Dying for a Chevy Volt, but....

> wrote in message
...
>
> They have a place. Around here (well, not actually in the town I
> live
> in) many drive golf carts. The grocery stores all have cart spaces
> (closer than the handicapped spaces). Even the high school has a
> golf
> cart parking lot (cart driving age is 14). As a car replacement,
> it's
> a stupid idea.

But a golf cart saves many hundreds of dollars a year by not requiring
registration and insurance, which can destroy the savings potential of
having a second limited-range electric car. They solve a problem that
is social rather than a technical.

On 2/24/2013 8:25 AM, Frank wrote:
> On 2/24/2013 5:52 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
>> Awl --
>>
>> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the
>> purchase of
>> one, but bleeve, it's hard.
>> I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt
>> would
>> proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>>
>> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>>
>> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
>> At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>>
>> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
>> Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you
>> about c per
>> kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
>> you actually wrote on your check. Around NYC, that seems to be about
>> 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>>
>> So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to
>> charge
>> it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
>> If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
>> If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
>> Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per
>> mile in
>> gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> WTF??
>>
>> You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>>
>> Now, it gets worse:
>> There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
>> It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it
>> will
>> take proly 20% more.
>>
>> So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article
>> suggests
>> that it does not
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/au...ewanted=1&_r=0
>>
>> )
>>
>> factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $
>> per
>> mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>>
>> Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss.
>> loses
>> badly.
>>
>>
>> So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other
>> factors,
>> is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>>
>> YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
>> around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost
>> of a 30
>> mpg vehicle..
>> But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as
>> gas,
>> and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... What gives??
>>
>> Holy ****.... there goes my Volt....
>>
>> Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
>> deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
>> made a mistake somewhere.
>>
>> Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... and I
>> would
>> repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. At a
>> TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above
>> electric
>> costs by FIVE.
>> But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places,
>> like
>> CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>>
>> AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
>> electrics.
>>
>> Idears?? Opinions?
>>
>
> Did the math myself.
> Hybrids are good for those that drive over maybe 20,000 miles per year.
> For the bulk of us, they cost more. For those that think it is worth
> the cost of conservation, hidden costs have not been considered like
> mining the battery material, and these are often environmentally
> unfriendly.
> When Prius first came out, I looked up cost of battery replacement and
> figured after warranty ran out and batteries needed replacement you
> might as well junk the car for what it was worth.

I don't know about the hidden cost but, the Prius battery is under
warranty for 100k miles, IIRC.

Here is a interesting article about the life of the battery.

http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/...y-as-you-think

http://tinyurl.com/b6rvkws

We had a Prius for about 50k miles. Great car with great mileage. We
sold it to my niece who loves it too. My wife bought a Sonata Hybrid.
Nice car, but expensive and doesn't get as the gas mileage of the Prius.
Personally, I'd have kept the Prius but it is important to find a good
mechanic to do any repairs. The dealer will soak you. Fortunately I know
a guy that used to work for Toyota and does repairs for a fraction of
what the dealer will. Not that it needed many repairs. The video display
went out and the replacement cost at the dealer was outrageous. I ended
up paying less than $275 for a used display. I think my guy charged me
about $25 to do the replacement. To do the repair at the dealer would
have cost around $5000.

> wrote in message
...
On Feb 24, 10:21 am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Feb 24, 5:52 am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Awl --
>
> > After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase
> > of
> > one, but bleeve, it's hard.
> > I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt
> > would
> > proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>
> > Now, about those electricity costs.....
>
> > If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
> > At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>
> > Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
> > Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c
> > per
> > kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
> > you actually wrote on your check.
>
> That isn't the correct way of doing the calculation. What
> you want to find is the INCREMENTAL cost of charging a
> car. That could be lower or higher than the rate with your
> method. For example if you have a monthly fixed charge
> of $25, you're paying that regardless of the car and it
> should not be attributed to the car. And if you're
> in an area where rates escalate if you exceed a certain
> amount, then you're going to pay more for the car
> charging than shown by your method.
> ================================================== ==
>
> Absolutely. That's why I left the calc as it was.
> Some places have, like, a 5c/kWhr rate, which quickly escalates to
> 50c/kWhr.
> Iirc, CA goes up to pert near $1/kWhr.....!!!!
>
> So my calcs are likely, and were intended to be, a BEST CASE scenario for
> electrics, given the tier structure of most utility rates. And draconian
> tier structure in some, or mebbe most.

