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Tyres again



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 28th 04, 11:58 AM
Tony Rickard
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Default Tyres again

Having had to change all four tyres on my 156 V6 I engaged in a few
conversations with tyre sellers. This view that rear tyres should be better
than fronts on FWDs really seems to have taken hold in the instructions
coming from the manufacturers.

One seller tried to persuade me to have harder compounds on the front so
they would last longer and ensure the best grip was at the back.

In the end I plumped for Bridgestone S03s which I am really pleased with,
much better grip than the Contisports especially in the wet.

I am still of the view that if people want to abruptly lift off or brake on
reverse camber tightening bends the balance of tyres isn't going to save
them and that the real enemy of FWDs is understeer.

My personal view is that the manufacturers are simply covering themselves
from the general public. If people understeer off then they are driving too
fast if they oversteer off it is the tyres fault.

Cheers
Tony


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  #2  
Old November 28th 04, 07:09 PM
Zathras
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Default

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:58:47 GMT, "Tony Rickard"
> wrote:

>Having had to change all four tyres on my 156 V6 I engaged in a few
>conversations with tyre sellers. This view that rear tyres should be better
>than fronts on FWDs really seems to have taken hold in the instructions
>coming from the manufacturers.


Little wonder..it's the correct procedure for the vast majority of
people.

>One seller tried to persuade me to have harder compounds on the front so
>they would last longer and ensure the best grip was at the back.


?

>In the end I plumped for Bridgestone S03s which I am really pleased with,
>much better grip than the Contisports especially in the wet.


Interesting..I find the Contis ok in the wet (being in the West of
Scotland, this is our normal weather condition!)

>I am still of the view that if people want to abruptly lift off or brake on
>reverse camber tightening bends the balance of tyres isn't going to save
>them and that the real enemy of FWDs is understeer.


The vast majority of people have no clue how to handle a car that is
oversteering and lose the plot instantly. In this case, the ONLY
option is to promote the *simpler* understeer. This is because
understeer is less dramatic and easier to spot in advance than a car
spinning from the rear. The hapless driver is less likely to make a
complete mess of understeer than oversteer and so, maybe, recover.

Of course, if the road speed is so high that a crash is inevitable,
manufacturers seem to want us to go in front first rather than
spinning - I wonder if it's to do with crumple zones and air bags etc.
My understanding is that whiplash is a serious problem for rear end
crashes with most current cars. The 156 is as poor in this respect as
it appears to be in all other areas of occupant protection in a crash.

>My personal view is that the manufacturers are simply covering themselves
>from the general public. If people understeer off then they are driving too
>fast if they oversteer off it is the tyres fault.


Doubt it..the police are pretty good at calculating speeds from skid
marks. In any case, slide off a road at a corner and they'll start off
on the assumption that you were going too fast for the conditions
anyway before they measure up and prove it.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
  #3  
Old November 28th 04, 11:03 PM
Tony Rickard
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Default

"Zathras" wrote:

> Interesting..I find the Contis ok in the wet (being in the West of
> Scotland, this is our normal weather condition!)


The Contis were fine but the SO3s are noticeably better. Admittedly the
Contis were well worn when they came off, but my recollection when new was
not as grippy in the wet and it has been pretty wet in the South West too!

The SO3s were noticeably noisier mind. Either they have settled in or I have
got used to them.

I have been quite astonished at the wet grip to the point of seeing how far
I have to push to get the yellow traction light on - A tricky one to explain
to the local constabulary

>>My personal view is that the manufacturers are simply covering themselves
>>from the general public. If people understeer off then they are driving
>>too
>>fast if they oversteer off it is the tyres fault.

>
> Doubt it..the police are pretty good at calculating speeds from skid
> marks. In any case, slide off a road at a corner and they'll start off
> on the assumption that you were going too fast for the conditions
> anyway before they measure up and prove it.


I am probably biased as we have local bend where people regularly fall off
backwards in bad conditions, and an article in the local paper had the
latest victim complaining they weren't speeding so it was the fault of the
bend. There was never a suggestion that the person was anything but an
innocent victim let alone police action. The bend tightens and people react
with aggressive steering and abruptly lift or brake. So I should concede
that possibly greater grip at the rear would help them, but I don't think it
would make a big enough difference.

The bend is being modified as we speak. Christ knows what will happen if we
get any snow in the south west cos we have generations who have never driven
in it and believe speed limits protect them.

In my view there is sufficient understeer built into a modern FWD that you
would need bald or hardened tyres on the rear to cause oversteer without
really provoking it.

Then again I am sure Steve H will testify that the 33 he bought from me with
old and hard rear tyres can oversteer quite nicely, so I am probably not the
best person to pass judgement!

