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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring.
Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum, rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it, so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor was pointing midway between #1 and #6. There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish troubleshooting it. Thanks. -- Bill Lahr |
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#2
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the front
of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise. Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the delco remy. Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the compression as it comes up. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Bill Lahr wrote: > > I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring. > Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it > has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No > matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum, > rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had > a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had > installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and > I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in > cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is > driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it, > so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor > was pointing midway between #1 and #6. > > There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks > the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to > set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on > top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but > please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I > am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an > engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish > troubleshooting it. > > Thanks. > -- > > Bill Lahr > |
#3
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
Milke,
Thanks. It is difficult to tell from a book. I have a Haynes manual, but the drawing isn't that clear and it doesn't have any details on the early GM engines, only the similar Dauntless V6. The rotor is wide on the Oddfire distributor and mine will either center on #1 at TDC on the compression stroke or point between #1 and #6. If you have one of these engines (Delco distributor), could you pop the cap and look at where the centerline of the rotor points at TDC? There is a small notch on the distributor that represents the #1 position. One would assume it would point to that mark, not past it. Bill Mike Romain wrote: > My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the front > of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise. > > Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the > distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just > slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different > advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the > delco remy. > > Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust > stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the > compression as it comes up. > > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > Bill Lahr wrote: > >>I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring. >>Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it >>has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No >>matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum, >>rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had >>a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had >>installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and >>I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in >>cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is >>driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it, >>so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor >>was pointing midway between #1 and #6. >> >>There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks >>the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to >>set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on >>top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but >>please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I >>am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an >>engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish >>troubleshooting it. >> >>Thanks. >>-- >> >>Bill Lahr -- Bill Lahr |
#4
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
Sorry I don't own one.
It is normal for the rotor to be slightly past #1 if the timing is set at 5 or more degrees BTDC. What that means is the rotor will hit the contact before the engine hits TDC so when the engine finally is at Top, the rotor has past the contact post for #1 wire. The fire happens when the metal part of the rotor first hits the post on the cap or just when the points first crack open. You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points for a static test will tell too. Set the distributor nut down at first flicker. You should have a notch on the flywheel that indicates TDC also. I don't understand how your rotor can point to both places. Either it is right on the center of the post for the wire if you have the prestolite distributor or it is inbetween 1 and 6 for the delco remy. You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points will tell too. Set the distributor at first flicker. The one that catches most folks is the two different top dead centers the #1 piston has with one 360 rotor rotation. Mike Bill Lahr wrote: > > Milke, > > Thanks. It is difficult to tell from a book. I have a Haynes manual, but > the drawing isn't that clear and it doesn't have any details on the > early GM engines, only the similar Dauntless V6. The rotor is wide on > the Oddfire distributor and mine will either center on #1 at TDC on the > compression stroke or point between #1 and #6. If you have one of these > engines (Delco distributor), could you pop the cap and look at where the > centerline of the rotor points at TDC? There is a small notch on the > distributor that represents the #1 position. One would assume it would > point to that mark, not past it. > > Bill > > Mike Romain wrote: > > My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the front > > of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise. > > > > Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the > > distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just > > slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different > > advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the > > delco