Buying 4X4, and trying to understand 4wd terms and types, advice requested.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:55:00 -0700, Chris J. >
wrote:

>
>So far, my list of candidates is
>Toyota rav-4 and 4-runner
>Honda Element
>Chevy tracker
>Suzuki Vitara
>
>Any vehicles I should add to this list?


Mitsubishi Shogun Pinin.
Small but perfectly formed, and will go where the others won't.

--

Paul


(Watch this space)

I suggest hang with one of the local clubs for a while ... see what works
for them (assuming there's a club nearby).

"Chris J." > wrote in message
...
> A few weeks ago, I started shopping for a 4X4, and was a bit confused
> so decided to do some research. Well, I'm no longer a bit confused,
> I'm now totally confused.
>
> I'm trying to get an understanding of a few things, such as All-wheel
> drive Vs. low range part-time 4wd. Which is better (and is there a big
> difference?) for ice and snow, such as trying to go up steep hills in
> snow?
>
> I'm looking for a small SUV, and there are a lot of rough dirt roads
> and trails in my area so I would like high clearance. Some SUV's seem
> to have very poor ground clearance, and I've seen very little in
> vehicle reviews that actually get into off-road or rough-road
> capabilities.
>
> I'm a realtor, so I sometimes need a 4-door, so I've ruled out the
> Jeep Wrangler. I've also ruled out the Subaru Forrester and Outback
> due to what looks to be poor ground clearance. I'd also like to stay
> under 25k.
>
> So far, my list of candidates is
> Toyota rav-4 and 4-runner
> Honda Element
> Chevy tracker
> Suzuki Vitara
>
> Any vehicles I should add to this list?
> My only absolute requirements are 4 wheel drive and decent rough-road
> capability, plus non-disasterous rollover ratings.
>
> I'm also open to used vehicles, but I've always been a bit wary of
> used vehicles due to potential mechanical problems hidden by the
> seller.
>
> Any advice appreciated... I've spent several days looking around
> dealerships, and so far all I've done is raise my blood pressure and
> confusion level.

"Chris J." > wrote in message
...
> I'm trying to get an understanding of a few things, such as All-wheel
> drive Vs. low range part-time 4wd. Which is better (and is there a big
> difference?) for ice and snow, such as trying to go up steep hills in
> snow?

AWD is generally meant for car-like vehicles on slippery streets (ice, snow)
or mild offroad conditions.

Traditional low range 4wd is vastly more effective in BAD conditions because
the low gearing lets you move slowly with high torque. This is usually
coupled with a truck frame that is much tougher.

An AWD system has more potential if someone would put low gears in them, but
they generally don't.

> I'm looking for a small SUV, and there are a lot of rough dirt roads
> and trails in my area so I would like high clearance. Some SUV's seem
> to have very poor ground clearance, and I've seen very little in
> vehicle reviews that actually get into off-road or rough-road
> capabilities.

They'd break them and have to fix them!

Read 4x4 magazines instead of car magazines. Quick Googling:

http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/Li...inesonline.htm
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/
http://www.4x4i.com/


> I'm a realtor, so I sometimes need a 4-door, so I've ruled out the
> Jeep Wrangler.

How about the Jeep Liberty?

> So far, my list of candidates is
> Toyota rav-4 and 4-runner

4-Runner will do the job, but not for under $25K.

> Honda Element

AWD system, if that's good enough.

> Chevy tracker
> Suzuki Vitara

These 2 are the same vehicle. Built on a frame, probably more capable than
most in the price range. NOT a good reputation for quality or satisfaction.

> Any vehicles I should add to this list?
> My only absolute requirements are 4 wheel drive and decent rough-road
> capability, plus non-disasterous rollover ratings.

Jeep Liberty? By a copy of Consumer Reports car guide for the rollover
figures.

> I'm also open to used vehicles, but I've always been a bit wary of
> used vehicles due to potential mechanical problems hidden by the
> seller.

The Toyota 4 Runner would do the job, it would have to be used for your
price range.

> Any advice appreciated... I've spent several days looking around
> dealerships, and so far all I've done is raise my blood pressure and
> confusion level.

It depends on how rough the rough roads are. If you've got significant
rocks or ditches in the roads then I'd certainly go for a 4-low vehicle.
Your comment about ground clearance hints that you need a true 4-low vehicle
rather than an AWD.

"Chris J." > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:31:45 -0700, "Generic" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Chris J." > wrote in message
> .. .
> Thank you. I can now rule out AWD without low range.

One more thing, car-based AWD vehicle bodies tend to bend and crack on bad
roads. The truck frame keeps the stress off the body.

> >Read 4x4 magazines instead of car magazines. Quick Googling:
> >http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/Li...inesonline.htm
> >http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/
> >http://www.4x4i.com/
> Thanks!!! I'll check out all these tonight.

Google is your friend. You may find better ones on your own.