Yeah, if as I said, you're not paying some $50 a month
"connection fee" or similar. If you are, then you've overestimated
the cost of charging an electric car.


>
> > Around NYC, that seems to be about
> > 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>
> Could be. Here in NJ it's been around 15c to 17c.
>
>
>
> > So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to
> > charge
> > it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
> > If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
> > If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
> > Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per mile
> > in
> > gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > WTF??
>
> The Tesla is a performance car that does 0 to 60 in like
> 4 secs.
> ===========================================
>
> They expanded their line beyond the original sports car.
> All electrics are fast-ish to very fast off the block. The Tesla's are
> esp.
> fast.
>

Which was my point. I don't know how their technology choices
for a high-end $100K+ performance car effects their use of
electricity. So, Tesla is not a car I'd focus on when there are
other, more mainstream cars.




>
> But, as I mentioned to Frank, I knew electrics "failed" from an *overall*
> cost analysis, mostly due to initial cost, battery cost, and to some
> extent,
> electric cost.
>
> I had no idea they would fail *from the gitgo* on electric cost alone!!!!!
>
> Which makes those 100 MPGe claims utter fraud.

As I said, instead of winging it on assumptions and purely theoretical
calculations, it would be better to find some real, measured data:

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...o-operate.html

"The pure electric Nissan Leaf costs just 3.5 cents a mile based on
the national average of 11 cents/kWh of electricity. That’s less than
half of what it costs to drive the most fuel-efficient four-door car
we’ve tested, the Toyota Prius. (This calculation doesn’t include
other costs such as maintenance or depreciation. But maintenance on an
electric car is theoretically miniscule compared with gasoline cars.
And depreciation is unknown for such a new technology.)

The Chevrolet Volt, which runs on electricity for the first 35 miles,
is heavier and therefore costs a little more to run—about 3.8 cents
per mile on electricity. "

Even allowing for 2X electric rates, if what CR is saying is correct,
the electric cars still cost substantially less per mile than using
gas. Not enough to make up for all the other drawbacks though,
but not nearly as bad as you claim either. I'm sure there is plenty
more real world data out there. It's not like these cars have not
been thoroughly reviewed, analyzed, tested....
================================================== =================

OK, that's fine.
But you are assuming THEY calc'd it correctly. Is that 11c REAL WORLD
electric rates, or some bull**** avg of what utilities CLAIM they charge?

And let me tell you sumpn about CR -- I luv'em, but they are often totally
in the clouds when it comes to basic math, science. Sometime back, they
made the claim that trampolining can burn as many calories as running.
Since their corp hq are right by me, I offered to take them running in a
local park, to see just how absurd that statement was.
Heh, they didn't call back.

But back to the point:
Even at 11c, which when all is said and done would be half of my calcs,
that is still a range of 5-10c per mile, and if it is indeed the 10c, that's
perilously close to the 13c of a (mere) 30 mpg gas car.

The fact that CR did not give a RANGE of costs per mile, AND are calculating
dat **** to the TENTH of a mile on top of it all, indicates that they do not
understand statistics or plain ole "significant figures" -- which is beyond
the likes of krw, but shouldn't be beyond CR. But then they think
trampolining burns boucou calories..... go figger.

And,. btw, my calcs are not "winging it".... they are (likely) a BEST CASE
SCENARIO for electrics. **** just gets worse in the real world.
As my calcs show, CR is WAAAY off, even accounting for cheaper electric
rates. kWhrs is kWhrs.... If you have a 50 kWhr battery, it's HS math to
figger out the *minimum* it will cost to charge it up.

Which dudn't mean I haven't made a mistake..... but show me the error in MY
calcs, before you go off lauditing CR....
--
EA




>
> I wonder if ALL Li-Ion car batteries "brick" or greatly shorten lifespan
> on
> total discharge. I'm assuming virtually all car batts ARE Li-Ion??
> Ackshooly, the Pruis may use nickel-hydride batts, but the same discharge
> princ. may apply.

