Question Platium Spark Plugs

Jason wrote:

> In article . net>, y_p_w
> > wrote:
>
>
>>jim beam wrote:
>>
>>>Jason wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I visited the Honda Parts Department and asked the person behind the
>>>>counter to give me the price of Platium Spark Plugs that would fit in my
>>>>vehicle. I have a 1999 Honda Accord EX (4 cyld.). He told me the part
>>>>number of the plugs that I needed:
>>>>PZFR5F-11
>>>>He told me that the price per plug was $21.30 and the price for 4 plugs
>>>>was $85.20. I thought this was too much money to pay for spark plugs. I
>>>>called a auto store and they told me they charged about the same price
>>>>for
>>>>those same plugs but could sell me other platium spark plugs made by
>>>>another company that cost less than $5.00 per plug. Why do the platium
>>>>spark plugs mentioned above cost so much more than other platium plugs?
>>>>Are they special made for Honda vehicles?
>>>>
>>>
>>>http://sparkplugs.com/results_cross....F-11&x=33&y=10
>>>
>>>sure you can find cheaper if you shop around.
>>
>>For your car, you might be better off with regular NGK plugs changed
>>every 15-30K miles. There's no performance benefit to a platinum
>>plug in your engine, Total cost should be about $8 for four. I'd
>>think the main reason for platinums is a V6 or some high-output
>>engines (DOHC VTEC). Changing plugs on an inline engine is a
>>breeze. For a V6, the long life platinum plugs are nice because
>>the back plugs are a PITA to change.
>>
>>I don't know if regular plugs are spec'ed in your owner's manual, but
>>NGK lists the ZFR5F-11. Of course check your manual and/or the
>>applications guide.
>>
>>As for your original question, NGK platinums use a lot of platinum.
>>There's one spot fused to the ground electrode and another fused to
>>the center electrode. Other plugs may only have a single platinum
>>spot on the center electrode. These plugs aren't really "long
>>life" as the ground electrode fouls up just as easily as a standard
>>plug. I don't trust Autolite, Champion, or Bosch. NGK or Denso
>>are the only way to go with a Honda engine.
>>
>>I think AutoZone carries Denso plugs. Their platinum plugs are
>>excellent, although I really don't believe you need them.
>
> <http://www.densoaftermarket.com/online_catalog.php?part=sprk&year=1999&make=HONDA& model=ACCORD>
>
> The part number for the regular NGK plugs is actually written on a label
> under the hood of my Honda. I have always used the regular NGK plugs until
> this year. However, I recently an article on the NGK website that stated:
> "Platinum spark plugs last much longer than conventional spark plugs and
> perform more consistently over the course of their service life." That's
> why I wanted to try them. One poster told me that he tried them and did
> not notice any difference related to power or torque when he installed the
> NGK platinum plugs. I'm sure he was correct based upon the info. at the
> NGK website.

Nor should he expect any differences in power or torque - the advantage
to platinum plugs is their long service life.

TeGGeR=AE wrote:
> (Jason) wrote in
> :
>
> > One poster
> > told me that he tried them and did not notice any difference
> > related to power or torque when he installed the NGK platinum
> > plugs. I'm sure he was correct based upon the info. at the
> > NGK website.
>
>
>
> Platinum plugs will NOT increase your power or torque. Increasing
> power is NOT the reason platinum is used.

Platinum or iridium plugs can give the engine designer a certain
amount of freedom to let the engine run a little hotter. But if
the engine doesn't need them, it won't help.

> Platinum is used to increase the LONGEVITY of the plug, ensuring a
> more consistent gap over a longer period of time, and thus lower
> emissions. Each time a plug fires, a tiny amount of metal is
> vaporized from the electrodes, eroding them. Platinum erodes more
> slowly than the steel otherwise used.

NGK says that "sharp edges" help to produce a consisten spark
for a longer period of time. When the edges erode, it can miss
a spark. NGK had its "V-Power" center electrode, while Denso
has the "U-Groove" on the ground electrode.

The other benefit is to advertise a longer maintenance interval.
Plus the longer life is really nice when the back plugs of a V6
are a PITA to change.

