2004TJ front end wobble

did pass the time by typing:
> Doug -
>
> Thanks. That sounds straightforward. Front and rear shocks
> replacement or just front?

I'd do both. Most places have a discount for buying a whole set.
But if it's not in the budget...

> Any recommendation on (highway) shocks and stabilizers to use for
> replacement? I drive mostly highway (daily driver).

Anything but the RS 5000 shocks as they are WAY stiff according to
what I've heard here. I run the edelbrock IAS shock and have been
pleased with the handling. The adjustable ones are neet, both edelbrock
and rancho make them. Not much need unless you like to play with the
suspension settings though.
Possibly DT3000. http://www.rockymountainsusp.com/W_shocks_Doetsch.htm
Although they are a bit on the pricy side.

My opinions on shocks will not quite be best for you. The ZJ is a bit
heavier than your TJ. But my driving style is agressive so a harder
ride is more to my liking.

> SO - to summarize so far:
>
> - I'll jack up the vehicle tonight (maybe tomorrow, worst case
> Saturday...) and look at wear and play where there shouldn't be such.
> Especially track bar and stabilizer shock... I'm scheduling the dealer
> for next week.
>
> - I'll find replacement shocks and stabilizer shock, and get wheels
> balanced and alignment checked, while having the dealer check for any
> specific problem just for laughs, while he replaces the fan switch or
> fan switch relay under warrantee...
>
> - I'll check if the wheel balance and alignment changed or eliminated
> the problem - I'll still plan on replacing the shocks and stabilizer
> soon in any case, but sooner if the problem persists.
>
> - I'll post what the dealer finds, and the results of fixing just the
> balance and alignment at this point, then follow up with the result of
> changing the shocks and stabilizers.

Sounds like your on the right track. You should also check the sway
bar bushings and track bar bushings while your under there.

--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors
Banks Header - and BEER, in the fridge!

I've just encountered DW in the last couple weeks. Now I'm ever conscious
of my steering and any and all bumps I'm hitting. Of course everything
seems bigger than what I thought of it before the DW.

Both my "events" occured while going at a good clip down some rather bumpy
roads....then all of a sudden I could feel the oscillation start and then
both front wheels were just dancing to their own tunes and I had to slow
down to 20kph to get them settled!

Anyhow, my steering dampener seems to be leaky....but not sure if it's that
or the dirted oil the 'tards at Cantire spilled over my engine! Hosers!

Anyways, I'm looking in to see if this job is over my head or not. I've got
some half decent mechanical skills but haven't dealth with tie-rods or
bushings or such....
I've got my service manual....so some clues on what to do...just don't have
the tools (yet

looking forward to see what you find out!

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Doug -
>
> Thanks. That sounds straightforward. Front and rear shocks
> replacement or just front?
>
> Any recommendation on (highway) shocks and stabilizers to use for
> replacement? I drive mostly highway (daily driver).
>
> SO - to summarize so far:
>
> - I'll jack up the vehicle tonight (maybe tomorrow, worst case
> Saturday...) and look at wear and play where there shouldn't be such.
> Especially track bar and stabilizer shock... I'm scheduling the dealer
> for next week.
>
> - I'll find replacement shocks and stabilizer shock, and get wheels
> balanced and alignment checked, while having the dealer check for any
> specific problem just for laughs, while he replaces the fan switch or
> fan switch relay under warrantee...
>
> - I'll check if the wheel balance and alignment changed or eliminated
> the problem - I'll still plan on replacing the shocks and stabilizer
> soon in any case, but sooner if the problem persists.
>
> - I'll post what the dealer finds, and the results of fixing just the
> balance and alignment at this point, then follow up with the result of
> changing the shocks and stabilizers.
>
> That's what I see so far.
> --doug
>

http://www.stu-offroad.com/steering/stab/stab-1.htm
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Steve wrote:
>
> I've just encountered DW in the last couple weeks. Now I'm ever conscious
> of my steering and any and all bumps I'm hitting. Of course everything
> seems bigger than what I thought of it before the DW.
>
> Both my "events" occured while going at a good clip down some rather bumpy
> roads....then all of a sudden I could feel the oscillation start and then
> both front wheels were just dancing to their own tunes and I had to slow
> down to 20kph to get them settled!
>
> Anyhow, my steering dampener seems to be leaky....but not sure if it's that
> or the dirted oil the 'tards at Cantire spilled over my engine! Hosers!
>
> Anyways, I'm looking in to see if this job is over my head or not. I've got
> some half decent mechanical skills but haven't dealth with tie-rods or
> bushings or such....
> I've got my service manual....so some clues on what to do...just don't have
> the tools (yet
>
> looking forward to see what you find out!

