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endplay problem



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 15th 05, 01:15 AM
Robert Rutler
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Default endplay problem

Hi guys, I need some help.

1973 standard Beatle 1600 dual port

My son and I are having a very frustrating time with his bug. We took the
engine out to replace the main seal because it was leaking. We had a very
difficult time removing the flywheel. Whale trying to get that nut off we
ruined the crank pulley, because we were trying to keep the crank from
turning as we worked on the gland nut. We couldn't get the pully off ether.
We had to cut it off. We purchased another pulley and an impact wrench. The
wrench took that nut off licitly split. Now we are trying to fix a major
endplay problem.

We have installed the new pulley (though it wont seat completely flush with
the crank shaft, possibly a source of the problem) It is on so tight I think
we would ruin this new pulley if we tried to pull it off.

When we go to the flywheel and check the end play, we get a reading of .067.
That is a lot of slop!. It takes 5 spacers to make up that difference When
we install the spacers and seals, then put the flywheel back on, the crank
will turn only a couple of degrees. Something is jamming the crank from
turning ether clockwise or counterclockwise.

this engine ran before we tried to get to that main seal. Now it wont even
turn.(though if the flywheel is removed the crank turns normaly) The spacers
that were in there before were three and added up to .025.

What is happening and how do we get this thing back together properly?

Thanks for your help.

Robert


Ads
  #2  
Old March 15th 05, 04:30 AM
Remco
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I am a total newbie at bugs so don't take the following as gospel --
lacking the true bug experience I go with what I read and am told so am
just passing that along.

Did you see that large endplay before you stripped the flywheel off?
I stripped my engine down for the same reason very recently. Found oil
all over the clutch and my endplay could measure with a yard stick so
didn't bother fudging it with spacers
Since my main bearing seat is beat out, I need a new case.

In checking what was up with my engine, I do remember that max endplay
is 0.006 and that you should not have more than 3 spacers. Also many
mention that one should replace your gland nut to make sure it all
reseats properly.
I was tempted to use an impact wrench but was afraid to damage
something -- it should come off with a steel bar mounted to the holes
on the flywheel. I had to hang on my 5 foot cheater bar, supporting the
steel bar on a saw horse so that the engine wouldn't tip. It finally
made a gawdawful 'queeek' noise before it gave in and came loose. (256
ft/lbs my foot!)

I am sure others here can steer you in the right direction. My
babbling, if anything, keeps your message on top of the heap so many
get to read about your problem

Remco

  #3  
Old March 15th 05, 06:26 AM
ThaDriver
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Two things come to mind. 1) The front main bearing (behind the flywheel)
can wear out the case in a manner that will look like endplay but it is
bearing slop (back & forth). 2) Sometimes there is an interference problem
with the crank. If someone built this engine & didn't check that, it could
be the problem. Check it by rotating the crank without the flywheel, in
the direction that forces it towards the front (flywheel side) of the
engine. If it hits something & moves rearward then that is the problem.~
Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Easy on the Giggle Cream!


  #4  
Old March 15th 05, 07:19 AM
Robert Rutler
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Remco, Thanks for your reply.



We also hung off of that bar and beat that bar with a sledge whale hanging
off of it, and anything else we could think of. Our bar was over 6 foot
long. We bent several pipes trying to get that blasted nut off. That is what
destroyed the pulley trying to keep the engine from turning whale we
stressed that 220lb gland nut (right 220 my foot). We didn't check the end
play before removing the flywheel or cutting off the destroyed pulley, so I
don't know what it was prior. I just know the engine ran normally. Now it
wont turn at all when the flywheel is on (except for about 5 degrees), but
will when the flywheel is off. Something internally is preventing it from
turning freely. I have never been inside to be able to figure out what is
happening.



I worry that the pulley is not seating properly and therefore the crank is
out of its proper place and therefore something internally is hanging up.
(lifters?) I don't know. If anyone has experience with this please let us
know.



Thanks.



Robert




  #5  
Old March 15th 05, 10:05 AM
ThaDriver
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The pulley dosen't have anything to do with it. The endplay is set by
setting it at the flywheel end (as you know), & it is simply the clearence
between the flywheel, ft. main bearing, & the crank (the crank has a flange
behind the bearing).
However, if the bearing has play in the case, you cannot remove it with
shims; too many shims will only lock up the crank against the bearing.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Easy on the Giggle Cream!


  #6  
Old March 15th 05, 02:38 PM
Remco
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Ok, that must be the reason why they suggest only using three spacers.
I only knew that there was a max quantity, not the reason.Thanks for
explaining that, Paul. Btw, is there a minimum quantity as well?