The problem is particular to the high performance batteries
Tesla uses, AFAIK.

"Existential Angst" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Feb 24, 10:21 am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> On Feb 24, 5:52 am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Awl --
>>
>> > After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the
>> > purchase
>> > of
>> > one, but bleeve, it's hard.
>> > I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt
>> > would
>> > proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>>
>> > Now, about those electricity costs.....
>>
>> > If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
>> > At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>>
>> > Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
>> > Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c
>> > per
>> > kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into
>> > what
>> > you actually wrote on your check.
>>
>> That isn't the correct way of doing the calculation. What
>> you want to find is the INCREMENTAL cost of charging a
>> car. That could be lower or higher than the rate with your
>> method. For example if you have a monthly fixed charge
>> of $25, you're paying that regardless of the car and it
>> should not be attributed to the car. And if you're
>> in an area where rates escalate if you exceed a certain
>> amount, then you're going to pay more for the car
>> charging than shown by your method.
>> ================================================== ==
>>
>> Absolutely. That's why I left the calc as it was.
>> Some places have, like, a 5c/kWhr rate, which quickly escalates to
>> 50c/kWhr.
>> Iirc, CA goes up to pert near $1/kWhr.....!!!!
>>
>> So my calcs are likely, and were intended to be, a BEST CASE scenario for
>> electrics, given the tier structure of most utility rates. And draconian
>> tier structure in some, or mebbe most.
>
> Yeah, if as I said, you're not paying some $50 a month
> "connection fee" or similar. If you are, then you've overestimated
> the cost of charging an electric car.
>
>
>>
>> > Around NYC, that seems to be about
>> > 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>>
>> Could be. Here in NJ it's been around 15c to 17c.
>>
>>
>>
>> > So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to
>> > charge
>> > it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
>> > If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
>> > If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
>> > Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per mile
>> > in
>> > gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> > WTF??
>>
>> The Tesla is a performance car that does 0 to 60 in like
>> 4 secs.
>> ===========================================
>>
>> They expanded their line beyond the original sports car.
>> All electrics are fast-ish to very fast off the block. The Tesla's are
>> esp.
>> fast.
>>
>
> Which was my point. I don't know how their technology choices
> for a high-end $100K+ performance car effects their use of
> electricity. So, Tesla is not a car I'd focus on when there are
> other, more mainstream cars.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> But, as I mentioned to Frank, I knew electrics "failed" from an *overall*
>> cost analysis, mostly due to initial cost, battery cost, and to some
>> extent,
>> electric cost.
>>
>> I had no idea they would fail *from the gitgo* on electric cost
>> alone!!!!!
>>
>> Which makes those 100 MPGe claims utter fraud.
>
> As I said, instead of winging it on assumptions and purely theoretical
> calculations, it would be better to find some real, measured data:
>
> http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...o-operate.html
>
> "The pure electric Nissan Leaf costs just 3.5 cents a mile based on
> the national average of 11 cents/kWh of electricity. That's less than
> half of what it costs to drive the most fuel-efficient four-door car
> we've tested, the Toyota Prius. (This calculation doesn't include
> other costs such as maintenance or depreciation. But maintenance on an
> electric car is theoretically miniscule compared with gasoline cars.
> And depreciation is unknown for such a new technology.)
>
> The Chevrolet Volt, which runs on electricity for the first 35 miles,
> is heavier and therefore costs a little more to run-about 3.8 cents
> per mile on electricity. "
>
> Even allowing for 2X electric rates, if what CR is saying is correct,
> the electric cars still cost substantially less per mile than using
> gas. Not enough to make up for all the other drawbacks though,
> but not nearly as bad as you claim either. I'm sure there is plenty
> more real world data out there. It's not like these cars have not
> been thoroughly reviewed, analyzed, tested....
> ================================================== =================
>
> OK, that's fine.
> But you are assuming THEY calc'd it correctly. Is that 11c REAL WORLD
> electric rates, or some bull**** avg of what utilities CLAIM they charge?
>
> And let me tell you sumpn about CR -- I luv'em, but they are often totally
> in the clouds when it comes to basic math, science. Sometime back, they
> made the claim that trampolining can burn as many calories as running.
> Since their corp hq are right by me, I offered to take them running in a
> local park, to see just how absurd that statement was.
> Heh, they didn't call back.
>
> But back to the point:
> Even at 11c, which when all is said and done would be half of my calcs,
> that is still a range of 5-10c per mile, and if it is indeed the 10c,
> that's perilously close to the 13c of a (mere) 30 mpg gas car.
>
> The fact that CR did not give a RANGE of costs per mile, AND are
> calculating dat **** to the TENTH of a mile on top of it all, indicates
> that they do not understand statistics or plain ole "significant
> figures" -- which is beyond the likes of krw, but shouldn't be beyond CR.
> But then they think trampolining burns boucou calories..... go figger.
>
> And,. btw, my calcs are not "winging it".... they are (likely) a BEST
> CASE SCENARIO for electrics. **** just gets worse in the real world.
> As my calcs show, CR is WAAAY off, even accounting for cheaper electric
> rates. kWhrs is kWhrs.... If you have a 50 kWhr battery, it's HS math
> to figger out the *minimum* it will cost to charge it up.
>
> Which dudn't mean I haven't made a mistake..... but show me the error in
> MY calcs, before you go off lauditing CR....