Thanks Bill...

Has Mike Romain gone MIA? I've been away for a few weeks but haven't seen
any posts by him in a while!


"L.W. ("ßill") Hughes III" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.stu-offroad.com/steering/stab/stab-1.htm
> God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> http://www.billhughes.com/
>
> Steve wrote:
>>
>> I've just encountered DW in the last couple weeks. Now I'm ever
>> conscious
>> of my steering and any and all bumps I'm hitting. Of course everything
>> seems bigger than what I thought of it before the DW.
>>
>> Both my "events" occured while going at a good clip down some rather
>> bumpy
>> roads....then all of a sudden I could feel the oscillation start and then
>> both front wheels were just dancing to their own tunes and I had to slow
>> down to 20kph to get them settled!
>>
>> Anyhow, my steering dampener seems to be leaky....but not sure if it's
>> that
>> or the dirted oil the 'tards at Cantire spilled over my engine! Hosers!
>>
>> Anyways, I'm looking in to see if this job is over my head or not. I've
>> got
>> some half decent mechanical skills but haven't dealth with tie-rods or
>> bushings or such....
>> I've got my service manual....so some clues on what to do...just don't
>> have
>> the tools (yet
>>
>> looking forward to see what you find out!

Nope, they're off doing what Real Jeepers do. Can't wait for more
pictures.
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Steve wrote:
>
> Thanks Bill...
>
> Has Mike Romain gone MIA? I've been away for a few weeks but haven't seen
> any posts by him in a while!

I had an 03' Jeep Wrangler X that started with the DW's at around
35k and my first encounter was on the highway
in rush hour traffic at around 50mph.
I discovered that if I accelerated rapidly through 50mph to 60 or higher, it
was not much of a problem. But in traffic if I had to enter the 50mph mark
slowly then I was done for.
The stealership could not find anything wrong with the vehicle, other than
to tell me that I had to rotate my tires every 3,000 miles.
I was running Goodyear MTR's and at 45k those tires were toast.
So I switched to a street tire (BFG radial long trail T/A)and have
never had a problem since, the car runs so smooth that its hard to
believe your actually in a Jeep.
Of course I know that those street tires made me look like a wimp.
But with all the highway mileage I was putting on that car I had no choice.
My current vehicle is a Jeep Rubicon and it also has MTR's so I'm
waiting for the DW's to begin soon.

David
KORL PP-ASEL

DW is caused by a combination of things and is actually a problem with
vehicles besides the Jeep too. It is normally 'triggered' by either a
sharp impact, jolt, out of balance tire, or out of round/bent wheel.
One of those usually triggers it. Then what often lets it fully develop
into true Death Wobble is something loose in the front end. The most
common cause is the lower mounting bolt holding the trackbar to the axle
is too loose. It won't SEEM loose if you grab it and try to move it but
that doesn't mean it's not loose enough to allow DW to develop. To make
sure, tighten that bolt to 55 ft-lbs.

Then loose ball joints, bad bushings, even a bad (loose) hub can allow
it to develop. Sometimes even the toe-in can be off enough to encourage
DW. But tire balance and a loose trackbar mounting bolt is the
combination that seems to be the most common cause. The tire cannot be
balanced to just "good enough" when this problem happens, the front
tires must be 'perfectly' balanced.

The steering stabilizer, if bad, can seem to "cause" death wobble but
even when bad, it's never actually the root cause of DW, it just keeps
it at bay when it's in good condition.

Good luck, this problem is fixable. My TJ had SEVERE Death Wobble 5-6
years ago for about a month until I was able to figure out the cause
(tire balance and loose trackbar mounting bolt). I haven't had DW since.