What you described in your previous post happened to me: the seat of
the main bearing had machined itself out along the axis of the crank.
The actualy bearing looks ok, strangely enough. Before I had the engine
apart, I actually thought there were four spacers on the shaft, because
I could move the main bearing that much. (I was only half kidding
saying I could measure the slop with a yard stick)
It was so bad that the flywheel was allowed to touch the case and had
actually worn a groove in it.
Robert, if you want me to send you a picture to clarify it, let me
know.

Remco

  #7  
Old March 15th 05, 03:16 PM
Jan
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"Robert Rutler" > wrote in message >...
> Remco, Thanks for your reply.
>
>
>
> We also hung off of that bar and beat that bar with a sledge whale hanging
> off of it, and anything else we could think of. Our bar was over 6 foot
> long. We bent several pipes trying to get that blasted nut off. That is what
> destroyed the pulley trying to keep the engine from turning whale we
> stressed that 220lb gland nut (right 220 my foot). We didn't check the end
> play before removing the flywheel or cutting off the destroyed pulley, so I
> don't know what it was prior. I just know the engine ran normally. Now it
> wont turn at all when the flywheel is on (except for about 5 degrees), but
> will when the flywheel is off. Something internally is preventing it from
> turning freely. I have never been inside to be able to figure out what is
> happening.
>
>
>
> I worry that the pulley is not seating properly and therefore the crank is
> out of its proper place and therefore something internally is hanging up.
> (lifters?) I don't know. If anyone has experience with this please let us
> know.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Robert




the pulley is not your problem, it has nothing at all to do with
endplay. Also, the pulley is not supposed to sit flush with the crank,
but rather it "won't go in all the way". The crank end sits recessed
in the pulley hole.

Lifters can not be the culprit either. They don't have enough room to
come out of their bores far enough to cause trouble (remembering you
said the engine ran before).

With the flywheel removed, there should be tons and tons of fore... I
mean endplay. <grin>

Try to move the crank in and out, and see if the big bearing moves
with it. Like someone already said, the bearing could have endplay in
itself, and there's no way for you to eliminate that by adding shims.
Using too many shims woudl lock teh flywheel to the bearing thrust
face, and the "degree or two" of movement is actually teh bearing
trying to turn in the saddle. It can't move though, because there's a
ratainer pin that's holding it in place. DO NOT APPLY FORCE to it like
this!! You will elongate the hole on teh bearing where the pin goes,
and as a result you might get nasty vibration and accelerated wear as
the engine runs. Of course, this may have happened already, since you
reported having that couple of degrees of movement there with a stack
of 5 shims. This would very well explain the bearing end play - it was
able to move and vibrate enough to wear more room for itself. Rubbing
against teh hard case material ate away some of the bearing metal.

Now, normally you would be told that the only way to fix this is to
tear teh engine apart and replace the bearing with new, and the case
would probably also require line-boring. However.. there's a redneck
trick available for extending engine life just enough to allow you to
save up for the big repair, and get you back on teh road for a good
while. It's a redneck hammer-mechanic trick but it works.. in a pinch,
as a temporary solution:

You push teh crank all the way IN from the pulley end, and support the
puley or pulley bolt against a wall or rest the engine on it's nose,
pulley against the floor. You can use a solid metal object of some
kind as an extension between the wall or floor and the pulley. The
idea is to apply continuous force to it, pushing it in, that WON'T
budge.

You then (flywheel removed) take a flat end punch and a heavy hammer,
and "peen" or punch the bearing thrust surface inwards, sort of
"crushing" it against the bearing saddle, from 6 to 8 spots. You get 6
to 8 indentations on the thrust face that will eliminate the BEARING
end play almost completely, (because the crank is pushing the bearing
outwards too and the wall or floor on the opposite end of the crank
won't allow it to back out as you hit the bearing...) and if you kept
the punch distances even, the distortion of the bearing thrust face
would also be even... still offering relatively smooth and straight
surface for the flywheel (shims) to lean against. Now you can shim it
up to spec again using the recommended 3 shims. Coat the shims with
clean motor oil before assembly and wipe off the excess. Run a fine
grit wet sandpaper or emery cloth over the radiused sealing surface of
the flywheel to remove imperfections and caked on dirt.. and coat it
with vaseline. Then mount the flywheel according to instructions,
preferrably with a new seal, which is what got you in this predicament
to begin with


Remember that this trick is to be used only as a temporary fix, in an
emergency... such as "I'm broke and I need the car back on the road
tomorrow".