Heh, mebbe CR winged it!!
Do you think they REALLY factored in the real cost of electricity, tiers and
all?
Do you think they took the article link I posted earlier
http://www.plugincars.com/real-world...-38-miles.html

into account?
Heh, they likely did just like they did with that trampoline fitness
bull****, massaged some press-released data,and forgot about the physics of
simple harmonic motion (springs).
And it's not the first time they've fallen conceptually short.
Still luv'em, but still.....

And dood, I'm HOPING I'm wrong!!! I still want my Volt...... but.....
--
EA




> --
> EA
>
>
>
>
>>
>> I wonder if ALL Li-Ion car batteries "brick" or greatly shorten lifespan
>> on
>> total discharge. I'm assuming virtually all car batts ARE Li-Ion??
>> Ackshooly, the Pruis may use nickel-hydride batts, but the same discharge
>> princ. may apply.
>
> The problem is particular to the high performance batteries
> Tesla uses, AFAIK.
>
>
>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 05:52:44 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> wrote:

>Around NYC, that seems to be about
>25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.

.... and guaranteed to get worse.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/williamp...ouble-by-2014/
Think of someone who lives in a flood zone and has been washed out
multiple times and is therefore working his ass off to convert his
house into a boat. My advice is to ask yourself how hard YOU want to
work in order to stay in the NYC area. ****, if NYC is good then why
not carry that thinking all the way and move to Hong Kong?

If you're genuinely stuck in a 'flood zone' then you have my sympathy.
Maybe you could stave off the doom by taking advantage of TOU rates.
Here are some samples and discussion.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-9152.html Summary: the
range of costs to fully charge a Volt (approximately the equivalent of
a gallon of fuel) is from about 30 cents to 3 dollars. Don't forget to
compare the 10 year projected cost increases for both fuel and
electricity. http://tinyurl.com/bys2rxm

This might also interest you.
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html TNSTAAFL, but
ass-penetration prevention has never been cheaper. My own plan is to
reach net-zero for under $20k plus some sweat equity.

> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:21:35 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> > wrote:
>
> wrote in message
...
>>On Feb 24, 5:52 am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>>> Awl --
>>>
>>> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase
>>> of
>>> one, but bleeve, it's hard.
>>> I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt
>>> would
>>> proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>>>
>>> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>>>
>>> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
>>> At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>>>
>>> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
>>> Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c
>>> per
>>> kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
>>> you actually wrote on your check.
>>
>>That isn't the correct way of doing the calculation. What
>>you want to find is the INCREMENTAL cost of charging a
>>car. That could be lower or higher than the rate with your
>>method. For example if you have a monthly fixed charge
>>of $25, you're paying that regardless of the car and it
>>should not be attributed to the car. And if you're
>>in an area where rates escalate if you exceed a certain
>>amount, then you're going to pay more for the car
>>charging than shown by your method.
>>================================================ ====
>>
>>Absolutely. That's why I left the calc as it was.
>>Some places have, like, a 5c/kWhr rate, which quickly escalates to
>>50c/kWhr.
>>Iirc, CA goes up to pert near $1/kWhr.....!!!!
>
> We all know you're a liar. Everyone got your message. You can stop
> posting now.
>
>>So my calcs are likely, and were intended to be, a BEST CASE scenario for
>>electrics, given the tier structure of most utility rates. And draconian
>>tier structure in some, or mebbe most.
>
> But you didn't use the incremental cost, so you didn't even accomplish
> that. IOW, more lies.