Jerry

Steve wrote:
> I've just encountered DW in the last couple weeks. Now I'm ever conscious
> of my steering and any and all bumps I'm hitting. Of course everything
> seems bigger than what I thought of it before the DW.
>
> Both my "events" occured while going at a good clip down some rather bumpy
> roads....then all of a sudden I could feel the oscillation start and then
> both front wheels were just dancing to their own tunes and I had to slow
> down to 20kph to get them settled!
>
> Anyhow, my steering dampener seems to be leaky....but not sure if it's that
> or the dirted oil the 'tards at Cantire spilled over my engine! Hosers!
>
> Anyways, I'm looking in to see if this job is over my head or not. I've got
> some half decent mechanical skills but haven't dealth with tie-rods or
> bushings or such....
> I've got my service manual....so some clues on what to do...just don't have
> the tools (yet
>
> looking forward to see what you find out!
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Doug -
>>
>>Thanks. That sounds straightforward. Front and rear shocks
>>replacement or just front?
>>
>>Any recommendation on (highway) shocks and stabilizers to use for
>>replacement? I drive mostly highway (daily driver).
>>
>>SO - to summarize so far:
>>
>>- I'll jack up the vehicle tonight (maybe tomorrow, worst case
>>Saturday...) and look at wear and play where there shouldn't be such.
>>Especially track bar and stabilizer shock... I'm scheduling the dealer
>>for next week.
>>
>>- I'll find replacement shocks and stabilizer shock, and get wheels
>>balanced and alignment checked, while having the dealer check for any
>>specific problem just for laughs, while he replaces the fan switch or
>>fan switch relay under warrantee...
>>
>>- I'll check if the wheel balance and alignment changed or eliminated
>>the problem - I'll still plan on replacing the shocks and stabilizer
>>soon in any case, but sooner if the problem persists.
>>
>>- I'll post what the dealer finds, and the results of fixing just the
>>balance and alignment at this point, then follow up with the result of
>>changing the shocks and stabilizers.
>>
>>That's what I see so far.
>>--doug
>>
>
>
>

--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL N6TAY
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

tires are out of round you need new ones!



> wrote in message
oups.com...
> OK - the vehicle is a 2004 TJ Sport, 4 wheel discs, limited slip Dana
> 44 Rear, aluminum wheels. 30,100 miles, I've had it since new. Great
> car in every way. I don't offroad it yet, I just drive it in snow and
> adverse weather conditions.
>
> Recently, though, if I drive along and hit a particular type of bump,
> usually a manhole cover sunk down into the asphault, and with one
> wheel, usually the driver's side front, a wobble starts in that wheel,
> travels up the steering column and into the steering wheel and won't
> let go until it either dies out on its own, or maybe I change the
> position of the steering wheel and it damps out, or I brake and slow
> down. It persists for 2 to 6 seconds, and is quite startling. Not
> something the vehicle has done in the past, ever. It does seem to be
> getting worse over the last three weeks. It does not do it at all much
> of the time.
>
> A quick look under doesn't show anything obviously loose or leaking,
> and pulling at the tire and wheels and steering while they are on the
> ground doesn't seem to show any obvious play.
>
> The car is under extended warranty.
>
> My questions a
>
> (1) This sure sounds an awful lot like the usual death wobble, but at
> 30,000 miles? Is this normal Jeep steering behavior for this mileage?
> I've done regular maintenance at the hard use interval, including
> lubing the front suspension and steering every 4000 miles, so it
> shouldn't be neglect... The tires are due for balance and rotate, and
> I've never had it aligned. But it's driven on-road.
>
> (2)Any suggestions on what to look at and wiggle and test to locate
> where the problem is and what to replace? I'd like if possible to be
> able to pinpoint enough of a problem to get a dealer to actually fix
> it, if possible. I'm thinking it has to be the stabilizer shock, I'm
> thinking get the wheels off the ground and move them, looking for play
> in the tie rod ends and for resistance in the stabilizer shock. Any
> specifics on what to look at to pinpoint the error would be much
> appreciated.
>
> This news group, by the way has been fantastic to read over the last
> year and a half. I've learned a tremendous amount - like my fan switch
> stopped working at low, and I don't need to mention that as an issue
> because I already know that they burn out regularly in one setting...
> That'll be fixed on this trip in as well.
>

Jerry -

Much thanks. I am so glad to hear there is a specific cause and cure.
I'll check the trackbar tonight.

I took the Jeep to my (non-dealership) mechanic to have the tires
rotated and balanced. What this did was change the wobble
significantly - instead of starting from the driver's side wheel and
proceeding through the top (feels like the top anyway) of the front
suspension, that same kind of bump doesn't do anything. Instead, now a
more shallow ridge-type bump hitting both wheels starts the oscillation
and it remains in the bottom of the suspension evenly distributed
between both wheels. Unfortunately this never damps out and requires
slowing alot before it stops.

But it changed. Next is to check the trackbar bolt, tighten as
necessary, check the rest of the front end for anything unusual while
it is up off the ground, then back to the mechanic tomorrow morning to
insist on perfect balance on the front tires and to have the alignment
checked.

I'll keep updating as this goes. Appreciate the feedback.
--doug

> So I switched to a street tire (BFG radial long trail T/A)and have
> never had a problem since, the car runs so smooth that its hard to
> believe your actually in a Jeep.

Sounds like tires could be one of the causes. That would be a shame,
the Goodyear MTRs still look very good on the car. I'll keep this in
mind if I can't get the balance correct or if I find the tire is out of
round as another poster suggested.

I am so hoping that tightening the trackbar will stop this.
--doug