Cheers
Tony


  #4  
Old November 29th 04, 11:43 PM
Zathras
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:03:25 GMT, "Tony Rickard"
> wrote:

>"Zathras" wrote:
>
>> Interesting..I find the Contis ok in the wet (being in the West of
>> Scotland, this is our normal weather condition!)

>
>The Contis were fine but the SO3s are noticeably better. Admittedly the
>Contis were well worn when they came off, but my recollection when new was
>not as grippy in the wet and it has been pretty wet in the South West too!


This is the trouble..my front contis are 28000 miles and 3.5 years
old. Although legal, remoulds would offer better grip now. They were a
lot better when newer but I can hardly remember that now!

>The SO3s were noticeably noisier mind. Either they have settled in or I have
>got used to them.
>
>I have been quite astonished at the wet grip to the point of seeing how far
>I have to push to get the yellow traction light on - A tricky one to explain
>to the local constabulary


My car doesn't need or have traction control. :-)

<snip>
>The bend is being modified as we speak. Christ knows what will happen if we
>get any snow in the south west cos we have generations who have never driven
>in it and believe speed limits protect them.


This is VERY true. I haven't seen decent snow here in years however,
with the ground *clearance* I have I'll not be playing in it with my
156 sadly!

>In my view there is sufficient understeer built into a modern FWD that you
>would need bald or hardened tyres on the rear to cause oversteer without
>really provoking it.


Trouble is, if you're in a situation where a slide of any sort is on
the cards, a clumsy or scared-out-of-her-wits driver can provoke
anything. My wife proved this when the JTD was new (on new tyres all
round) when she got the tail to lurch out on a high speed corner by
taking her foot off the accelerator and braking (brown trousers for
the passenger - me - that time!!)

<snip>

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
  #5  
Old November 30th 04, 12:28 PM
Dr Entropy
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:43:56 GMT, Zathras > pee'd inna snow,
the following:

X:On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:03:25 GMT, "Tony Rickard"
> wrote:
X:
X:>"Zathras" wrote:
X:>
X:>> Interesting..I find the Contis ok in the wet (being in the West of
X:>> Scotland, this is our normal weather condition!)
X:>
X:>The Contis were fine but the SO3s are noticeably better. Admittedly the
X:>Contis were well worn when they came off, but my recollection when new was
X:>not as grippy in the wet and it has been pretty wet in the South West too!
X:
X:This is the trouble..my front contis are 28000 miles and 3.5 years
Xld. Although legal, remoulds would offer better grip now. They were a
X:lot better when newer but I can hardly remember that now!
X:
X:>The SO3s were noticeably noisier mind. Either they have settled in or I have
X:>got used to them.
X:>
X:>I have been quite astonished at the wet grip to the point of seeing how far
X:>I have to push to get the yellow traction light on - A tricky one to explain
X:>to the local constabulary
X:
X:My car doesn't need or have traction control. :-)
X:
X:<snip>
X:>The bend is being modified as we speak. Christ knows what will happen if we
X:>get any snow in the south west cos we have generations who have never driven
X:>in it and believe speed limits protect them.
X:
X:This is VERY true. I haven't seen decent snow here in years however,
X:with the ground *clearance* I have I'll not be playing in it with my
X:156 sadly!
X:
X:>In my view there is sufficient understeer built into a modern FWD that you
X:>would need bald or hardened tyres on the rear to cause oversteer without
X:>really provoking it.
X:
X:Trouble is, if you're in a situation where a slide of any sort is on
X:the cards, a clumsy or scared-out-of-her-wits driver can provoke
X:anything. My wife proved this when the JTD was new (on new tyres all
X:round) when she got the tail to lurch out on a high speed corner by
X:taking her foot off the accelerator and braking (brown trousers for
X:the passenger - me - that time!!)
X:
X:<snip>

Old School he If I get into a car I know has a tendency to 'push' I drive it like Auntie would.
I ~like~ some oversteer. With RWD, If the front-end scrubs I push th' loud button a bit harder and
go to work, No Prob... FWD is the Devil's doin' I tell ya! ;-}

Many a mate has laughed at me for this understeer fobia... until I've strapped 'em into the Elan
and taken 'em for a demo of controlled oversteer...

BWUHAAHAAAA!!!!!!! "That's gonna itch when it dries, mate!"


Dr E--
mhm 17x1

Linux: Load it, Learn it, Love it.
  #6  
Old November 30th 04, 01:21 PM
Dr Entropy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:58:47 GMT, "Tony Rickard" > pee'd inna
snow, the following:

X:Having had to change all four tyres on my 156 V6 I engaged in a few
X:conversations with tyre sellers. This view that rear tyres should be better
X:than fronts on FWDs really seems to have taken hold in the instructions
X:coming from the manufacturers.
X:
X:One seller tried to persuade me to have harder compounds on the front so
X:they would last longer and ensure the best grip was at the back.

