Brakes squeal!!!!

On Sat, 28 May 2005 10:18:53 -0400, mic canic > wrote:

>did you clean and lube the caliper slides and keep the anti rattle clips in
>place?
>the rubber boot of the caliper is suppose to pull the pad away from the rotor
>ever so slightly to help cut squeal
Actually it is the internal "O" ring that pulls the piston back, not
the outer boot on most calipers.
>
>Dan wrote:
>
>> I have a '99' Intrepid. I had the rotors turned last year and they rusted
>> and then"peeled" a layer off. Not sure I understand why, I have never had
>> this happen before. Anyway, I replaced rotors on the front and installed new
>> "anti-squeal" ceramic pads. Well, they squeal at low speeds and when making
>> a right turn, the squeal is louder from the left front. I wanted the ceramic
>> pads to cut down on the dark colored dust that accumulates on the wheels.
>> Anyone have this problem that was able to make the ceramic pads work without
>> squeal?
>>
>> Thanks, Dan

thats not what chrysler taught me the oring seals the caliper

wrote:

> On Sat, 28 May 2005 10:18:53 -0400, mic canic > wrote:
>
> >did you clean and lube the caliper slides and keep the anti rattle clips in
> >place?
> >the rubber boot of the caliper is suppose to pull the pad away from the rotor
> >ever so slightly to help cut squeal
> Actually it is the internal "O" ring that pulls the piston back, not
> the outer boot on most calipers.
> >
> >Dan wrote:
> >
> >> I have a '99' Intrepid. I had the rotors turned last year and they rusted
> >> and then"peeled" a layer off. Not sure I understand why, I have never had
> >> this happen before. Anyway, I replaced rotors on the front and installed new
> >> "anti-squeal" ceramic pads. Well, they squeal at low speeds and when making
> >> a right turn, the squeal is louder from the left front. I wanted the ceramic
> >> pads to cut down on the dark colored dust that accumulates on the wheels.
> >> Anyone have this problem that was able to make the ceramic pads work without
> >> squeal?
> >>
> >> Thanks, Dan

On Sun, 29 May 2005 07:55:13 -0400, mic canic > wrote:

> thats not what chrysler taught me the oring seals the caliper

Yes, the "O" ring seals the caliper, but it also "bends" a but as the
piston slides though - and when the pressure is released, the "O" ring
straightens back out, pulling the piston back in just a smidge. This
gives the clearance. Take a good look at the boot, flex it around -
then try to push the piston back with your fingers. Note how little
resistance the boot gives to being deformed - and how much force it
takes to move the piston. Absolutely no way the boot could handle
pulling the caliper back.

Your instructor at Chryaler only taught you half of the story.

I've taught it too - and I've tried to get the whole story told.
>
wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 May 2005 10:18:53 -0400, mic canic > wrote:
>>
>> >did you clean and lube the caliper slides and keep the anti rattle clips in
>> >place?
>> >the rubber boot of the caliper is suppose to pull the pad away from the rotor
>> >ever so slightly to help cut squeal
>> Actually it is the internal "O" ring that pulls the piston back, not
>> the outer boot on most calipers.
>> >
>> >Dan wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have a '99' Intrepid. I had the rotors turned last year and they rusted
>> >> and then"peeled" a layer off. Not sure I understand why, I have never had
>> >> this happen before. Anyway, I replaced rotors on the front and installed new
>> >> "anti-squeal" ceramic pads. Well, they squeal at low speeds and when making
>> >> a right turn, the squeal is louder from the left front. I wanted the ceramic
>> >> pads to cut down on the dark colored dust that accumulates on the wheels.
>> >> Anyone have this problem that was able to make the ceramic pads work without
>> >> squeal?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks, Dan

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sat, 28 May 2005, Ken Peterson wrote:
>
> > >Autozone sells "nice" Chinese rotors. Next time mail order a set of
> > >Brembo's from Tire Rack.
>
> > I second that with the nice Autozone Asian rotors. I got a pair of their
> > mid to premium rotors for my 98 Voyager and they were shrink-wrapped and
> > top quality! Cheap too... less than $25 a piece.
>
> 1) You missed the sarcasm.
>
> 2) It's nice for you that you only spent $25 apiece on rotors, but I will
> not entrust my life *OR* yours to Chinese brake parts on my car.

