A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto makers » Chrysler
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

freon



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old July 15th 05, 11:08 AM
Coasty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Must be Sterns bitch enough said!

--
Coasty
SEMPAR PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Coasty" > wrote:
>
>> "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > "maxpower" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like
>> >> most
>> >> people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity
>> >
>> > Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
>> > error.

>>
>>
>>
>> He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
>> replacement along with several others see link
>> http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig...sts/mvacs.html

>
> Daniel never made any sort of claim that Freeze 12 wasn't on the
> SNAP list.
> If you can bring up a post of his to the contrary, I'd love to
> see it.
>
>> Yes EPA certification can be gained rather easily from many sources,
>> which
>> highlights all the rules nothing about repair and maintenance of systems.

>
> I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.
> Given all the classes you claim to have attended, I find it
> surprising that it hasn't occurred to you that the EPA is in the
> business of enforcing environmental policy, not how to repair an
> automobile.
>
>> In the state where I live I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just
>> really
>> does not have any practical knowledge.

>
> Well, I've known him for at least eight years, and I disagree.
>
>> Also, where I live it is illegal to
>> buy R12 and transport into the State if you get caught you can lose
>> everything.

>
> Since R-12 isn't illegal and there is none being manufactured in
> the United States and thusly, your state, the question is; how do
> the wholesalers get R-12 into your state for legitimate re-sale
> without "losing everything?"
>
>> Many States have their own environmental laws that tighten up
>> the Federal EPA laws that is why R12 is so expensive here if you buy it
>> legally.

>
> Yes, I believe I'd already cited examples to that effect in my
> reply to Bill Putney.
>
>> As said before, I show mine if he shows his and if I was a betting man he
>> is
>> not EPA certified or has a Master HVAC license.

>
> You'd lose that bet.
>
>> Also, I attend refresher EPA training every two years to keep up on the
>> changing laws. One call to the EPA hot line for doing something wrong
>> could
>> ruin a person and company. It is a $10k fine for each occurrence and
>> they
>> list their violators so in many cases the days of the shade tree HVAC do
>> it
>> yourself are gone, unless you want to risk fines or jail.

>
> ISTR reading this somewhere else...
>
>
>> Recently I was at a local land fill where people just toss their AC units
>> refrigerators into a box for scrap, there were over 55 items in the bin,
>> 55x
>> $10k is a lot of
>> money that could be mine for a free call. I contacted the head of the
>> Counties waste management and pointed out the error of their ways. Two
>> days
>> later they asked me to bid on the recovery of the units, and I refused
>> because of implications. Now the County has one of the HVAC mechanics
>> recovering everything that comes in as per the EPA.

>
> So?
>
>> People treat the law as non-applicable to themselves until they get
>> caught
>> then it is everyone else's fault and people who say it is ok to do so
>> perpetuate the situation. I also belong to several National Organizations
>> which continuously keep up on the changing laws, and HVAC equipment
>> maintenance and repair.

>
> Then you should appreciate Daniel's comments since he has been
> citing chapter and verse the fact that there is no such thing as
> a "drop in replacement" for R-12.
>
>> It is easy to read something and interpret some information that is only
>> 1/3
>> of the equation practical knowledge is the other 2/3 of the equation.

>
> You -do- realize that this is usenet, don't you?
> I suppose somewhere in the future there will be three dimensional
> computer monitors and forums such as this will allow a
> realization of that other "2/3 of the equation."



Ads
  #32  
Old July 15th 05, 06:29 PM
Len G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hell I am in Ontario Canada and we cannot buy it here, yet I can cross
the border into Niagara Falls New York and buy it and even tell them
at customs I have it and they don't give me a problem.

Worst part about it all is that I can walk into any electronics supply
house and buy it and many places like staples still sell it.

Go into a staples or some place that sells compressed air, if it
doesn't say environmentally friend then read the whole label chances
are its 134a, go to an electronics supply house, not radio shack,
though they might have it and look for some component cooler or freeze
spray, again its 134a.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:01:14 -0400, Bill Putney >
wrote:

>aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> tom > wrote:

>
>>>...Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
>>>license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
>>>with no such requirement.

>>
>>
>> Many states have their own licensing requirements, some only
>> require the purchaser to have the "609" certification. Check the
>> laws in your state.