remy. > > > > Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust > > stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the > > compression as it comes up. > > > > Mike > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590 > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > > > Bill Lahr wrote: > > > >>I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring. > >>Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it > >>has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No > >>matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum, > >>rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had > >>a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had > >>installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and > >>I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in > >>cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is > >>driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it, > >>so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor > >>was pointing midway between #1 and #6. > >> > >>There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks > >>the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to > >>set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on > >>top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but > >>please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I > >>am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an > >>engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish > >>troubleshooting it. > >> > >>Thanks. > >>-- > >> > >>Bill Lahr > > > -- > > Bill Lahr > |
#5
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
Hi Bill,
There's a great possibility if it's not been started after the chain was replace that the cam sprocket is reversed, as it's one for V6 and the other for V8. If correct the intake will begin to open 24 degrees before top dead center. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O http://www.billhughes.com/ Bill Lahr wrote: > > I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring. > Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it > has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No > matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum, > rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had > a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had > installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and > I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in > cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is > driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it, > so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor > was pointing midway between #1 and #6. > > There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks > the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to > set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on > top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but > please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I > am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an > engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish > troubleshooting it. > > Thanks. > -- > > Bill Lahr > |
#6
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
Have that engine with Rochester 4bbl in the boat ,,, service bulletin
says: 1. Rotate engine in normal direction of rotation until the timing mark on the crankshaft balancer lines up with "0" (TDC) on timing tab and engine is in #1 firing position. 2. Look closely at the cam in the distributor. Three lobes have sharper profile than the other three (sharp, round, sharp, round, ... 1 (132 dgrees) 6 (108 degrees) 5 (132 degrees) ... and so on ... ) 3. Install the distributor so that when the rotor is aligned with with the #1 spark plug tower, a rounded lobe is aligned with the rubbing block of the breaker points. 4. Secure distributor with clamp and check engine timing with timing light. For what it's worth I set my timing at 8 degrees and use Shell Silver 89 octane. |
#7
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
The relationship between the GM cap lock screws may help:
http://www.billhughes.com/temp/buickv6fire.jpg God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O bowgus wrote: > > Have that engine with Rochester 4bbl in the boat ,,, service bulletin > says: > > 1. Rotate engine in normal direction of rotation until the timing mark > on the crankshaft balancer lines up with "0" (TDC) on timing tab and > engine is in #1 firing position. > 2. Look closely at the cam in the distributor. Three lobes have sharper > profile than the other three (sharp, round, sharp, round, ... 1 (132 > dgrees) 6 (108 degrees) 5 (132 degrees) ... and so on ... ) > 3. Install the distributor so that when the rotor is aligned with with > the #1 spark plug tower, a rounded lobe is aligned with the rubbing > block of the breaker points. > 4. Secure distributor with clamp and check engine timing with timing > light. For what it's worth I set my timing at 8 degrees and use Shell > Silver 89 octane. |
#8
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
Perhaps he does not understand how to correct the problem if he is one tooth
when the distributor was installed. If it is one tooth off it may still be timeable if the distributor can be rotated sufficiently. Check the timing, with a light, while cranking. If you are one tooth off you may have to search to find the mark. I used to rub chalk or paint the marks with nail polish for visibility. I do not know if this V-6 is an interference engine. Do you know Bill? Note where the rotor points while installed. Carefully and slowly remove distributor Note where rotor now points. Rotate rotor one tooth in the appropriate direction Slowly re-insert distributor Rotor should point directly to cylinder #1 terminal Check timing. Do you have a timing light? If not you can do it manually by setting the timing mark at the appropriate advance and rotating the distributor until you get a spark. "Mike Romain" > wrote in message ... > Sorry I don't own one. > > It is normal for the rotor to be slightly past #1 if the timing is set > at 5 or more degrees BTDC. What that means is the rotor will hit the > contact before the engine hits TDC so when the engine finally is at Top, > the rotor has past the contact post for #1 wire. > > The fire happens when the metal part of the rotor first hits the post on > the cap or just when the points first crack open. > > You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done > with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will > be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points for a > static test will tell too. Set the distributor nut down at first > flicker. > > You should have a notch