Grand Caravan 93 3.3

Car died last night and I had it towed to the dealership. They diagnosed it
having an internal short in the PCM. They did get it started and but could
not guarantee for how long, they said I might hit a bump and it'll quit
again, so I'm thinking it might be a bad wire, loose connection.

Can anyone recommend an aftermarket store that sells a good, reliable
replacement PCM ? And does anyone have experience with one of these stores.
The dealer wants $685 for the job. I think I can get one cheaper and it
doesn't seem difficult to r&r. any thoughts ?

thanks,
Nick



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ncs wrote:
> Car died last night and I had it towed to the dealership. They diagnosed it
> having an internal short in the PCM. They did get it started and but could
> not guarantee for how long, they said I might hit a bump and it'll quit
> again, so I'm thinking it might be a bad wire, loose connection.
>
> Can anyone recommend an aftermarket store that sells a good, reliable
> replacement PCM ? And does anyone have experience with one of these stores.
> The dealer wants $685 for the job. I think I can get one cheaper and it
> doesn't seem difficult to r&r. any thoughts ?
>
> thanks,
> Nick

Autozone sells one for about $181. Just realize that once you buy it you
can't return it.

I'm a little sceptical that the PCM has an intermittent problem unless
they retrieved a specific code that had been stored in memory that led
them in this direction. My guess would be something else like a fuel
pump going bad, an intermittent crank sensor, etc. Of course, this is a
wild ass guess since I haven't laid eyes on the van. Take it for what
it's worth - zero :-)

I've got an update. The dealership can get a part from the junk yard and
install it for $435 plus tax. I think I can get it from an online store for
between $ 200 and $250, probably with a warranty.

Nick


"ncs" > wrote in message ...
> Car died last night and I had it towed to the dealership. They diagnosed
> it having an internal short in the PCM. They did get it started and but
> could not guarantee for how long, they said I might hit a bump and it'll
> quit again, so I'm thinking it might be a bad wire, loose connection.
>
> Can anyone recommend an aftermarket store that sells a good, reliable
> replacement PCM ? And does anyone have experience with one of these
> stores. The dealer wants $685 for the job. I think I can get one cheaper
> and it doesn't seem difficult to r&r. any thoughts ?
>
> thanks,
> Nick
>
>
>
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thanks for the feedback. I've got tons of fuel pressure. I too thought
maybe a crank sensor or cam sensor, but that's what they are telling me.
Another piece of info: I normally can do the 3 time key on and off, and get
the codes or a 12 and 55. I tried that last night after it died and no
codes, the check engine light didn't flash, no 12, no 55, nothing.
I'm wondering if it's a bad wire. How else could they get it started ?

thanks
nick

"SN" > wrote in message
news:%crSd.77108$GT.54058@okepread01...
> ncs wrote:
>> Car died last night and I had it towed to the dealership. They diagnosed
>> it having an internal short in the PCM. They did get it started and but
>> could not guarantee for how long, they said I might hit a bump and it'll
>> quit again, so I'm thinking it might be a bad wire, loose connection.
>>
>> Can anyone recommend an aftermarket store that sells a good, reliable
>> replacement PCM ? And does anyone have experience with one of these
>> stores. The dealer wants $685 for the job. I think I can get one cheaper
>> and it doesn't seem difficult to r&r. any thoughts ?
>>
>> thanks,
>> Nick
>
> Autozone sells one for about $181. Just realize that once you buy it you
> can't return it.
>
> I'm a little sceptical that the PCM has an intermittent problem unless
> they retrieved a specific code that had been stored in memory that led
> them in this direction. My guess would be something else like a fuel pump
> going bad, an intermittent crank sensor, etc. Of course, this is a wild
> ass guess since I haven't laid eyes on the van. Take it for what it's
> worth - zero :-)



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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, ncs wrote:

> I've got an update. The dealership can get a part from the junk yard
> and install it for $435 plus tax. I think I can get it from an online
> store for between $ 200 and $250, probably with a warranty.

What a damn joke.