>
>Maybe I missed something in what was being said there, but apparently in
>my state, there are absolutely no licensing requirements for 134A.
>Anyone can walk into any auto parts store and buy it just like they
>would an oil filter. I assumed it was that way in most other U.S.
>states. Apparently not? (or am I mis-reading something said earlier?)
>
>Bill Putney
>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>adddress with the letter 'x')


  #33  
Old July 15th 05, 07:27 PM
maxpower
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Coasty" > wrote in message
...
> Must be Sterns bitch enough said!
>
> --
> Coasty
> SEMPAR PARATUS
> (ALWAYS READY)
>
> "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Coasty" > wrote:
> >
> >> "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > In article >,
> >> > "maxpower" > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like
> >> >> most
> >> >> people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
> >> > error.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
> >> replacement along with several others see link
> >> http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig...sts/mvacs.html

> >
> > Daniel never made any sort of claim that Freeze 12 wasn't on the
> > SNAP list.
> > If you can bring up a post of his to the contrary, I'd love to
> > see it.
> >
> >> Yes EPA certification can be gained rather easily from many sources,
> >> which
> >> highlights all the rules nothing about repair and maintenance of

systems.
> >
> > I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.
> > Given all the classes you claim to have attended, I find it
> > surprising that it hasn't occurred to you that the EPA is in the
> > business of enforcing environmental policy, not how to repair an
> > automobile.
> >
> >> In the state where I live I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just
> >> really
> >> does not have any practical knowledge.

> >
> > Well, I've known him for at least eight years, and I disagree.
> >
> >> Also, where I live it is illegal to
> >> buy R12 and transport into the State if you get caught you can lose
> >> everything.

> >
> > Since R-12 isn't illegal and there is none being manufactured in
> > the United States and thusly, your state, the question is; how do
> > the wholesalers get R-12 into your state for legitimate re-sale
> > without "losing everything?"
> >
> >> Many States have their own environmental laws that tighten up
> >> the Federal EPA laws that is why R12 is so expensive here if you buy it
> >> legally.

> >
> > Yes, I believe I'd already cited examples to that effect in my
> > reply to Bill Putney.
> >
> >> As said before, I show mine if he shows his and if I was a betting man

he
> >> is
> >> not EPA certified or has a Master HVAC license.

> >
> > You'd lose that bet.
> >
> >> Also, I attend refresher EPA training every two years to keep up on the
> >> changing laws. One call to the EPA hot line for doing something wrong
> >> could
> >> ruin a person and company. It is a $10k fine for each occurrence and
> >> they
> >> list their violators so in many cases the days of the shade tree HVAC

do
> >> it
> >> yourself are gone, unless you want to risk fines or jail.

> >
> > ISTR reading this somewhere else...
> >
> >
> >> Recently I was at a local land fill where people just toss their AC

units
> >> refrigerators into a box for scrap, there were over 55 items in the

bin,
> >> 55x
> >> $10k is a lot of
> >> money that could be mine for a free call. I contacted the head of the
> >> Counties waste management and pointed out the error of their ways. Two
> >> days
> >> later they asked me to bid on the recovery of the units, and I refused
> >> because of implications. Now the County has one of the HVAC mechanics
> >> recovering everything that comes in as per the EPA.

> >
> > So?
> >
> >> People treat the law as non-applicable to themselves until they get
> >> caught
> >> then it is everyone else's fault and people who say it is ok to do so
> >> perpetuate the situation. I also belong to several National

Organizations
> >> which continuously keep up on the changing laws, and HVAC equipment
> >> maintenance and repair.

> >
> > Then you should appreciate Daniel's comments since he has been
> > citing chapter and verse the fact that there is no such thing as
> > a "drop in replacement" for R-12.
> >
> >> It is easy to read something and interpret some information that is

only
> >> 1/3
> >> of the equation practical knowledge is the other 2/3 of the equation.

> >
> > You -do- realize that this is usenet, don't you?
> > I suppose somewhere in the future there will be three dimensional
> > computer monitors and forums such as this will allow a
> > realization of that other "2/3 of the equation."

>
>

LOL Bingo!!!


  #34  
Old July 15th 05, 07:41 PM
Daniel J. Stern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Len G wrote:

> Go into a staples or some place that sells compressed air, if it doesn't
> say environmentally friend then read the whole label chances are its
> 134a, go to an electronics supply house, not radio shack, though they
> might have it and look for some component cooler or freeze spray, again
> its 134a.


The stuff sold as air dusters is often R134a, but doing as you implicitly
suggest and charging it into an A/C system is foolhardy. Why? Because it's
not even close to being pure or dry. It doesn't have to be, for dusting
the Oreo crumbs out of your keyboard. It DOES have to be, for use in an
A/C system. Charging an A/C system with wet/impure refrigerant is a
sure-fire recipe for expensive system damage. After the filter-dryer is
saturated and can sequester no more moisture -- which is not at all
difficult; the dryer is not meant to handle more than tiny amounts of
residual moisture -- the remaining moisture reacts with the refrigerant at
high temperatures to form aggressive Hydrofluoric acid, which eats thin
aluminum voraciously (evaporator, condenser). Moisture also freezes in
TXVs and orifice tubes, causing a clog that reduces system performance to
near zero and sends head pressure skyrocketing. And finally, all the
impurities in duster-grade gas further reduce system performance as
noncondensibles.