> >> I'm a realtor, so I sometimes need a 4-door, so I've ruled out the
> >> Jeep Wrangler.
> >How about the Jeep Liberty?
> I forgot that one when I posted. I've looked at it, and like it. I
> don't like it's 3-star rollover rating or insurance premium or 13 mpg,
> though. But, if I don't find anything I prefer, that's probably what
> I'll go with.

Maybe your expectations are set a bit wrong. A traditional 4x4 will ride
high and bouncy. It will be more likely to roll than most AWD vehicles. A
traditional 4x4 will usually get lousy gas mileage.

For years and years the classic Jeeps (CJ series--before Wrangler) were
known for rolling. They are built narrow and tall for going down the worst
possible roads.

Everything is a trade-off.

> >4-Runner will do the job, but not for under $25K.
> Looks like it's around 30k MSRP, which would be ok if I really like
> it. Haven't driven it yet, as it seems a bit large for my tastes, but
> it's definitely a possibility.

Truck based, Toyota standards. You might also consider the Nissan
Xterra--trucky and crude though.

> >> Chevy tracker
> >> Suzuki Vitara
> >These 2 are the same vehicle. Built on a frame, probably more capable
than
> >most in the price range. NOT a good reputation for quality or
satisfaction.
>
> I have driven both and never noticed they were the same! But now that
> you mention it they were the same underneath and under the hood from
> what I recall, and at least similar inside. I found that they did not
> ride that well.

All the truck based vehicles will ride worse than car based ones. To some
extent you just have to live with it--side effect of the body on frame
design. Furthermore, many off road 4x4s have solid axles, and while these
are tough they tend to bounce over rough spots.

> >Jeep Liberty? By a copy of Consumer Reports car guide for the rollover
> >figures.
> I've been getting my rollover and safety figures from safercar.gov
> which has been very useful. But I'll definitely get consumer reports,
> too.

Try edmunds.com and http://auto.consumerguide.com.

> >It depends on how rough the rough roads are. If you've got significant
> >rocks or ditches in the roads then I'd certainly go for a 4-low vehicle.
> >Your comment about ground clearance hints that you need a true 4-low
vehicle
> >rather than an AWD.

> Clearance is definitely a need. I'm talking mountain roads, very
> steep, plenty of gullies and rock outcroppings, plus stream beds, etc.
> Basically what would be called a jeep trail if it was a bit less
> rough. I also have a concrete driveway that's 200 ft. long, and slopes
> at over 30 degrees. That's a pain in the neck when covered in snow.

In my usage a 'jeep trail' is as bad as it gets! Keep shopping, something
will be right.

-John

"Chris J." > wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:31:45 -0700, "Generic" >
> wrote:
>> Thank you. I can now rule out AWD without low range.

If you really need a 4x4 that's true. OTOH, if you really need one, I wouldn't expect
to see the Honda Element on your list. The Outback (the 2005 has excellent clearance
for a softroader) or Forester that you eliminated, are far better in bad conditions.

FWIW, I had a family member in a similar position to you. Considering softroader
and 4x4 wagons. She wasn't sure something like a sube would handle her rutted dirt
requirements. I sent her photos of mine on ruts, and on rock, and she bought one
right away. Does everything she needs, and more pleasant on the highway than
her old wagon or the 4x4 she was considering.

OTOH, if you do need a 4x4, with your budget constraints (or with my own),
I guess I'd lean towards a Frontier pickup, or possibly an Xterra or Rodeo.
Probably used. The Frontier is plenty capable, although a bit slow, and it's
cheaper than a Toyota.

In your position, I guess the first thing I would do is determine if I needed a 4x4 or if
a soaftroader would do. Some people take these vehicles to the dirt on test drives.
That might tell you all you need to know...

Oh, and if you want handling as well as rutted dirt capability, Subaru may be
the only choice.

I have a 4WD Glossary and other basic information and links on my page:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/index.shtml#GeneralInfo

--
Roger

Chris J. proclaimed:

> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:06:55 +0100, Paul Rooney >
> wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:55:00 -0700, Chris J. >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So far, my list of candidates is
>>>Toyota rav-4 and 4-runner
>>>Honda Element
>>>Chevy tracker
>>>Suzuki Vitara
>>>
>>>Any vehicles I should add to this list?
>>
>>
>>Mitsubishi Shogun Pinin.
>>Small but perfectly formed, and will go where the others won't.
>
>
> Never heard of it!
> OK, just did a search, and found it. It looks small, which is what
> I've been looking for.
>
> It's got low range 4wd, and great gas milage.
>
> Trouble is, I neglected to mention that I'm in the US; Northern
> Arizona. This appears to be a UK model. Mitsubishi does not appear to
> have anything like it in the USA.
>
> However, I've bought vehicles in Europe before and shipped them over.
> So, if it's available in left-hand drive in Europe or Asia, I may get
> one. I've definitely added this to my "must see" list, and I'll be in
> Europe in a couple of weeks so I'll have a chance to look at it.
> Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Check out the Mitsu Montero Sport. It is a bit more trucklike than
the Toyota 4-runner, but is a genuine rough trail vehicle. With
their current financial woes you might get a fairly good deal.