What the dealer is calling the "PCM" is properly called the SBEC. They
almost *never* fail, and most SBEC failures involve nothing more than the
voltage regulation section -- not the primary engine control functions. An
"internal short" in the SBEC is highly unlikely, and an intermittent
"internal short" in the SBEC is even less likely. Internal faults in the
SBEC set a specific code (53) which you did not get. It is far more likely
the problem is located in the wiring that connects to the SBEC, or
elsewhere outside of the SBEC. (Why is the dealer feeding you a line of
crap and quoting you so high for the repair? Because you brought them a
12-year-old vehicle. Smarten up, quit going to the dealer.)

Nevertheless, if you feel you must change the SBEC, use www.car-part.com
(searchable used auto parts nationwide) and find an inexpensive one to
swap in. (you do not need a warranty, for this component almost never
fails). Using only basic hand tools, the swap job will take even a
modestly-skilled do-it-yourselfer all of about 20 minutes to do. Three
bolts hold the SBEC to the left fender. One bolt of the same size holds
the wire connector to the SBEC. You may need to remove components (e.g.
battery) to get to the SBEC. Once you do, the swap is simplicity itself.

But, really, I'd start over. Find a good independent mechanic who'll take
the time to diagnose it properly.

It is really sad that 36 years after the first computer-controlled engine
appeared in North America, service managers are still telling customers
"Ooooh, it's...the *COMPUTER*! (-puter! -puter! -puter!)", and customers
are still believing it.

DS

Thanks for the feedback. AllData also calls this component the PCM
(PowerTrain Control Module), but I'm not too concerned about that. I picked
up the van about an hour ago and got a chance to talk to the mechanic. The
service manager would give me gave me no info. other than the PCM has an
internal short. The mechanic was willing to talk. He took off the
connector to the PCM, and reconnected it and the car started. He thinks a
circuit board might be cracked, cold solder joint, etc. I asked if it could
be a bad wire. He said he took off the connector to check for power and
ground and everything was fine. So he 'thinks' it's the PCM. I might
replace the PCM, Autozone has one for $169.00 (how do you tell if it's Fed
+ Canada or the other ?) I might also start the van and jiggle the
connector and wires to see if it could be a bad wire or suspect connection.
The reason I take it to the dealer is that they're the experts, have all the
instruments to diagnose these problems and have a national network where
tech's can dial in and help. It cost $80.00 for their analysis and I think
it's cheaper than having a local mechanic troubleshoot by replacing parts.
Most of these mechanics don't like to spend a lot of time troubleshooting a
problem. Time is money to them. And I wouldn't feel good about having
someone spend all day, find the problem and then me say thanks, I'll do it
myself. With the $80 analysis, the dealer knows I may not have them do the
work.

thanks again for the feedback,
Nick

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, ncs wrote:
>
>> I've got an update. The dealership can get a part from the junk yard
>> and install it for $435 plus tax. I think I can get it from an online
>> store for between $ 200 and $250, probably with a warranty.
>
> What a damn joke.
>
> What the dealer is calling the "PCM" is properly called the SBEC. They
> almost *never* fail, and most SBEC failures involve nothing more than the
> voltage regulation section -- not the primary engine control functions. An
> "internal short" in the SBEC is highly unlikely, and an intermittent
> "internal short" in the SBEC is even less likely. Internal faults in the
> SBEC set a specific code (53) which you did not get. It is far more likely
> the problem is located in the wiring that connects to the SBEC, or
> elsewhere outside of the SBEC. (Why is the dealer feeding you a line of
> crap and quoting you so high for the repair? Because you brought them a
> 12-year-old vehicle. Smarten up, quit going to the dealer.)
>
> Nevertheless, if you feel you must change the SBEC, use www.car-part.com
> (searchable used auto parts nationwide) and find an inexpensive one to
> swap in. (you do not need a warranty, for this component almost never
> fails). Using only basic hand tools, the swap job will take even a
> modestly-skilled do-it-yourselfer all of about 20 minutes to do. Three
> bolts hold the SBEC to the left fender. One bolt of the same size holds
> the wire connector to the SBEC. You may need to remove components (e.g.
> battery) to get to the SBEC. Once you do, the swap is simplicity itself.
>
> But, really, I'd start over. Find a good independent mechanic who'll take
> the time to diagnose it properly.
>
> It is really sad that 36 years after the first computer-controlled engine
> appeared in North America, service managers are still telling customers
> "Ooooh, it's...the *COMPUTER*! (-puter! -puter! -puter!)", and customers
> are still believing it.
>
> DS
>
>