You STILL need to worry about the elongated bearing retainer pin hole,
the CAUSE of the problem has not gone away. It will continue eating
away both the case and the bearing itself, at an exponentially
accelerating rate. Worst case scenario: the pin will slip out of
position, get wedged between saddle and bearing, possibly in the
elongated hole it dug earlier, and the bearing will start spinning
with the crank. it will soon **** itself royally, rendering the crank
and the case pretty much useless, beyond repair. Depending on bearing
type, (there's bearings with oil grooves cut in the back, and solid
back bearings with just an oil hole) the oil holes that deliver oil
between the crank and the bearing will no longer line up, and the
crank will self destruct in a matter of seconds due to oil starvation.
All it takes is A COUPLE OF DEGREES of mis-alignment in the direction
of rotation


Hope this helps.

Jan
  #8  
Old March 15th 05, 03:42 PM
Robert Rutler
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Default

Yes, I would like any photos you may have. especily of anything inside the
engine you may have. that bearing wearing itsself out along the axis of the
crank. I suppose that is what is wrong here. There is a lot of endplay. Is
that front main bearing exposed when the flywheel and the spacers are
removed?

Thank you Paul for letting me know about the flange on the crank against the
bearing in the rear, that the pully seats against. That advice perhaps has
saved me several hours of struggling by moving my diagnostics away from that
issue back to the front end. I sure think something internaly is hanging up.
When that flywheel is removed everything seems to turn normaly. I will try
forcing the cam forward whall turning it like you sugguest and see if it
hangs today. If that happens how do I fix it. tear the entrie moter down?
boy I dont want to have to do that. We just wanted to stop the leak. this
has turned into a big mess.

Remco, (a personal note. My Grandpa started a business years ago named Remco
Hydrolics in a small town in Northern California the letters stood for all
the partners first initials of their first name Robert, Ed, Max, Charles,
and odballs I like your handle.


  #9  
Old March 15th 05, 04:07 PM
John Connolly
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Posts: n/a
Default

due to overheating, or excessive endplay, or BOTH, the flywheel main bearing
is loose in the case.

You are having to tighten it up with excess flywheel shims and when you do
this it pulls the crank away from it's normal location, and the crank cheeks
are hitting the case.

You need a new case Robert. It's shot.

John
Aircooled.Net Inc.

"Robert Rutler" > wrote in message
...
> Hi guys, I need some help.
>
> 1973 standard Beatle 1600 dual port
>
> My son and I are having a very frustrating time with his bug. We took the
> engine out to replace the main seal because it was leaking. We had a very
> difficult time removing the flywheel. Whale trying to get that nut off we
> ruined the crank pulley, because we were trying to keep the crank from
> turning as we worked on the gland nut. We couldn't get the pully off

ether.
> We had to cut it off. We purchased another pulley and an impact wrench.

The
> wrench took that nut off licitly split. Now we are trying to fix a major
> endplay problem.
>
> We have installed the new pulley (though it wont seat completely flush

with
> the crank shaft, possibly a source of the problem) It is on so tight I

think
> we would ruin this new pulley if we tried to pull it off.
>
> When we go to the flywheel and check the end play, we get a reading of

..067.
> That is a lot of slop!. It takes 5 spacers to make up that difference When
> we install the spacers and seals, then put the flywheel back on, the crank
> will turn only a couple of degrees. Something is jamming the crank from
> turning ether clockwise or counterclockwise.
>
> this engine ran before we tried to get to that main seal. Now it wont even
> turn.(though if the flywheel is removed the crank turns normaly) The

spacers
> that were in there before were three and added up to .025.
>
> What is happening and how do we get this thing back together properly?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Robert
>
>



  #10  
Old March 15th 05, 04:13 PM
TerryB
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Posts: n/a
Default


> tomorrow".
>
> You STILL need to worry about the elongated bearing retainer pin hole,
> the CAUSE of the problem has not gone away. It will continue eating
> away both the case and the bearing itself, at an exponentially
> accelerating rate. Worst case scenario: the pin will slip out of
> position, get wedged between saddle and bearing, possibly in the
> elongated hole it dug earlier, and the bearing will start spinning
> with the crank. it will soon **** itself royally, rendering the crank
> and the case pretty much useless, beyond repair. Depending on bearing
> type, (there's bearings with oil grooves cut in the back, and solid
> back bearings with just an oil hole) the oil holes that deliver oil
> between the crank and the bearing will no longer line up, and the
> crank will self destruct in a matter of seconds due to oil starvation.
> All it takes is A COUPLE OF DEGREES of mis-alignment in the direction
> of rotation
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jan
>


I wish you would learn not to sugar coat things so much. LOL

--
Terry B
AKA VDUBBS
Buggin in Bama
http://vdubbs64.tripod.com
 




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