the heat out of the
building?'


Water is not the refrigerant. The water is used instead of air on the
condenser. Water is used in a lot of system that have a high heat load.
The water helps condense the refrigerant back into a liquid after it has
been compressed. The liquid refrigerant then passes through a metering
device (capillary tube, orifice, expansion valve) to feed the evaporator.
The air that passes over the evaporator transfers heat with the refrigerant.
This turns the freon back to a gas. It then gets compressed again and the
cycle starts over.

If water is used on the condenser, the water is either disposed or recycled
in a closed loop system. Water can come from the city supply and use to
supply water to your water heater. What not used is sent to the sewer,
drain or pumped into the ground. If ground water is used, water is pumped
to the condenser and back to the ground.

If the system is closed loop, the water is circulated from the condenser in
to a tower called a cooling water tower. Air then cools the water back off
and it is pumped back to system. Make up water is needed and the water must
be chemically treated to prevent algae and conductivity problems with the
metal. The cooling water tower usually has a fan that pulls air upward
while the water drains downward.

These type of system are used where they may be one unit supplying multiple
evaporators. This allows individual zones to be adjust their temperature
without affecting other zones. In order for the unit to run properly there
is probably a spill back line that is adjusted to allow minimum refrigerant
flow yet will close down when a load is needed, This is one problem area on
the units is the spill back valve. They can stick in one position thus
causing HVAC problems.

Sarge


  #794  
Old July 16th 05, 10:42 PM
L.W.(ßill) Hughes III
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Thanks Sarge.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/


Sarge wrote:
>
> Water is not the refrigerant. The water is used instead of air on the
> condenser. Water is used in a lot of system that have a high heat load.
> The water helps condense the refrigerant back into a liquid after it has
> been compressed. The liquid refrigerant then passes through a metering
> device (capillary tube, orifice, expansion valve) to feed the evaporator.
> The air that passes over the evaporator transfers heat with the refrigerant.
> This turns the freon back to a gas. It then gets compressed again and the
> cycle starts over.
>
> If water is used on the condenser, the water is either disposed or recycled
> in a closed loop system. Water can come from the city supply and use to
> supply water to your water heater. What not used is sent to the sewer,
> drain or pumped into the ground. If ground water is used, water is pumped
> to the condenser and back to the ground.
>
> If the system is closed loop, the water is circulated from the condenser in
> to a tower called a cooling water tower. Air then cools the water back off
> and it is pumped back to system. Make up water is needed and the water must
> be chemically treated to prevent algae and conductivity problems with the
> metal. The cooling water tower usually has a fan that pulls air upward
> while the water drains downward.
>
> These type of system are used where they may be one unit supplying multiple
> evaporators. This allows individual zones to be adjust their temperature
> without affecting other zones. In order for the unit to run properly there
> is probably a spill back line that is adjusted to allow minimum refrigerant
> flow yet will close down when a load is needed, This is one problem area on
> the units is the spill back valve. They can stick in one position thus
> causing HVAC problems.
>
> Sarge

  #795  
Old July 18th 05, 05:08 AM
Stephen Cowell
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"L.W. (=DFill) Hughes III" > wrote in message =
...
> Stephen Cowell wrote:
> >=20
> > It would be much easier to let others tell the tale...
> >=20
> > http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/we...mical+compound
> >=20
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound
> >=20
> > Particularly edifying are the following, from Wiki:
> >=20
> > <>
> > A chemical compound is a chemical substance formed from two or more =

elements, with a fixed ratio determining the composition. For example, =
dihydrogen monoxide (water, H2O) is a compound composed of two hydrogen =
atoms for every oxygen atom.
> >=20
> > In general, this fixed ratio must be fixed due to some sort of =

physical property, rather than an arbitrary man-made selection. This is =
why materials such as brass, the superconductor YBCO, the semiconductor =
aluminium gallium arsenide, or chocolate are considered mixtures or =
alloys rather than compounds.
> > </>
> > __
> > Steve
> > .


>The operative word in my question was "YOU" and you failed again.=20


I believe that I told you what I think the definitions are...
don't you think that I knew this before I googled them?
Why else would I say that you don't have a clue as to
the proper chemistry definition of a mixture or a compound?
At least now you know... that is, if you'll believe some Liberal
Academic sources... I wonder where the Republicon Non-
Academic sources are?
__
Steve
..


  #796  
Old July 18th 05, 05:15 AM
Stephen Cowell
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"Nathan W. Collier" > wrote in message =
...
> "Stephen Cowell" > wrote in message=20
> m...
> > You don't understand the difference between
> > a mixture and a chemical compound.

>=20
> yes oh yes, only you could possibly know that. <rolling eyes>
>=20
> typical ego of a liberal, nobody knows but you.


Ad Hominem... abusive. Red Herring, as well.

Recall your big howler...

> yeah no ****! refrigerant is a compound, a MIXTURE and when you add =

up all=20
> the components they are heavier than the individual components.