I've used lots of cheapo chinese rotors in my cars since I don't turn
rotors, just
throw them away if they are grooved. The only difference between the cheap
chinese
rotors and the better rotors is the quality of the steel, the chinese rotors
aren't
heat treated to the point that they will stand up to a lot of heat, thus
they are prone to
warping. Otherwise the machining quality is generally very good.

However, there is a trick to using these rotors. Chinese cheapo rotors work
fine
if you learn how to brake properly. And braking properly means driving
properly.
That means when you see a stoplight up ahead, you let off on the gas and
coast to
the stop, only braking gently near the end. You don't floor it until you
get within
100 feet of the stoplight and then slam on the brakes. Another thing you
don't do
that I see people doing all the time is drive around with their brakes on
practically all
the time. I see this on the freeway every day. People nose up to the car
in front of
them until they are tailgating on his ass then he slows down a little bit
and they
have to brake. Whereas I let a good 3-4 seconds of distance from the car in
front of me, and if he brakes quite often I simply let up on the gas and
have plenty
of space to coast down until I'm matching his speed again.

The harder and longer you brake the more kinetic energy is dumped into the
brakes
and the hotter and hotter they get. And also the more fuel you waste.
Since the
average American driver doesen't appear to understand this, no wonder so
many of
them complain about warped rotors.

Ted

Dan wrote:
> All:
>
> It turned out to be the shield rubbing the inside of the rotor. Bent it out
> a little and the squeals are gone. did both front shields. As for the other
> questions, yes, I did replace the expander (anti rattle) clips, yes, I did
> re-lube the caliper pins, yes, I did put anti-squeal grease on them. The
> only thing that resolved it was bending out the shield.
>
> Thanks to ALL who gave me ideas to look at.
> Dan

Glad you got it fixed!

BTW - the things that are being called "anti-rattle" clips (I think
that's a misnomer) are one of two types. One type is just a wear
surface between the pads and the rub points on the steering knuckle.
There is also a differenet type that is actually a pad spreader - keeps
a little spring force outward on the pads that helps retract them away
from the rotor. You can use either type, but only one type at a time.
The second type, though shown in the FSM, were not available from DC
until a few months ago - if you ordered them, what you got were the wear
bars. I'm glad they made the retractors avaialable - they are bound to
help in rotor wear and heat (warp).

So which type did you put on? To see photos, look at my third post (the
one with the photos) in this thread on the 300M Club forums:
http://300mclub.100megs42.com/forums...asc&star t=30
The first two photos are of the pad retractors; the second two photos
are of the wear bars.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

Bill, I did install new Retractor Clips. I got them at my local Dodge shop.
They sell them 4 in a pack. Interesting though, it appears that they are
only used on the front, the rear did not have them.
Again, thanks for your help.
Dan

"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...
> Dan wrote:
>> All:
>>
>> It turned out to be the shield rubbing the inside of the rotor. Bent it
>> out
>> a little and the squeals are gone. did both front shields. As for the
>> other
>> questions, yes, I did replace the expander (anti rattle) clips, yes, I
>> did
>> re-lube the caliper pins, yes, I did put anti-squeal grease on them. The
>> only thing that resolved it was bending out the shield.
>>
>> Thanks to ALL who gave me ideas to look at.
>> Dan
>
> Glad you got it fixed!
>
> BTW - the things that are being called "anti-rattle" clips (I think that's
> a misnomer) are one of two types. One type is just a wear surface between
> the pads and the rub points on the steering knuckle. There is also a
> differenet type that is actually a pad spreader - keeps a little spring
> force outward on the pads that helps retract them away from the rotor.
> You can use either type, but only one type at a time. The second type,
> though shown in the FSM, were not available from DC until a few months
> ago - if you ordered them, what you got were the wear bars. I'm glad they
> made the retractors avaialable - they are bound to help in rotor wear and
> heat (warp).
>
> So which type did you put on? To see photos, look at my third post (the
> one with the photos) in this thread on the 300M Club forums:
> http://300mclub.100megs42.com/forums...asc&star t=30
> The first two photos are of the pad retractors; the second two photos are
> of the wear bars.
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> adddress with the letter 'x')

Dan wrote:

> Bill, I did install new Retractor Clips. I got them at my local Dodge shop.
> They sell them 4 in a pack. Interesting though, it appears that they are
> only used on the front, the rear did not have them.
> Again, thanks for your help.
> Dan

Very good. There never were any for the rears.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

> Also, if you look back just a few years, GM used exclusively Delco
> Moraine - which was a wholly owned GM subsidiary.Chrysler used almost
> exclusively their own manufacture, with a good mix of Kelsey Hayes
> thrown in in later years.