If you insist on NGK, their standard plugs are about $2 each and
are a breeze to change in an inline 4. If you really want platinum
plugs and don't want to pay NGK prices, Denso are less expensive
and I think just as good. I just called a local AutoZone and got
their price on a Denso PKJ16CR-L11 double platinum plug at $5.99
each. That should be the correct plug for a '99 Accord EX I4.

A Denso (NipponDenso at the time) plug was factory installed in my
'95 Integra GS-R. It's got a 1.3mm gap and runs hotter than most
other engines. Platinum was needed because a standard plug would
erode too quickly. After 60K miles, I looked at it and the plugs
were still in good shape. A good platinum plug can go well beyond
60K miles, but you should check them often.

Speaking of Denso and NGK, I recall one post on a Toyota NG. A
Toyota truck owner had a V6. The factory plugs on one side of
his truck were Denso, while the other side were NGK. They were
both the correct type, but I found it a bit strange.

> Auto manufacturers have a federal emissions warranty that they are
> obligated by law to meet. Their use of exotic-metal plugs is one
> tool in their quest to fulfill their legal obligations.
> http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=3D8128
>
> Other exotic metals used to improve longevity of the plug gap:
> Iridium (installed in our'99 Tercel), and palladium.

Iridium is even more resistant to heat and fouling than platinum.
The metal isn't more expensive, but it's very hard to work with.

In article . com>, "y_p_w"
> wrote:

> TeGGeR=AE wrote:
> > (Jason) wrote in
> > :
> >
> > > One poster
> > > told me that he tried them and did not notice any difference
> > > related to power or torque when he installed the NGK platinum
> > > plugs. I'm sure he was correct based upon the info. at the
> > > NGK website.
> >
> >
> >
> > Platinum plugs will NOT increase your power or torque. Increasing
> > power is NOT the reason platinum is used.
>
> Platinum or iridium plugs can give the engine designer a certain
> amount of freedom to let the engine run a little hotter. But if
> the engine doesn't need them, it won't help.
>
> > Platinum is used to increase the LONGEVITY of the plug, ensuring a
> > more consistent gap over a longer period of time, and thus lower
> > emissions. Each time a plug fires, a tiny amount of metal is
> > vaporized from the electrodes, eroding them. Platinum erodes more
> > slowly than the steel otherwise used.
>
> NGK says that "sharp edges" help to produce a consisten spark
> for a longer period of time. When the edges erode, it can miss
> a spark. NGK had its "V-Power" center electrode, while Denso
> has the "U-Groove" on the ground electrode.
>
> The other benefit is to advertise a longer maintenance interval.
> Plus the longer life is really nice when the back plugs of a V6
> are a PITA to change.
>
> If you insist on NGK, their standard plugs are about $2 each and
> are a breeze to change in an inline 4. If you really want platinum
> plugs and don't want to pay NGK prices, Denso are less expensive
> and I think just as good. I just called a local AutoZone and got
> their price on a Denso PKJ16CR-L11 double platinum plug at $5.99
> each. That should be the correct plug for a '99 Accord EX I4.
>
> A Denso (NipponDenso at the time) plug was factory installed in my
> '95 Integra GS-R. It's got a 1.3mm gap and runs hotter than most
> other engines. Platinum was needed because a standard plug would
> erode too quickly. After 60K miles, I looked at it and the plugs
> were still in good shape. A good platinum plug can go well beyond
> 60K miles, but you should check them often.
>
> Speaking of Denso and NGK, I recall one post on a Toyota NG. A
> Toyota truck owner had a V6. The factory plugs on one side of
> his truck were Denso, while the other side were NGK. They were
> both the correct type, but I found it a bit strange.
>
> > Auto manufacturers have a federal emissions warranty that they are
> > obligated by law to meet. Their use of exotic-metal plugs is one
> > tool in their quest to fulfill their legal obligations.
> > http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=3D8128
> >
> > Other exotic metals used to improve longevity of the plug gap:
> > Iridium (installed in our'99 Tercel), and palladium.
>
> Iridium is even more resistant to heat and fouling than platinum.
> The metal isn't more expensive, but it's very hard to work with.