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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, ncs wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback. AllData also calls this component the PCM
> (PowerTrain Control Module)

"PCM" is a generic term, and it is an incorrect one. The correct generic
term for this device is ECM, Engine Control Module. Chrysler calls it an
SBEC, Single Board Engine Controller. It does not control the "powertrain"
(engine + transmission), so it is not a PCM. The TCM (Transmission Control
Module) is elsewhere in the engine compartment.


> The mechanic was willing to talk. He took off the
> connector to the PCM, and reconnected it and the car started. He thinks a
> circuit board might be cracked, cold solder joint, etc. I asked if it could
> be a bad wire. He said he took off the connector to check for power and
> ground and everything was fine.

His test doesn't tell us it's a cracked board(?! Not unless the van was
hit hard...that board is fully encapsulated!) or cold solder joint. It
*could* be a cold solder joint, but if it restarted after removal and
replacement of the connector, it was much more likely simply a dirty or
corroded pin or connector socket.

> So he 'thinks' it's the PCM.

I "think" he's probably wrong.

> I might replace the PCM, Autozone has one for $169.00

Waste of money. I see *lots* of them, tested working, for $50 and under on
car-part.com (search 1993 Dodge Caravan, Computer Box - Engine).

> (how do you tell if it's Fed + Canada or the other ?)

Look at the underhood Vehicle Emission Control Information label. If it
says "This vehicle complies with all US EPA requirements for 1993 new
vehicles", it's a Fed/Can. If it says "This vehicle complies with US EPA
and California requirements for 1993 new vehicles", it's California.

> The reason I take it to the dealer is that they're the experts, have all the
> instruments to diagnose these problems and have a national network where
> tech's can dial in and help.

You're mistaken. The dealers don't have any greater or lesser ability to
diagnose these problems than a well-equipped independent tech.

> It cost $80.00 for their analysis and I think it's cheaper than having a
> local mechanic troubleshoot by replacing parts.

A mechanic who troubleshoots by replacing parts isn't a mechanic, he's a
parts changer. Sounds like you didn't know that the scan tools used to
interface with the computer are universally available and virtually every
garage has at least one. And, what'd you get for your $80? An "analysis"
that's iffy at best.

> Most of these mechanics don't like to spend a lot of time
> troubleshooting a problem.

That's true, unfortunately. But, it applies equally to dealer and
non-dealer techs.

DS

Daniel;

Thanks for the feedback. Now I really don't know what to do !! I just came
back in from the garage. I started the car and tapped on the 'SBEC' to see
if the car would die and prove it was in the SBEC somewhere. No luck. I
also gently moved the cables around thinking it could be a loose connection,
bad or broken wire. No luck, it keeps running. Right now I don't have a
lot of confidence in the van unless I can find the problem and feel if I
take it to a local shop, since it runs fine now, they're not going to find
anything either.