"Chris J." > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:05:28 -0700, "Generic" >
> wrote:
> >> I drove a Liberty yesterday. Loved the ride, far better than I
> >
> >Yeah, I've driven one too. They ride somewhere in between a traditional
4x4
> >and an AWD like the Ford Escape. The biggest issue with traditional 4X4s
is
> >the solid axles. The Liberty has one at the rear, so you can feel a bit
of
> >wheel hop on bumps. The front has independent suspension, which smooths
the
> >ride but softens the vehicle.
>
> I just wish they made something akin to the old Eagle cars; those had
> high clearance, 4X4, but were smaller. I have no idea how their
> suspension systems were, but they sure looked to be a good concept to
> me, and it's too bad they died out. I still see plenty of them on the
> road (they were and are very popular in my area).

Those were famously unreliable but held on for years in a niche before SUVs
broke into the mainstream. Modern crossover SUVs like the VW Toureg /
Porsche Cayenne and Nissan Murano aim for a similar use. Something like the
Dodge Magnum with 4 wheel drive... The modern versions don't seem to care
about serious off road use though.

> >> >Truck based, Toyota standards. You might also consider the Nissan
> >> >Xterra--trucky and crude though.
> >> Looked at it; it's too large.
> >Seems about the same size as the 4 Runner. Much cheaper too (and much
> >cruder).
>
> I disliked the 4-runner based on it's large size, too.
> As for "cruder", what do you mean? Inferior 4x4 or highway
> characteristics? If it's just an issue of trim, style, and luxury
> stuff, I'd much prefer to save the $$$.

Crude ride, not as luxurious. The Xterra ranks poorly on user satisfaction,
but I think that's because the style (roof line and roof rack) induces a lot
of city people to buy it. They get an off road vehicle with lousy gas
mileage and a truck ride.

> >> A Jeep Liberty looks to be the main contender right now. It was better
> >> than I expected, and that on-pavment 4wd mode plus low range is a real
> >> plus in my mind. I'm also adding a Jeep Jimmy to my list, as it's
> >
> >Confirm that the system is TRULY equal to the off road only system. I
doubt
> >the salesdudes would know.
>
> I fully intend to do so. My rule with salespeople is "if they say it,
> it's probably a lie, but it just might be true so check.".

Check out http://jeep.com. They've got a 'build your vehicle' system and
lists stuff like axles and gear ratios. [I had a Ford Escape sales jock
give me the hard sell on the Escape, saying "None of the Wrangler models
except for the Rubicon are more capable off road." Right.]

> BTW, a note to anyone thinking of buying any sort of vehicle; DO NOT
> let the salecritter put you in his office and play the "wait here
> while I ask the manager" game. They do this on purpose; the idea is to
> wear down the customer with waiting. If they try this, either say "no
> thanks" or "fine, I'll go with you to the manager, or I'm out of
> here".

I do a pile of on-line research and USUALLY know more about the vehicle I
want than the sales person. You can find the inventory for most dealers on
line so find exactly what you want, but compare it with prices all over your
area. I play dumb during their sales routine and act like I'm not sure even
though I know precisely what I want. If/when they try old-hat sales tricks
I can grab a bundle of info on their products from my car.

-John

Paul Rooney > wrote in message >. ..
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:55:00 -0700, Chris J. >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >So far, my list of candidates is
> >Toyota rav-4 and 4-runner
> >Honda Element
> >Chevy tracker
> >Suzuki Vitara
> >
> >Any vehicles I should add to this list?
>
>
Chevy Tracker's are the worst if you get into a roll-over, or any
crash for that matter. My sister got in one and there was nothing to
protect her. Luckily she just walked away with a broken clavical.
With the way the car looked, she should have been DEAD. It was the
best vehicle on hot summer days because we had a rag-top but there is
no roll-cage what so ever.

In article >,
Chris J. > wrote:

> A few weeks ago, I started shopping for a 4X4, and was a bit confused
> so decided to do some research. Well, I'm no longer a bit confused,
> I'm now totally confused.
>


Check out the Kia Sorento.

Positives:
1) Compact to midsized
2) Real 4x4 off road capabilities
3) Real 4x4 low gear
4) Body-on-frame construction
5) Solid driving feel
6) Well appointed interior (take it off road, then to dinner! :-))
7) Priced lower than competition
8) Excellent warranty


Negatives:
1) Gas mileage is less than the unibody SUV pretenders.
2) Still new (1st model year was 2003, introduced Dec. 2002 I think)

I have 10,000 Kms and one year on the car with no problems. I live in the
snow belt so I've seen the advantage of 4x4 traction first hand. Put good
winters on the Sorento and you can go anywhere.

--
Tim Lapin