U-Haul's practices raise the risk of accidents on the road

On Jun 26, 9:59 am, Scott en Aztlán > wrote:
> Brontide > said in rec.autos.driving:
>
> >While speeding may be as common as the smog it does not mean we are
> >entitled to flaunt the law.
>
> ITYM *flout* the law.
> --
> MFFYCam Videos Galohttp://www.geocities.com/mffycam/

/me shoots typist

Yes, flout.

-Eric

Brontide wrote:
....
> Am I the only one a little dismayed at this line of thinking... are we
> entitled to speed? ( I know a few limited places are 70, but the rest
> top out at 65 or 55 )
....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_l..._United_States

According to their map, over half the United States have speed
limits of 75 mph on the highways. Most of the rest has 70 mph.
65 mph and less is limited to a handful of states and within
cities.

Anthony
--
"I can't drive 55" Sammy Hagar

On Jun 26, 11:27 am, Anthony Matonak
> wrote:
> Brontide wrote:
>
> ...> Am I the only one a little dismayed at this line of thinking... are we
> > entitled to speed? ( I know a few limited places are 70, but the rest
> > top out at 65 or 55 )
>
> ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_l..._United_States
>
> According to their map, over half the United States have speed
> limits of 75 mph on the highways. Most of the rest has 70 mph.
> 65 mph and less is limited to a handful of states and within
> cities.
>
> Anthony
> --
> "I can't drive 55" Sammy Hagar

That map is only accurate for cars, not trucks or nighttime speed
differentials. Speed limits are always that, limits, people should
drive slower then them during inclement weather and when the situation
is appropriate ( like someone driving a rental 24' truck ).

-Eric

On Jun 26, 11:50 am, Brontide > wrote:
> On Jun 26, 11:27 am, Anthony Matonak
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Brontide wrote:
>
> > ...> Am I the only one a little dismayed at this line of thinking... are we
> > > entitled to speed? ( I know a few limited places are 70, but the rest
> > > top out at 65 or 55 )
>
> > ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_l..._United_States
>
> > According to their map, over half the United States have speed
> > limits of 75 mph on the highways. Most of the rest has 70 mph.
> > 65 mph and less is limited to a handful of states and within
> > cities.
>
> > Anthony
> > --
> > "I can't drive 55" Sammy Hagar
>
> That map is only accurate for cars, not trucks or nighttime speed
> differentials. Speed limits are always that, limits, people should
> drive slower then them during inclement weather and when the situation
> is appropriate ( like someone driving a rental 24' truck ).
>
> -Eric

Even assuming a 70 MPH speed limit means that the majority of traffic
is *only* traveling at 70 MPH (IME, the flow of traffic is nearly
always above the speed limit, outside of times of heavy congestion or
inclement weather) driving at 45 MPH is in and of itself not a good
idea. Therefore, by that reasoning, driving a vehicle/trailer
combination that is only safe at or below 45 MPH is quite simply
unsafe. Perhaps if we were a nation with German road laws and German
driver training things would be different, but the truth is that with
the **** poor drivers that are really out there a 25 MPH speed
differential is downright scary - and what happens when you're in an
area where the flow speed is significantly greater than 45 MPH?

All that said - U-Haul seems to have no problem renting trucks and
trailers to people knowing that their pickup and dropoff points are
hundreds or even thousands of miles apart - surely they can't expect
that people will avoid Interstate highways for the entire trip?

This whole thread seems to be to be one big reminder why I hate
dealing with rental equipment for anything more than moving something
across town.