You don't need incremental cost per se.... too complicated to explain to
you, since you can't even follow a post.
I'm so dumb, you're so smart, yet you can't follow my calcs enough to point
out the """lies""".
Why is that?
Don't you have some family members you can abuse and berate?
--
EA





>
> <snipped impossible to follow posting technique>
>

On 2/24/2013 5:52 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
> Awl --
>
> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the
> purchase of one, but bleeve, it's hard. I figger my gas cost per year
> is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt would proly be $6,000
> year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>
> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>
> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
> At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>
> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery? Don't for a minute
> believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c per kWhr.... Do
> the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what you
> actually wrote on your check. Around NYC, that seems to be about
> 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>
> So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to
> charge it..... that's about $20 in electricity. If the Tesla gets
> 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile. If it only gets 100 miles,
> that's 20c/mile..... !!!! Split the diff, that's 15c/mile....
> MORE than what I'm paying per mile in gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> WTF??
>
> You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>
> Now, it gets worse: There's the ever-present thermodynamic
> kick-in-the-ass. It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85
> kWhr battery -- it will take proly 20% more.
>
> So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article
> suggests that it does not
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/au...ewanted=1&_r=0
>
>
)
>
> factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in
> $ per mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>
> Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss.
> loses badly.
>
>
> So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other
> factors, is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>
> YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics,
> typically around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3
> the cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.. But my calcs show that an electric
> will be *at least* as expensive as gas, and likely considerably more
> than gas, as a fuel.... What gives??
>
> Holy ****.... there goes my Volt....
>
> Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
> deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable.
> Unless I made a mistake somewhere.
>
> Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... and I
> would repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY
> is. At a TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all
> the above electric costs by FIVE. But I don't think anyone is really
> paying 5c, and quite a few places, like CA, pay MORE than NYS utility
> rates.
>
> AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition
> for electrics.
>
> Idears?? Opinions?
>

My PRIUS gets 52MPG in the summer, 46MPG in the winter (longer idle time
for the engine to warm up before turning off when not needed by the
hybrid system and I make a lot of short city driving trips. I get 52
MPG in the summer and about 46-48 MPG in the winter (longer initial idle
time in winter to warm up the engine before it turns itself off when not
needed by the hybrid system). The 10 gallon tank gives me a typical
cruising range of 480 - 500 miles. There is negligible difference in
mileage between city and highway driving. It cost me $4-5K more than a
gasoline only economy car that would get at best 38 MPG or so city
dirving. Over the expected life of the car (>7 yrs) and gas at least
$3.50/gal, I certainly expect to save money by the time I'm ready for my
next car. The emissions are fewer and less toxic than those produced by
our coal fired electric generating plants. Not a perfectly "green"
solution, but probably the best compromise currently available among
cost, convenience, and "green" considerations.