To my knowledge (and its fairly good...) Chrysler hasn't used a brake
system "of their own manufacture" since AT LEAST 1965, and I'm guessing
more like 1955. It as far as disk brakes go, been 99% K-H since 65, with
a few odd Bendix applications (4-piston front calipers on '67-69
B-bodies and some A-bodies) and Budd (~66 C-bodies and a few others)
over that time.

AMC used Delco Moraine, Bendix, and
> Bendix/Budd hybrids (bendix calipers and Budd rotors)
> And any mechanic who lived through the eighties in North America KNOWS
> Chrysler's reputation at the time for squealing brakes - whether you
> worked for a Chrysler dealer or not.

Bullfeathers. GMs squealed just as much as Chryslers ever did, if not
more. Seems like every GM A-body that drove by me in the 80s (Regals,
Cutlasses, MonteCarlos" were squeaking away.

"cavedweller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
> > n.umich.edu...
> > > On Sat, 28 May 2005, Ken Peterson wrote:
> > >
> > > > >Autozone sells "nice" Chinese rotors. Next time mail order
> a set of
> > > > >Brembo's from Tire Rack.
> > >
> > > > I second that with the nice Autozone Asian rotors. I got a
> pair of their
> > > > mid to premium rotors for my 98 Voyager and they were
> shrink-wrapped and
> > > > top quality! Cheap too... less than $25 a piece.
> > >
> > > 1) You missed the sarcasm.
> > >
> > > 2) It's nice for you that you only spent $25 apiece on rotors,
> but I will
> > > not entrust my life *OR* yours to Chinese brake parts on my
> car.
> >
> > I've used lots of cheapo chinese rotors in my cars since I don't
> turn
> > rotors, just
> > throw them away if they are grooved. The only difference
> between the cheap
> > chinese
> > rotors and the better rotors is the quality of the steel, the
> chinese rotors
> > aren't
> > heat treated to the point that they will stand up to a lot of
> heat, thus
> > they are prone to
> > warping. Otherwise the machining quality is generally very
> good.
> >
> > However, there is a trick to using these rotors. Chinese cheapo
> rotors work
> > fine
> > if you learn how to brake properly. And braking properly means
> driving
> > properly.
> > That means when you see a stoplight up ahead, you let off on the
> gas and
> > coast to
> > the stop, only braking gently near the end. You don't floor it
> until you
> > get within
> > 100 feet of the stoplight and then slam on the brakes. Another
> thing you
> > don't do
> > that I see people doing all the time is drive around with their
> brakes on
> > practically all
> > the time. I see this on the freeway every day. People nose up
> to the car
> > in front of
> > them until they are tailgating on his ass then he slows down a
> little bit
> > and they
> > have to brake. Whereas I let a good 3-4 seconds of distance
> from the car in
> > front of me, and if he brakes quite often I simply let up on the
> gas and
> > have plenty
> > of space to coast down until I'm matching his speed again.
> >
> > The harder and longer you brake the more kinetic energy is
> dumped into the
> > brakes
> > and the hotter and hotter they get. And also the more fuel you
> waste.
> > Since the
> > average American driver doesen't appear to understand this, no
> wonder so
> > many of
> > them complain about warped rotors.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> >
> Too bad you spoiled an reasonable treatise with a foray into
> metallurgy. Rotors aren't made of steel.

Yes you are right, for stockers, however:

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/002-...-DMS/index.asp

> Heat treatment isn't
> done to provide heat resistance, it's done to provide enhanced
> properties....and it isn't done on rotors anyway.
>

Your right, what was I thinking! I was too caught up in the issue of not
creating the heat to begin with I'm afraid.