nate

On Jun 24, 2:52 pm, wrote:
> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...-na-haul24jun2...
>
> >From the Los Angeles Times
>
> DANGER IN TOW
> Driving with rented risks
> U-Haul International is the nation's largest provider of rental
> trailers. A Times investigation finds the company's practices raise
> the risk of accidents on the road.
> By Alan C. Miller and Myron Levin, Times Staff Writers
> June 24, 2007
>
> Marissa Sternberg sits in her wheelchair, barely able to move or
> speak. Caregivers are always at her side. Progress is measured in tiny
> steps: an unclenched fist, a look of recognition, a smile for her
> father.
>
> Nearly four years ago, Sternberg was a high-spirited 19-year-old bound
> for veterinary school in Denver. She rented a U-Haul trailer to move
> her belongings, hitched it to her Toyota Land Cruiser and hit the road
> with her two dogs and a friend.
>
> That evening, as the Land Cruiser descended a hill in the Chihuahuan
> Desert of New Mexico, the trailer began to swing from side to side,
> pushing the SUV as if trying to muscle it off the road.
>
> "I knew something bad was going to happen," recalled Corina Maya
> Hollander, who was taking a turn behind the wheel. "We both knew."
>
> The Land Cruiser flipped and bounced along Interstate 25. The trailer
> broke free and careened off the road. Hollander crawled from the
> wreckage, her head throbbing.
>
> Sternberg, who had been thrown from the SUV, lay sprawled on the
> highway, unable to move.
>
> "Where are my dogs?" she screamed. "Somebody go find my dogs!"
>
> Sternberg fell victim to a peril long familiar to U-Haul
> International: "trailer sway," a leading cause of severe towing
> accidents.
>
> Traveling downhill or shaken by a sharp turn or a gust of wind, a
> trailer can begin swinging so violently that only the most experienced
> - or fortunate - drivers can regain control and avoid catastrophe.
>
> U-Haul, the nation's largest provider of rental trailers, says it is
> "highly conservative" about safety. But a yearlong Times
> investigation, which included more than 200 interviews and a review of
> thousands of pages of court records, police reports, consumer
> complaints and other documents, found that company practices have
> heightened the risk of towing accidents.
>
> The safest way to tow is with a vehicle that weighs much more than the
> trailer. A leading trailer expert and U-Haul consultant has likened
> this principle to "motherhood and apple pie."
>
> Yet U-Haul allows customers to pull trailers as heavy as or heavier
> than their own vehicles.
>
> It often allows trailers to stay on the road for months without a
> thorough safety inspection, in violation of its own policies.
>
> Bad brakes have been a recurring problem with its large trailers. The
> one Sternberg rented lacked working brakes.
>
> Its midsize trailers have no brakes at all, a policy that conflicts
> with the laws of at least 14 states.
>
> It relaxed a key safety rule as it pushed to increase rentals of one
> type of trailer, used to haul vehicles, and then failed to enforce
> even the weakened standard. Customers were killed or maimed in ensuing
> crashes that might have been avoided.
>
> The company's approach to mitigating the risks of towing relies
> heavily on customers, many of them novices, some as young as 18. They
> are expected to grasp and carry out detailed instructions for loading
> and towing trailers, and to respond coolly in a crisis.
>
> But many renters never see those instructions - distribution of U-
> Haul's user guide is spotty.
>
> To those who receive and read it, the guide offers this advice for
> coping with a swinging trailer: Stay off the car's brakes and hold the
> wheel straight. Many drivers will reflexively do the opposite, which
> can make the swaying worse.
>
> Yet when accidents occur, U-Haul almost always blames the customer.
>
> Proper loading of the trailer is crucial in preventing sway. U-Haul
> tells customers to put 60% of the weight in the front half and
> suggests a three-step process to check that the load is balanced
> correctly.
>
> But the company has declined to offer an inexpensive, portable scale
> that would help renters get it right.
>
> U-Haul vigorously defends its safety record. Executives say that the
> company diligently maintains its fleet of more than 200,000 trucks and
> trailers, and that decades of testing, experience and engineering
> advances have steadily reduced its accident rates.
>
> "Our equipment is suited for your son and daughter," said Edward J.
> "Joe" Shoen, chairman of U-Haul and its parent company, Amerco. "On a
> scale of 1 to 10, I'd say U-Haul is rated 10 in safety."
>
> It is unknown how many U-Haul customers have crashed because of
> trailer sway. No government agency keeps track of such accidents, and
> U-Haul declined to provide a comprehensive count or year-by-year
> figures.
>
> But statistical snapshots the company has produced in civil litigation
> hint at the scope of the problem and show that it has persisted for
> decades.
>
> In a lawsuit stemming from the Sternberg crash, U-Haul listed 173
> reported sway-related accidents from 1993 to 2003 involving a single
