Worth Paying for one more rotation?

On 06/21/2011 05:45 AM, Tegger wrote:
> "Elmo P. > wrote in news:elmop-
> :
>
>> In >,
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>
>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>
>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>
>
>
> jim says that the reason you shouldn't rotate tires is because of
> temporarily-reduced contact patch when the tires change positions. And this
> is perfectly true.
>
> It's also true that if you never rotate your tires, you will maintain
> maximal contact patch through out the tires' life. For race cars, or road-
> going performance-cars such as BMWs, this is important when approaching the
> limits of the cars' capabilities.
>
> Unfortunately, maintaining maximal contact-patch has a tradeoff: shorter
> usable tire life.

only if you toss the whole set when one axle's tires are done.
"rotation" simply averages the wear rate over all the tires at the same
time. if tires remain in one station, their wear rate for each station
is still exactly the same [higher in fact since individual blocks get
stressed more after a change], they're just not averaged over the set.


> Without rotation, the portions of the tread that wear
> most will reach their wear-limit more quickly than if the tires had been
> subject to different wear-patterns regularly.
>
> Does the temporarily-reduced contact-patch make any real difference to the
> handling and safety of daily-driver Hondas that are driven the way most
> people drive them? I don't think so. I think most people appreciate getting
> the longest life they can out of their Honda's tires, and are unlikely to
> drive their Hondas the way race cars are driven.
>
>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 06/21/2011 07:25 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 06/21/2011 05:45 AM, Tegger wrote:
>> "Elmo P. > wrote in news:elmop-
>> :
>>
>>> In >,
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>>
>>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>>
>>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>>
>>
>>
>> jim says that the reason you shouldn't rotate tires is because of
>> temporarily-reduced contact patch when the tires change positions. And
>> this
>> is perfectly true.
>>
>> It's also true that if you never rotate your tires, you will maintain
>> maximal contact patch through out the tires' life. For race cars, or
>> road-
>> going performance-cars such as BMWs, this is important when
>> approaching the
>> limits of the cars' capabilities.
>>
>> Unfortunately, maintaining maximal contact-patch has a tradeoff: shorter
>> usable tire life.
>
> only if you toss the whole set when one axle's tires are done.
> "rotation" simply averages the wear rate over all the tires at the same
> time. if tires remain in one station, their wear rate for each station
> is still exactly the same [higher in fact since individual blocks get
> stressed more after a change], they're just not averaged over the set.
>
>
>> Without rotation, the portions of the tread that wear
>> most will reach their wear-limit more quickly than if the tires had been
>> subject to different wear-patterns regularly.
>>
>> Does the temporarily-reduced contact-patch make any real difference to
>> the
>> handling and safety of daily-driver Hondas that are driven the way most
>> people drive them? I don't think so. I think most people appreciate
>> getting
>> the longest life they can out of their Honda's tires, and are unlikely to
>> drive their Hondas the way race cars are driven.

forgot: this "longer life" mantra is a fundamental misconception. wear
rate is the same, it's merely averaged over more tires. that is /not/
"longer life".


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Paladin > wrote in
:


>
> Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
> now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
> contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...



And if you haven't rotated your tires, you're enjoying maximum contact
patch on those two! Good for a few more MPH, for sure.


--
Tegger

On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In >,
> > wrote:
>
>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>
> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
> same reasons jim outlines.
>
> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.


Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.

On 06/21/2011 07:51 AM, Tegger wrote:
> > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>
>> Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
>> now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
>> contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...
>
>
>
> And if you haven't rotated your tires, you're enjoying maximum contact
> patch on those two! Good for a few more MPH, for sure.
>
>

why do people trivialize this? traction is a safety thing much more
than a "racing" thing. doesn't anyone want to /not/ rear-end the car
that can stop faster than you?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

jim beam > wrote in
t:

> On 06/21/2011 07:51 AM, Tegger wrote:
>> > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
>>> now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
>>> contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...
>>
>>
>>
>> And if you haven't rotated your tires, you're enjoying maximum contact
>> patch on those two! Good for a few more MPH, for sure.
>>
>>
>
> why do people trivialize this? traction is a safety thing much more
> than a "racing" thing. doesn't anyone want to /not/ rear-end the car
> that can stop faster than you?
>
>


I think you're overreacting just a little bit.


--
Tegger

News > wrote in news:y72dnT1-
:

> On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In >,
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>
>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>
>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>
>
> Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
>
>
>



I'm guessing BMW is expecting its owners to take their cars to 10/10ths
regularly. Few daily-driver Honda owners would do that unless they're young
and/or ricers. And when you're that close to the limit, inexperience and
incompetence is more likely to result in crashes than some small and
temporary reduction in contact-patch.

--
Tegger

I'm with you, I'll rotate the tires.

"Tegger" wrote in message ...

News > wrote in news:y72dnT1-
:

> On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In >,
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>
>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>
>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>
>
> Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
>
>
>



I'm guessing BMW is expecting its owners to take their cars to 10/10ths
regularly. Few daily-driver Honda owners would do that unless they're young
and/or ricers. And when you're that close to the limit, inexperience and
incompetence is more likely to result in crashes than some small and
temporary reduction in contact-patch.

--
Tegger

On 06/21/2011 09:22 AM, Tegger wrote:
> > wrote in news:y72dnT1-
> :
>
>> On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In >,
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>>
>>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>>
>>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>>
>>
>> Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> I'm guessing BMW is expecting its owners to take their cars to 10/10ths
> regularly.

b.s. bmw's break if you actually /do/ drive them hard. ask my buddy
with the m3 and three new subframes.


> Few daily-driver Honda owners would do that unless they're young
> and/or ricers. And when you're that close to the limit, inexperience and
> incompetence is more likely to result in crashes than some small and
> temporary reduction in contact-patch.

the factor common to all drivers, irrespective of "inexperience" or
"incompetence" is emergency braking. and with abs control, driver
competence is simply not a factor.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Good luck on a stagger-shod BMW.


On 6/21/2011 12:26 PM, Bluto wrote:

> I'm with you, I'll rotate the tires.
>
> "Tegger" wrote in message ...
>
> News > wrote in news:y72dnT1-
> :
>
>> On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In >,
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>>
>>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>>
>>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>>
>>
>> Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> I'm guessing BMW is expecting its owners to take their cars to 10/10ths
> regularly. Few daily-driver Honda owners would do that unless they're young
> and/or ricers. And when you're that close to the limit, inexperience and
> incompetence is more likely to result in crashes than some small and
> temporary reduction in contact-patch.
>