This paradigm seems to be aimed straight at novice or timid drivers IMHO.
Front draggers tend to 'push' at limit, so I'd want the stickiest thing I could get on the front
set. The back hasn't much choice but to go along for the ride then. If you're at limit and it
scrubbs, steer into it a bit and put yer boot in it. Recovery is imminent that way (as long as
there's consistent pavement ;=).

X:In the end I plumped for Bridgestone S03s which I am really pleased with,
X:much better grip than the Contisports especially in the wet.

I recently tried out Michelin's newest rain spreaders. Marketed here (US) as "HydroEdge". Stellar
wet performance on the Spider. No idea how long they'll last but I like 'em enuff to go for another
round. When the "family transporter" (old Benz 300D Turbo-- "Diesela" by name) needs shod, she'll
get 'em as well.

X:I am still of the view that if people want to abruptly lift off or brake on
X:reverse camber tightening bends the balance of tyres isn't going to save
X:them and that the real enemy of FWDs is understeer.

Mainly due to the loose nut behind th' wheel IMHO! Off-camber decreasing radius turns are to be
treated with utmost respect. If you're goin' out to play fast n' loose on HM Public Roads, it'd be
a good idea to "walk the course" so's to have info beforehand... Physics will out.

X:My personal view is that the manufacturers are simply covering themselves
X:from the general public. If people understeer off then they are driving too
X:fast if they oversteer off it is the tyres fault.

umm...and if they spill a cuppa McD's hot coffee in their crotch??? SUE Mickey D!!!
Where's the the: "I am the Commander of my ship" philosophy? Tyre guages? Training?
With the rash of Ford SUV's flipping over here inna States, Firestone should have DEMANDED proof of
proper maintenance: Proper tyre pressures, adherence to speed limits, driver experience(!) and road
conditions. Instead, they took it "inna shorts" for said "general public's" PC attitude. They
shoulda said "Okay-okay. Here's your settlement. Unfortunately it's broken us, so now we'll stick
exclusively to making pram tyres. Go sue Goodyear for your ineptitude from now on." God save the
babies.

Too much litigation, not enuff responsibility IMHO. A sudden patch of black ice would be one of the
few mitigating conditions for calling a shunt an "accident" and even that's stretching it.

Bit of a rant there... sorry. I'm not as restrained as you, Tony ;-}

X:
X:Cheers
X:Tony
X:

Dr E--
mhm 17x1

Linux: Load it, Learn it, Love it.
  #7  
Old November 30th 04, 04:15 PM
Zathras
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Default

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:28:08 -0500, Dr Entropy >
wrote:

<snip>
>
>Old School he


Yes, I'm an old f@rt too!

>If I get into a car I know has a tendency to 'push' I drive it like Auntie would.


Why? Plenty of rather good rally cars were front wheel drive..you old
enough to remember Mini's and Saabs (IIRC) beating RWD?

>I ~like~ some oversteer. With RWD, If the front-end scrubs I push th' loud button a bit harder and
>go to work, No Prob...


On the road these days, I prefer something that's a bit tidier..4
wheel drive..or..failing that, a front wheel drive Alfa will do
nicely. Tail (or front) out on tarmac just loses you speed Doc!

>FWD is the Devil's doin' I tell ya! ;-}


I'm going to Hell anyway..might as well practice with the appropriate
technology then.

>Many a mate has laughed at me for this understeer fobia... until I've strapped 'em into the Elan
>and taken 'em for a demo of controlled oversteer...
>
>BWUHAAHAAAA!!!!!!! "That's gonna itch when it dries, mate!"


I'd go for a 7 myself..the Elan is a bit of a luxury barge by
comparison! ;-)

In any case, a rear wheel drive replacement for my 156 would likely be
German..so..no..I'll just stick to the rather nicely balanced (and
over-steerable) 156 for now. YMMV!

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
  #8  
Old November 30th 04, 09:19 PM
Tony Rickard
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Zathras" wrote:

> In any case, a rear wheel drive replacement for my 156 would likely be
> German..


BLASPHEMY! You're only making it worse for yourself


  #9  
Old December 1st 04, 10:17 PM
Zathras
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:19:19 GMT, "Tony Rickard"
> wrote:

>"Zathras" wrote:
>
>> In any case, a rear wheel drive replacement for my 156 would likely be
>> German..

>
>BLASPHEMY! You're only making it worse for yourself


Provocative eh?! Where else would you get a 156 competitor with
rear-wheel drive though?

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
 




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