> trailer model.
>
> In a case from the 1970s, the company disclosed 1,173 such crashes
> involving all trailer types during a 3 1/2-year period.
>
> In other cases, it has listed up to 650 reported sway-related wrecks
> from about 1990 to 2002 involving two-wheeled trailers called tow
> dollies.
>
> Still, U-Haul says statistics indicate that drivers towing its
> trailers are less likely to crash than are other motorists. This is
> so, U-Haul says, because people drive more cautiously when moving
> their families and belongings.
>
> The claim has not been independently verified and is viewed
> skeptically by some outside experts.
>
> Shoen said sway-related accidents almost always result from customer
> mistakes, primarily failing to load the trailer properly and exceeding
> U-Haul's recommended top speed of 45 mph. The company said both errors
> contributed to the Sternberg crash.
>
> "U-Haul customers drive the equivalent of to the moon and back over 10
> times a day," Shoen said in a recent conference call with investors,
> "and, regrettably, accidents occur."
>
> TRAILER SWAY
>
> U-haul international inc., founded in 1945, is the leader of the do-it-
> yourself moving industry. It sends millions of Americans out on the
> road annually in its signature orange-and-white trucks and trailers.
>
> The Phoenix-based company, built on low cost and convenience, has
> about 1,450 company-owned centers and 14,500 independent dealers. It
> took in about $1.5 billion from equipment rentals last year.
>
> Many U-Haul customers are college students, weekend movers and others
> who have never hauled a trailer before.
>
> It is not unusual for a trailer to swing slightly. This normally poses
> little or no threat.
>
> Accidents often happen when a driver gains speed going downhill. The
> trailer whips from side to side more and more powerfully and finally
> takes control of the tow vehicle - a situation known as "the tail
> wagging the dog."
>
> Peter Keith, a Canadian safety expert, described the danger in a 1984
> report for transportation officials in British Columbia.
>
> "When the trailer suddenly starts [to] swing violently, the driver can
> often be caught unawares and is further faced with a very dangerous
> situation which requires considerable skill and presence of mind to
> resolve," Keith wrote. "Probably only a small minority of drivers are
> in practice capable of bringing the vehicle combination back under
> control."
>
> The weight of the tow vehicle relative to the trailer is a crucial
> factor. The heavier the tow vehicle, the easier it is to control the
> combination.
>
> Richard H. Klein, an authority on trailer dynamics who has served as
> an expert witness for U-Haul, underscored the point during one court
> appearance. He was asked if he'd rather be driving "a larger tow
> vehicle than a smaller one" if a trailer began to swing.
>
> "Yes," he replied. "That's like motherhood and apple pie."
>
> In keeping with this tenet, other major companies do not allow
> customers to pull rental equipment with passenger vehicles. Penske
> Truck Leasing and Budget Truck Rental compete with U-Haul in renting
> two types of tow equipment: tow dollies and auto transports.
>
> But Penske and Budget provide equipment only to customers who rent
> large trucks to pull the load. They say safety is the reason.
>
> Penske's trucks are "engineered to pull these types of loads," said
> spokesman Randolph P. Ryerson. The company has "no way to make sure
> other vehicles would have the same adequate towing capabilities," he
> said.
>
> U-Haul allows customers to tow its trailers, tow dollies and other
> equipment with passenger vehicles as well as with the company's large
> trucks. Most renters use SUVs or pickups, which have a high center of
> gravity and are prone to rollovers.
>
> Moreover, customers are permitted to pull trailers that weigh as much
> as or more than their own vehicles.
>
> Under U-Haul rules, the company's largest trailers, which are equipped
> with brakes, can outweigh the customer's vehicle by up to 25% when
> fully loaded. Smaller units, which do not have brakes, can weigh as
> much as the tow vehicle.
>
> U-Haul says extensive research at an Arizona test track and other
> sites has shown that its weight rules are safe, provided customers use
> its equipment as instructed.
>
> But the rules conflict with the safety recommendations of some auto
> manufacturers.
>
> Ford Motor Co., for example, advises owners of the 2007 Crown
> Victoria, which weighs about 4,100 pounds, to tow no more than 1,500
> pounds. Owners of the lighter Mustang are advised not to pull a
> trailer weighing more than 1,000 pounds.
>
> U-Haul will allow a Crown Victoria to tow a trailer weighing up to
> 4,400 pounds and a Mustang to pull up to 2,500 pounds.
>
> (U-Haul has banned towing with Ford Explorers since late 2003. Shoen
> said the SUV was not unsafe but had become "a magnet for attorneys.")
>
> Honda Motor Co. says its vehicles should not pull trailers that weigh
> more than 1,000 pounds unless the trailers have brakes. General Motors
> offers the same advice for many of ...
>
> read more »