Putting duster-grade R134a in an A/C system is *almost* as poor an idea as
charging an A/C system with camping fuel, for the same (wet/impure)
reason. The camping fuel idea is somewhat more knotheaded, for reasons
that have already been done to death in this forum.

DS (waiting for those two idiots to make vague and unsupported assertions)


  #35  
Old July 15th 05, 10:19 PM
Z.Z.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

>
> The stuff sold as air dusters is often R134a, ...


It really gets me that it's illegal (in the U.S., at least) to vent R134
from a car's A/C system but there's no problem with venting it from those
'air' dusters and other products in which it's used as a propellant. From
what I understand, you can't buy R134 at all in Canada without a license
but those dusters. etc. that use it are OK for anyone to buy & use.
  #36  
Old July 15th 05, 10:29 PM
pawn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Coasty wrote:
>
>
>>>Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in error.

>
>
>>He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
>>replacement

>
>
> I never *ever* disputed this.
>
>
>>I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just really does not have any
>>practical knowledge.

>
>
> You have no idea how much practical knowledge I have.
>


Oh brother. (rolls eyes)

  #37  
Old July 15th 05, 10:58 PM
Daniel J. Stern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Z.Z. wrote:

> Daniel J. Stern wrote:


> It really gets me that it's illegal (in the U.S., at least) to vent R134
> from a car's A/C system but there's no problem with venting it from
> those 'air' dusters and other products in which it's used as a
> propellant.


It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper procedures
being followed -- to say nothing of accidental CFC releases -- in the
field.

> From what I understand, you can't buy R134 at all in Canada without a
> license but those dusters. etc. that use it are OK for anyone to buy &
> use.


True. Canada's auto A/C regulations are more restrictive than those of the
US. It's illegal in Canada, for instance, to charge an auto A/C system
with R12. If an R12 system needs to be evacuated to make a repair, it may
not legally be refilled with R12.
  #38  
Old July 16th 05, 02:11 AM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"Coasty" > wrote:

> Must be Sterns bitch enough said!


Your computer seems to have run out of comma's and apostrophe's.
Please visit your local grade school for a free re-fill.

Or; you -could- take the route where you don't look like such a
blow hard and answer the questions that I posed.

1) Show where Daniel Stern stated that Freeze-12 was not an
approved substitute for R-12.

2) Explain how wholesalers and/or retailers obtain supplies of
R-12 in your state and avoid "losing everything."
  #39  
Old July 16th 05, 02:12 AM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"maxpower" > wrote:

> LOL Bingo!!!


You can go hump your sock puppet now...
  #40  
Old July 16th 05, 04:02 AM
Z.Z.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

>
> It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
> think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
> conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper
> procedures being followed ...


I guess that could be a consideration. But it seems to me that if the
goal truly is to limit the emission of (supposedly) ozone-depleting
and/or greenhouse gasses there'd be some limits on using them in aerosol
cans as well. I mean, most automotive A/C system hold, what?, a couple
pounds of refrigerant, mostly r-134 these days. Even assuming that all
that 134 will eventually leak out, how much more will be emitted from
spray cans over the same time period? The 134 in your car's A/C should
last several years, barring some catastrophic failure. In that time,
you'll likely release many times that amount in propellant in the various
spray cans you use...deoderant, spray paint, canned 'air', etc. I'd think
that over a given time period, many time more r-134 would be released
from spray cans than from car A/C systems. But then, laws aren't always
made based on valid scientific knowledge or logic...

>
> True. Canada's auto A/C regulations are more restrictive than those of
> the US. It's illegal in Canada, for instance, to charge an auto A/C
> system with R12. If an R12 system needs to be evacuated to make a
> repair, it may not legally be refilled with R12.


I didn't know that. See the last sentence in my previous paragraph.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
134a Refrigerant Rich Hampel Jeep 1090 August 23rd 05 06:43 AM
A/C pipe leaking freon HND Honda 12 July 25th 05 07:52 PM
A/C problem MPClark Jeep 18 July 2nd 05 12:32 AM
Help: Recharging AC on 96 G Voyager SE The White Family Chrysler 6 June 2nd 05 08:39 PM
'89 Corolla running hot on highway (and other problems) [email protected] Technology 4 February 6th 05 08:53 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.