on the flywheel that indicates TDC also. > > I don't understand how your rotor can point to both places. Either it > is right on the center of the post for the wire if you have the > prestolite distributor or it is inbetween 1 and 6 for the delco remy. > > You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done > with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will > be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points will tell > too. Set the distributor at first flicker. > > The one that catches most folks is the two different top dead centers > the #1 piston has with one 360 rotor rotation. > > Mike > > Bill Lahr wrote: >> >> Milke, >> >> Thanks. It is difficult to tell from a book. I have a Haynes manual, but >> the drawing isn't that clear and it doesn't have any details on the >> early GM engines, only the similar Dauntless V6. The rotor is wide on >> the Oddfire distributor and mine will either center on #1 at TDC on the >> compression stroke or point between #1 and #6. If you have one of these >> engines (Delco distributor), could you pop the cap and look at where the >> centerline of the rotor points at TDC? There is a small notch on the >> distributor that represents the #1 position. One would assume it would >> point to that mark, not past it. >> >> Bill >> >> Mike Romain wrote: >> > My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the >> > front >> > of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise. >> > >> > Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the >> > distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just >> > slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different >> > advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the >> > delco remy. >> > >> > Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust >> > stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the >> > compression as it comes up. >> > >> > Mike >> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 >> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's >> > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! >> > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590 >> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >> > >> > Bill Lahr wrote: >> > >> >>I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring. >> >>Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it >> >>has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No >> >>matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum, >> >>rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance >> >>had >> >>a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner >> >>had >> >>installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, >> >>and >> >>I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in >> >>cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is >> >>driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove >> >>it, >> >>so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor >> >>was pointing midway between #1 and #6. >> >> >> >>There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that >> >>marks >> >>the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to >> >>set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on >> >>top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but >> >>please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but >> >>I >> >>am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an >> >>engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish >> >>troubleshooting it. >> >> >> >>Thanks. >> >>-- >> >> >> >>Bill Lahr >> >> >> -- >> >> Bill Lahr >> |
#9
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
Hi Bill,
The Nash straight six is the only overhead valve engine I know of, that's pistons won't hit the valves, if the cam stops turning. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O http://www.billhughes.com/ billy ray wrote: ><snip> > > I do not know if this V-6 is an interference engine. Do you know Bill? |
#10
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Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru
Thanks to all of you. I can rotate the distributor body enough to line
it up at #1 or between #1 and #6, depending upon how I seat the shaft. There are some hoses and the vacuum advance that limit the adjustment. I am assuming the guy who gave me the Jeep installed the new timing chain properly, since he worked for Hillcrest Cadillac in LA for a time, restoring the antique cars for the Willet H. Brown collection. Some were valued at more than $600,000. (Typical mechanic, fix other peoples' stuff and let yours go to pot.) Yes, I have a timing light, but I wanted to set it with a meter to roughly 5BTDC before I attempt to start it. The oddfire distributor is strange. As to the cam lobes, this is of no importance because the rotor cap is keyed and can only fit one way. I set the point gap at .022, but there is a door on the side of the distributor cap that will let me adjust the dwell once it is running. I have an aftermarket capacitor discharge ignition system for it so the dwell isn't that important. The jeep sat outside for over ten years with water in the radiator. The block, heads and intake manifold are cast iron. I had to use a hammer and chisel to open up the water passages, then followed it with Prestone Super Flush "for neglected cooling systems." It did a nice job of removing the rust. Water seems to be flowing fine now. Once the treatments are done, it will be filled with coolant and water. Ithas a Cadillac radiator, so it shouldn't overheat. The jeep qualified as a basket case, but I am 99% sure I can get it running again. L.W.(Bill) Hughes III wrote: > The relationship between the GM cap lock screws may help: > http://www.billhughes.com/temp/buickv6fire.jpg > God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O > > > bowgus wrote: > >>Have that engine with Rochester 4bbl in the boat ,,, service bulletin >>says: >> >>1. Rotate engine in normal direction of rotation until the timing mark >>on the crankshaft balancer lines up with "0" (TDC) on timing tab and >>engine is in #1 firing position. >>2. Look closely at the cam in the distributor. Three lobes have sharper >>profile than the other three (sharp, round, sharp, round, ... 1 (132 >>dgrees) 6 (108 degrees) 5 (132 degrees) ... and so on ... ) >>3. Install the distributor so that when the rotor is aligned with with >>the #1 spark plug tower, a rounded lobe is aligned with the rubbing >>block of the breaker points. >>4. Secure distributor with clamp and check engine timing with timing >>light. For what it's worth I set my timing at 8 degrees and use Shell >>Silver 89 octane. -- Bill Lahr |
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