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...e_uhaul_061021

U Haul trucks are literally an accident waiting to happen. There have
been numerous stories on this over the years and yet they are still in
business and their record barely improves.

I would not rent, or let a friend rent a U Haul truck.

James

Brontide wrote:
> Am I the only one a little dismayed at this line of thinking... are we
> entitled to speed? ( I know a few limited places are 70, but the rest
> top out at 65 or 55 )

Your knowledge of speed limits seems to be limited to the east coast.
Most states west of the Mississippi now allow 75; Texas allows 80.
The only exceptions are CA (70) and OR (65). For trucks, CA, OR, and
ID have lower limits in many places; the other western states do not.
Even most of the Midwest allows at least 70, including IA, IN and OH.

But yes, I do assert a "right to speed". Speed limits are one of the
major areas where traffic law has created a victimless crime (and the
very small added accident risk does not change that fact, and having
a law against something doesn't make it wrong if it wasn't already).

In article .com>,
Brontide > wrote:

> Am I the only one a little dismayed at this line of thinking... are we
> entitled to speed?

Prima facie traffic law (and safety) requires keeping up with the flow
of traffic. Doubles and triples passed us at high rates of speed
(probably as much 35 MPH over our speed) at all times. Usually they had
to change lanes to accomplish this. We were tailgated though usually not
by truckers, who seemed to know what was going on; we were generally a
nuisance to other drivers, if not a real hazard.

Breaking down in middle of Montana didn't help much, either (which is
where we found our oil completely empty and no fill tube cap). It broke
down again at the end of our sojourn.

I actually wouldn't have minded a governor that limited us to 75 or even
70 (less than some speed limit signs I saw on interstate 80 and far less
than the traffic flow outside urban areas).

I also would be happier if Penske had warned us about the limitation
*before* we committed to renting the vehicle so that we could have
budgeted our time better. As things stood, I actually drove 'way beyond
all legal limits on driving time just to get the truck there, unloaded
and returned to Penske so as not to be penalized.

I consider myself a mediocre driver, but I do have a lot of miles of
practice and experience, gained after many aggregate months of
qualifying training in operating numerous different kinds of transport
vehicles from large to small, including 40-foot mass transit vehicles.
IOW, while I'm not qualified to drive tractor-trailers, I'm not exactly
new at this, and I am well-acquainted with my limitations. I also
recognize *good* drivers when I see them regardless of whether they are
"speeding" or not..

> ( I know a few limited places are 70, but the rest
> top out at 65 or 55 )

Don't know where you are familiar with, but along I-80 in many
sparsely-populated areas of the west, the speed limit is effectively
non-existent since the repeal of the federal double-nickel.

> You are driving a vehicle that acts unlike most other vehicles you
> have driven, it has a mass probably 6 to 10 times greater than the
> vehicles you have driven, and by it's very nature it's a danger to
> yourself and others.

An assumption on your part here that is off the mark to understate
things.

> Their are a million little things that could go
> wrong at any moment and you really want to add a slowed reaction time
> and longer stop to the mix by speeding?

How about just going fast enough to keep up? No? You don't like that
idea?

Okay, how about fast enough to budget the travel time limits? No?

Okay, how about requiring Penske to let us *know* in advance that they
will be setting out timetable?

> While speeding may be as common as the smog it does not mean we are
> entitled to flaunt the law.