Thanks for a great post. I learned a lot from your post and
the various other posts.
Two of the most important lessons: Don't buy platinum plugs from
any Honda dealership--they actually sell NGK platinum plugs for
about $20.00 each--what a rip-off.
The other lesson: Don't buy an air filter from a Honda dealership.
One poster said he purchased an air filter from NAPA for half the
price that the Honda dealership wanted to charge him. He said the
NAPA air filter was just as good as the Honda air filter. Honda
should stop trying to rip off customers with high priced parts.

--
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We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Jason wrote:

> The other lesson: Don't buy an air filter from a Honda dealership.

I bought an air filter from a Honda dealership last year for $20 Canadian.
That, to me, is not a rip-off.

Perhaps some dealers overcharge while others do not?

S.S. wrote:
> Jason wrote:
>
>
>>The other lesson: Don't buy an air filter from a Honda dealership.
>
>
> I bought an air filter from a Honda dealership last year for $20 Canadian.
> That, to me, is not a rip-off.
>
> Perhaps some dealers overcharge while others do not?


some dont. among them...?

slhonda.com?
manhonda.com?

(Jason) wrote in
:


> The other lesson: Don't buy an air filter from a Honda dealership.
> One poster said he purchased an air filter from NAPA for half the
> price that the Honda dealership wanted to charge him. He said the
> NAPA air filter was just as good as the Honda air filter.


"He said..."? And he's a filtration expert with access to the appropriate
testing equipment? I think not.

_Nobody_ in this group has any idea whether or not an aftermarket filter is
"just as good". And since it takes tens of thousands of miles and many
years for damage to show up from the use of a poor-quality filter, most
people will never know if it was "just as good" or not, much less be able
to definitively pin the damage down to that filter instead of some other
factor.

Those of use who intend on making our engines last galactic mileages are
the ones who will most experience the detriment of poor-quality parts. I
always use OEM air filters, paying the ten bucks extra per year.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:

> (Jason) wrote in
> :
>
>
>
>>The other lesson: Don't buy an air filter from a Honda dealership.
>>One poster said he purchased an air filter from NAPA for half the
>>price that the Honda dealership wanted to charge him. He said the
>>NAPA air filter was just as good as the Honda air filter.
>
>
>
> "He said..."? And he's a filtration expert with access to the appropriate
> testing equipment? I think not.
>
> _Nobody_ in this group has any idea whether or not an aftermarket filter is
> "just as good". And since it takes tens of thousands of miles and many
> years for damage to show up from the use of a poor-quality filter, most
> people will never know if it was "just as good" or not, much less be able
> to definitively pin the damage down to that filter instead of some other
> factor.
>
> Those of use who intend on making our engines last galactic mileages are
> the ones who will most experience the detriment of poor-quality parts. I
> always use OEM air filters, paying the ten bucks extra per year.

Depends on which one. There are the reasonably priced box filters,
where OEM isn't that much more. Then there's the 1994-2001 Integra
air filter.

<http://images1.drivewire.com/live/B100082249BOS.JPG>

By my first replacement, the OEM Toyo Roki filter was a whopping $40
at the dealer. A South Korean made Purolator equivalent was $12.99
at Pep Boys, and the identical filter was sold under various brand
names with nothing more than a different box and the reseller's name
and part # in dot matrix printing. I think the OEM is more now - the
last time I checked it was almost $50.

We don't necessarily know if the OEM is even the best. Sometimes it's
only the most expensive. I've been checking the used oil analysis
forums, and people using aftermarket air filters have been doing OK.
Going aftermarket might not be worth it for a $12 OEM filter, but
you seriously start thinking about it if it's $50.

As for spark plugs, we know for certain that "OEM" parts by NGK and
Denso are available in aftermarket channels at reasonable prices.
I can't think of any reason why not to go to a parts store for
spark plugs when you know they have the identical part that the
dealer has.

y_p_w > wrote in
ink.net:


>
> We don't necessarily know if the OEM is even the best.