Two big mistakes... mistaking compound for mixture, and
saying that the mixture weighs more than the individual
components. I almost ****ed myself, laughing!

I assure you that there are plenty of folk of both
political parties who understand the issue here...
you just happen to be one of the ignorant Righties. : P
__
Steve
..

  #797  
Old July 18th 05, 05:16 AM
Stephen Cowell
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Default


"Nathan W. Collier" > wrote in message =
...
> "Stephen Cowell" > wrote in message=20
> m...
> > Hey, if you can put your head completely in the
> > sand, I can propose reasonable thought-experiments!

>=20
> TRANSLATION --> "im a liar"


Indeed you are!
__
Steve
..

  #798  
Old July 18th 05, 05:24 AM
Stephen Cowell
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"Nathan W. Collier" > wrote in message =
...
> "Stephen Cowell" > wrote in message=20
> ...
> >I find all kinds of references to it otherwise... I claim
> >popular use.

>=20
> .....what a dumbass. you cannot change an entire industry because it =

fits=20
> your argument. liar.


Show the lie... or FOAD.
=20
> > Typical Republicon... avoid the issue, attack the source,
> > claim cheating when no evidence is shown.

>=20
> more babble. i nailed you on it. i recognize my limitations and=20
> immediately own it. you lie, make excuses, and attempt to dazzle us =

with=20
> bull**** in hopes of hiding your blatent ignorance.


You don't have a clue about your limitations... imagine you,
an HVAC tech, making pronouncements about atmospheric
science! That shows *extreme* hubris... you deserve what
you get.
=20
> > Suppose you tell me why the head pressure control
> > couldn't be bypassed, as long as a) ambient doesn't
> > drop

>=20
> because its irrelevant dumb ass. the criteria was subzero temps =

otherwise=20
> you would have no excuse not to change the HMC.


No, the criteria was replacement of the HMC on a rooftop...
it could have started leaking, or otherwise malfunctioned.
You're *really* grasping at straws now... trying to weasel
in another condition! I must be right!
=20
> > But you did indeed back away from your
> > complaining about, then using, a brand name.

>=20
> liar. i complained about his definition of a brand name.


Oohh.... calling me a liar some more! **** up a rope.
If you'd had half a brain in your head, you'd have
said "Freon is a brand, Freon 22 is a compound!"...
but that half a brain went wanting.
=20
> > He described Freon as a compound.

>=20
> wrong liar. he _defined_ freon as a compound. to quote: "freon is a=20
> compound".


You gonna do some Clintonesque squirming about
the definition of 'is'? Can you name a Freon that
is not a compound?

> > you said
> > it was not. That is most certainly mistaken.

>=20
> mistaken? dictionary.com =

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=3Dfreon=20
> defines it as:
>=20
> "A trademark used for a variety of nonflammable gaseous or liquid=20
> fluorinated hydrocarbons employed primarily as working fluids in=20
> refrigeration and air conditioning and as aerosol propellants."
>=20
> it is a trademark used. it is not a compound, a mixture, or anything =

else.=20
> im right, youre wrong, now spin and lie like a good liberal.
>=20
> liar.


Keep squirming... it's fun to watch!
__
Steve
..

  #799  
Old July 18th 05, 05:31 AM
Stephen Cowell
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"Nathan W. Collier" > wrote in message =
...
> "Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message=20
> ...
> > Just curious, are you qualified to work on old York commercial A/C =

units?
>=20
> yes. the only area i dont consider myself qualified on yet is ground=20
> source/geo thermal. i have field experience and can work through most =


> issues but have no formal training on them yet. ill be in the next =

course=20
> offered by water furnace.


Do you do cryo?
__
Steve
..

  #800  
Old July 18th 05, 05:36 AM
Stephen Cowell
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"L.W. (=DFill) Hughes III" > wrote in message =
...
> Stephen Cowell wrote:
> >=20
> > Another howler! It *damn* sure doesn't equal Pi...
> > Pi is one of the *irrational* numbers... that means,
> > for you folk that haven't had advanced math as
> > Bill and I have, that it *can't* be represented as
> > a ratio of integers. 22/7 is only good out to three
> > digits... if you can rattle off 3.1415927 like a phone
> > number, you don't need that 22/7 thing anyway.


> Point is I have "3.14" memorized, you obviously couldn't =

remember,
> otherwise you wouldn't have written: "3..."=20


Recall the beforeposts:
Bill:
>>Just so you now know, the volume change created by mixing is their
>>new density.=20

Me:
>Bill's new science... volume =3D density!
>That's even better than Pi =3D 3... and
>explains the supposed 'weightiness' of
>his scientific posts. Taken by volume,
>they *are* impressive!


I merely compared it to Pi =3D 3... I never
asserted that you asserted that Pi =3D 3.
How's that for complex?
__
Steve
..




 




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