Nick

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, ncs wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the feedback. AllData also calls this component the PCM
>> (PowerTrain Control Module)
>
> "PCM" is a generic term, and it is an incorrect one. The correct generic
> term for this device is ECM, Engine Control Module. Chrysler calls it an
> SBEC, Single Board Engine Controller. It does not control the "powertrain"
> (engine + transmission), so it is not a PCM. The TCM (Transmission Control
> Module) is elsewhere in the engine compartment.
>
>
>> The mechanic was willing to talk. He took off the
>> connector to the PCM, and reconnected it and the car started. He thinks
>> a
>> circuit board might be cracked, cold solder joint, etc. I asked if it
>> could
>> be a bad wire. He said he took off the connector to check for power and
>> ground and everything was fine.
>
> His test doesn't tell us it's a cracked board(?! Not unless the van was
> hit hard...that board is fully encapsulated!) or cold solder joint. It
> *could* be a cold solder joint, but if it restarted after removal and
> replacement of the connector, it was much more likely simply a dirty or
> corroded pin or connector socket.
>
>> So he 'thinks' it's the PCM.
>
> I "think" he's probably wrong.
>
>> I might replace the PCM, Autozone has one for $169.00
>
> Waste of money. I see *lots* of them, tested working, for $50 and under on
> car-part.com (search 1993 Dodge Caravan, Computer Box - Engine).
>
>> (how do you tell if it's Fed + Canada or the other ?)
>
> Look at the underhood Vehicle Emission Control Information label. If it
> says "This vehicle complies with all US EPA requirements for 1993 new
> vehicles", it's a Fed/Can. If it says "This vehicle complies with US EPA
> and California requirements for 1993 new vehicles", it's California.
>
>> The reason I take it to the dealer is that they're the experts, have all
>> the
>> instruments to diagnose these problems and have a national network where
>> tech's can dial in and help.
>
> You're mistaken. The dealers don't have any greater or lesser ability to
> diagnose these problems than a well-equipped independent tech.
>
>> It cost $80.00 for their analysis and I think it's cheaper than having a
>> local mechanic troubleshoot by replacing parts.
>
> A mechanic who troubleshoots by replacing parts isn't a mechanic, he's a
> parts changer. Sounds like you didn't know that the scan tools used to
> interface with the computer are universally available and virtually every
> garage has at least one. And, what'd you get for your $80? An "analysis"
> that's iffy at best.
>
>> Most of these mechanics don't like to spend a lot of time
>> troubleshooting a problem.
>
> That's true, unfortunately. But, it applies equally to dealer and
> non-dealer techs.
>
> DS



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would an intermittent crank sensor throw a trouble code ?


"SN" > wrote in message
news:%crSd.77108$GT.54058@okepread01...
> ncs wrote:
>> Car died last night and I had it towed to the dealership. They diagnosed
>> it having an internal short in the PCM. They did get it started and but
>> could not guarantee for how long, they said I might hit a bump and it'll
>> quit again, so I'm thinking it might be a bad wire, loose connection.
>>
>> Can anyone recommend an aftermarket store that sells a good, reliable
>> replacement PCM ? And does anyone have experience with one of these
>> stores. The dealer wants $685 for the job. I think I can get one cheaper
>> and it doesn't seem difficult to r&r. any thoughts ?
>>
>> thanks,
>> Nick
>
> Autozone sells one for about $181. Just realize that once you buy it you
> can't return it.
>
> I'm a little sceptical that the PCM has an intermittent problem unless
> they retrieved a specific code that had been stored in memory that led
> them in this direction. My guess would be something else like a fuel pump
> going bad, an intermittent crank sensor, etc. Of course, this is a wild
> ass guess since I haven't laid eyes on the van. Take it for what it's
> worth - zero :-)



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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, ncs wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback. Now I really don't know what to do !! I just
> came back in from the garage. I started the car and tapped on the
> 'SBEC' to see if the car would die and prove it was in the SBEC
> somewhere. No luck. I also gently moved the cables around thinking it
> could be a loose connection, bad or broken wire. No luck, it keeps
> running.

Stronger and stronger evidence that it was nothing more than a
dirty/corroded pin and/or socket. If you want to fix it more permanently,
find a well-stocked local hardware store that sells a product called
"Ox-Gard", sold for use with aluminum household wiring. It is a green
paste and comes in a small tube. Remove the connector from the SBEC, apply
the Ox-Gard to the surface of the connector and push/work it into the
sockets with your thumbs. Wipe the excess off the surface of the
connector, then reinstall the connector.

> Right now I don't have a lot of confidence in the van unless I can find
> the problem and feel if I take it to a local shop, since it runs fine
> now, they're not going to find anything either.

Yep, time to go into Failure Operation Mode (drive it til it breaks and
then you'll know what it was!)

Seriously, drive it for awhile. Carry a celphone. Odds are fair to good
that the problem will not reoccur, especially if you apply the
conductivity paste to the connector.

DS