Absolutely true, unfortunately.

You know, there's precious little we "know" about most ANYTHING we buy for
our cars. Most of what we "know" is guesswork or anecdotal in origin.


> Sometimes it's
> only the most expensive.



Yep.

Some Toyota clutches supplied by LuK are available aftermarket for less
than the dealer. Identical clutch kit.

An OEM single-core radiator for my Integra is $650. I can (and did) get an
aftermarket dual-core Valeo or Visteon for less than half that, and with no
loss in longevity or perceived quality.

Oddly, I have discovered OEM parts available at wildly different prices.
Example: 0.9 bar ND rad cap. $30 at Honda dealers, $12 at Toyota ones.
Identical cap, mind you.



> I've been checking the used oil analysis
> forums, and people using aftermarket air filters have been doing OK.
> Going aftermarket might not be worth it for a $12 OEM filter, but
> you seriously start thinking about it if it's $50.



Luckily, mine are $20.



>
> As for spark plugs, we know for certain that "OEM" parts by NGK and
> Denso are available in aftermarket channels at reasonable prices.
> I can't think of any reason why not to go to a parts store for
> spark plugs when you know they have the identical part that the
> dealer has.


See a new thread for an NGK update.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

In article >, "TeGGeR®"
> wrote:

> y_p_w > wrote in
> ink.net:
>
>
> >
> > We don't necessarily know if the OEM is even the best.
>
>
>
> Absolutely true, unfortunately.
>
> You know, there's precious little we "know" about most ANYTHING we buy for
> our cars. Most of what we "know" is guesswork or anecdotal in origin.
>
>
> > Sometimes it's
> > only the most expensive.
>
>
>
> Yep.
>
> Some Toyota clutches supplied by LuK are available aftermarket for less
> than the dealer. Identical clutch kit.
>
> An OEM single-core radiator for my Integra is $650. I can (and did) get an
> aftermarket dual-core Valeo or Visteon for less than half that, and with no
> loss in longevity or perceived quality.
>
> Oddly, I have discovered OEM parts available at wildly different prices.
> Example: 0.9 bar ND rad cap. $30 at Honda dealers, $12 at Toyota ones.
> Identical cap, mind you.
>
>
>
> > I've been checking the used oil analysis
> > forums, and people using aftermarket air filters have been doing OK.
> > Going aftermarket might not be worth it for a $12 OEM filter, but
> > you seriously start thinking about it if it's $50.
>
>
>
> Luckily, mine are $20.
>
>
>
> >
> > As for spark plugs, we know for certain that "OEM" parts by NGK and
> > Denso are available in aftermarket channels at reasonable prices.
> > I can't think of any reason why not to go to a parts store for
> > spark plugs when you know they have the identical part that the
> > dealer has.
>
>
> See a new thread for an NGK update.

Tegger,
Do you know whether or not FRAM air filters are OEM certified? When I
owned a Chevy cars--I used lots of FRAM air filters and they seemed to me
to work really well. I used one in my 1999 Accord. Before I tossed the
Honda filter in the trash can, I compared the two filters. The Fram air
filter at least looked to me to be as well made as the Honda filter.
What's your opinion related Fram air filters? Fram now makes a "high flow"
air filter. Do you recommend them?
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Jason wrote:

> Tegger,
> Do you know whether or not FRAM air filters are OEM certified? When I
> owned a Chevy cars--I used lots of FRAM air filters and they seemed to me
> to work really well. I used one in my 1999 Accord. Before I tossed the
> Honda filter in the trash can, I compared the two filters. The Fram air
> filter at least looked to me to be as well made as the Honda filter.
> What's your opinion related Fram air filters? Fram now makes a "high flow"
> air filter. Do you recommend them?
> Jason

Honda would never

I don't care for Fram. I personally think they cut corners although
it would be difficult for anyone to prove that the Fram filter is
at fault. I've purchased Fram air filters, and have cut myself
when the wire frame cut through the soft foam. If I were to go
aftermarket, it would be Purolator, AC Delco, or STP. I might go
with a Fram if I knew it wasn't one they made themselves.