However, while stock rotors may not be heat treated, heat treating is
in fact, done on some rotors, see he

From:

http://www.21stcenturymusclecars.com/brakeeradi.asp

"These rotors feature increased "mass" or "weight" in the "fire path" which
is the point of pad contact, along with curved and directional vanes,
combined with balancing and heat treating, ensure EradiSpeedT rotors "
-------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Ted

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> "cavedweller" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
ngin.umich.edu...
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 28 May 2005, Ken Peterson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Autozone sells "nice" Chinese rotors. Next time mail order
>>
>>a set of
>>
>>>>>>Brembo's from Tire Rack.
>>>>
>>>>>I second that with the nice Autozone Asian rotors. I got a
>>
>>pair of their
>>
>>>>>mid to premium rotors for my 98 Voyager and they were
>>
>>shrink-wrapped and
>>
>>>>>top quality! Cheap too... less than $25 a piece.
>>>>
>>>>1) You missed the sarcasm.
>>>>
>>>>2) It's nice for you that you only spent $25 apiece on rotors,
>>
>>but I will
>>
>>>>not entrust my life *OR* yours to Chinese brake parts on my
>>
>>car.
>>
>>>I've used lots of cheapo chinese rotors in my cars since I don't
>>
>>turn
>>
>>>rotors, just
>>>throw them away if they are grooved. The only difference
>>
>>between the cheap
>>
>>>chinese
>>>rotors and the better rotors is the quality of the steel, the
>>
>>chinese rotors
>>
>>>aren't
>>>heat treated to the point that they will stand up to a lot of
>>
>>heat, thus
>>
>>>they are prone to
>>>warping. Otherwise the machining quality is generally very
>>
>>good.
>>
>>>However, there is a trick to using these rotors. Chinese cheapo
>>
>>rotors work
>>
>>>fine
>>>if you learn how to brake properly. And braking properly means
>>
>>driving
>>
>>>properly.
>>>That means when you see a stoplight up ahead, you let off on the
>>
>>gas and
>>
>>>coast to
>>>the stop, only braking gently near the end. You don't floor it
>>
>>until you
>>
>>>get within
>>>100 feet of the stoplight and then slam on the brakes. Another
>>
>>thing you
>>
>>>don't do
>>>that I see people doing all the time is drive around with their
>>
>>brakes on
>>
>>>practically all
>>>the time. I see this on the freeway every day. People nose up
>>
>>to the car
>>
>>>in front of
>>>them until they are tailgating on his ass then he slows down a
>>
>>little bit
>>
>>>and they
>>>have to brake. Whereas I let a good 3-4 seconds of distance
>>
>>from the car in
>>
>>>front of me, and if he brakes quite often I simply let up on the
>>
>>gas and
>>
>>>have plenty
>>>of space to coast down until I'm matching his speed again.
>>>
>>>The harder and longer you brake the more kinetic energy is
>>
>>dumped into the
>>
>>>brakes
>>>and the hotter and hotter they get. And also the more fuel you
>>
>>waste.
>>
>>>Since the
>>>average American driver doesen't appear to understand this, no
>>
>>wonder so
>>
>>>many of
>>>them complain about warped rotors.
>>>
>>>Ted
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Too bad you spoiled an reasonable treatise with a foray into
>>metallurgy. Rotors aren't made of steel.
>
>
> Yes you are right, for stockers, however:
>
> http://www.wilwood.com/Products/002-...-DMS/index.asp
>
>
>>Heat treatment isn't
>>done to provide heat resistance, it's done to provide enhanced
>>properties....and it isn't done on rotors anyway.
>>
>
>
> Your right, what was I thinking! I was too caught up in the issue of not
> creating the heat to begin with I'm afraid.
>
> However, while stock rotors may not be heat treated, heat treating is
> in fact, done on some rotors, see he
>
> From:
>
> http://www.21stcenturymusclecars.com/brakeeradi.asp
>
> "These rotors feature increased "mass" or "weight" in the "fire path" which
> is the point of pad contact, along with curved and directional vanes,
> combined with balancing and heat treating, ensure EradiSpeedT rotors "
> -------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
> Ted
>

I remember a couple years ago when I was toying with the idea of putting
together a "showroom stock" VW (before I figured out that I just
couldn't afford to do it right, and it would have to be my daily driver)
that cryogenically treated rotors were the, ahem, hot ticket. I'm
curious if a) anyone has any experience with them and do they live up to
the hype and b) would it be worthwhile to have a set of rotors frozen
for a regular use passenger car that has a rotor warping problem?

nate


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