Generally speaking, I *live* in the right lane. I drive a compact with
the one-hamster motor. It is rare that I ever pass anyone. On this
hellish nightmare of a trip, however, I passed just one car. It was late
at night in the Utah desert. The highway was practically deserted except
for the Penske truck and the other car. The car I passed was
malfunctioning and I think the driver was three sheets to the wind.

But I can't be sure, as tired as I was.

In article . com>,
Brontide > wrote:

> Speed limits are always that, limits, people should
> drive slower then them during inclement weather and when the situation
> is appropriate ( like someone driving a rental 24' truck ).

True. And children should never starve, and non-combatants should never
die in war. And nobody, and I mean NOBODY should ever be allowed to
operate any vehicle with horsepower that exceeds their IQ.

Would it not be up to the renter to complain about the condition of the
rented unit?

Let's say that on Thursday night, you always go to Ali's Pizzeria.... let's
say that the pizza is always ****ty.... let's say you fail to mention it
(too many Ceasars waitng for the ****ty pizza)... is the pizza going to get
any better?

It is up to the consumer to say "this doesn't feel right". If the consumer
isn't smart enough to realize that "this doesn't feel right"... what will
happen?

Driving and towing are not things that we are born with.. these are both
learned and require the common sense to know that we have stuff to learn....

I, for one, am tired of picking up after people that either can't or refuse
to use common sense....

Like trimming posts....

"N8N" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Jun 26, 11:50 am, Brontide > wrote:
> > On Jun 26, 11:27 am, Anthony Matonak
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > Brontide wrote:
> >
> > > ...> Am I the only one a little dismayed at this line of thinking...
are we
> > > > entitled to speed? ( I know a few limited places are 70, but the
rest
> > > > top out at 65 or 55 )
> >
> > > ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_l..._United_States
> >
> > > According to their map, over half the United States have speed
> > > limits of 75 mph on the highways. Most of the rest has 70 mph.
> > > 65 mph and less is limited to a handful of states and within
> > > cities.
> >
> > > Anthony
> > > --
> > > "I can't drive 55" Sammy Hagar
> >
> > That map is only accurate for cars, not trucks or nighttime speed
> > differentials. Speed limits are always that, limits, people should
> > drive slower then them during inclement weather and when the situation
> > is appropriate ( like someone driving a rental 24' truck ).
> >
> > -Eric
>
> Even assuming a 70 MPH speed limit means that the majority of traffic
> is *only* traveling at 70 MPH (IME, the flow of traffic is nearly
> always above the speed limit, outside of times of heavy congestion or
> inclement weather) driving at 45 MPH is in and of itself not a good
> idea. Therefore, by that reasoning, driving a vehicle/trailer
> combination that is only safe at or below 45 MPH is quite simply
> unsafe. Perhaps if we were a nation with German road laws and German
> driver training things would be different, but the truth is that with
> the **** poor drivers that are really out there a 25 MPH speed
> differential is downright scary - and what happens when you're in an
> area where the flow speed is significantly greater than 45 MPH?
>
What is the posted speed limit in that area?

If it's 45mph, then just keep right, let the other faster/speeding traffic
pass left.

If the speed limit is greater than 55mph, hit the hazards and keep right
(since the flashing hazard lights indicate to oncoming traffic that the
vehicle is travelling slowly) unless otherwise forced to turn out by law to
accommodate faster traffic that absolutely cannot pass in lanes to the left
(e.g., only one lane in each direction). As far as I am aware, this is not
illegal driving.

Many big rig trucks that do 35 to 40mph up grades on interstate highways
posted at 65 or 70mph also use their hazards, and most of them do keep in
the rightmost lane.

Here in the state of CA, the speed limit on many of the interstates and
highways without traffic signals (aka "freeways") is also signed as a
maximum of 55mph for any vehicle with a trailer or towing another vehicle,
so 45mph would only be 10 under the posted limit, and faster traffic usually
has at least 2 or 3 lanes in the same direction to pass slower traffic on
those same roads.

Other state driving laws may vary, but I didn't bother to check the laws of
all 50 states.

(Note that I'm only addressing the posted speed limit vs. U-Haul's 45mph
limit, without even involving other issues such as the speed limit is not
posted to the 85th percentile, or anything else related to posted speed
limit dispute issues.)

[snip...]