On Feb 24, 11:03*am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Feb 24, 10:21 am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Feb 24, 5:52 am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>
> > > Awl --
>
> > > After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase
> > > of
> > > one, but bleeve, it's hard.
> > > I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt
> > > would
> > > proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>
> > > Now, about those electricity costs.....
>
> > > If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
> > > At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>
> > > Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
> > > Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c
> > > per
> > > kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
> > > you actually wrote on your check.
>
> > That isn't the correct way of doing the calculation. What
> > you want to find is the INCREMENTAL cost of charging a
> > car. That could be lower or higher than the rate with your
> > method. For example if you have a monthly fixed charge
> > of $25, you're paying that regardless of the car and it
> > should not be attributed to the car. And if you're
> > in an area where rates escalate if you exceed a certain
> > amount, then you're going to pay more for the car
> > charging than shown by your method.
> > ================================================== ==
>
> > Absolutely. That's why I left the calc as it was.
> > Some places have, like, a 5c/kWhr rate, which quickly escalates to
> > 50c/kWhr.
> > Iirc, CA goes up to pert near $1/kWhr.....!!!!
>
> > So my calcs are likely, and were intended to be, a BEST CASE scenario for
> > electrics, given the tier structure of most utility rates. And draconian
> > tier structure in some, or mebbe most.
>
> Yeah, if as I said, you're not paying some $50 a month
> "connection fee" or similar. *If you are, then you've overestimated
> the cost of charging an electric car.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Around NYC, that seems to be about
> > > 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>
> > Could be. Here in NJ it's been around 15c to 17c.
>
> > > So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to
> > > charge
> > > it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
> > > If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
> > > If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
> > > Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per mile
> > > in
> > > gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > > WTF??
>
> > The Tesla is a performance car that does 0 to 60 in like
> > 4 secs.
> > ===========================================
>
> > They expanded their line beyond the original sports car.
> > All electrics are fast-ish to very fast off the block. The Tesla's are
> > esp.
> > fast.
>
> Which was my point. *I don't know how their technology choices
> for a high-end $100K+ performance car effects their use of
> electricity. *So, Tesla is not a car I'd focus on when there are
> other, more mainstream cars.
>
>
>
> > But, as I mentioned to Frank, I knew electrics "failed" from an *overall*
> > cost analysis, mostly due to initial cost, battery cost, and to some
> > extent,
> > electric cost.
>
> > I had no idea they would fail *from the gitgo* on electric cost alone!!!!!
>
> > Which makes those 100 MPGe claims utter fraud.
>
> As I said, instead of winging it on assumptions and purely theoretical
> calculations, *it would be better to find some real, measured data:
>
> http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...tests-show-ele...
>
> "The pure electric Nissan Leaf costs just 3.5 cents a mile based on
> the national average of 11 cents/kWh of electricity. That’s less than
> half of what it costs to drive the most fuel-efficient four-door car
> we’ve tested, the Toyota Prius. (This calculation doesn’t include
> other costs such as maintenance or depreciation. But maintenance on an
> electric car is theoretically miniscule compared with gasoline cars.
> And depreciation is unknown for such a new technology.)
>
> The Chevrolet Volt, which runs on electricity for the first 35 miles,
> is heavier and therefore costs a little more to run—about 3.8 cents
> per mile on electricity. "
>
> Even allowing for 2X electric rates, if what CR is saying is correct,
> the electric cars still cost substantially less per mile than using
> gas. *Not enough to make up for all the other drawbacks though,
> but not nearly as bad as you claim either. *I'm sure there is plenty
> more real world data out there. *It's not like these cars have not
> been thoroughly reviewed, analyzed, tested....
> ================================================== =================
>
> OK, that's fine.
> But you are assuming THEY calc'd it correctly. *Is that 11c REAL *WORLD
> electric rates, or some bull**** avg of what utilities CLAIM they charge?
>

Assuming they calculated what correctly? The Kwh it took to
charge the cars or the cost of the electricity? I would certainly
think CR Labs could meter the energy usage of the charger.
And they just gave the electric rate at 11c. Put in your own
rate, if you want. The point is even if the rate is double that,
ie 22c then those electric cars still have a substantial cost
per mile advantage over a conventional car. And most
people aren't payin 22c. NJ here has one of the highest
rates in the country and last month's bill it was 15c.



> And let me tell you sumpn about CR -- I luv'em, but they are often totally
> in the clouds when it comes to basic math, science.

But they ran actual tests, as opposed to your calculations
based on theoretical battery charging.

>Sometime back, they
> made the claim that trampolining can burn as many calories as running.
> Since their corp hq are right by me, I offered to take them running in a
> local park, to see just how absurd that statement was.
> Heh, they didn't call back.

I'll bet they aren't the first either.



>
> But back to the point:
> * *Even at 11c, which when all is said and done would be half of my calcs,
> that is still a range of 5-10c per mile, and if it is indeed the 10c, that's
> perilously close to the 13c of a (mere) 30 mpg gas car.

CR reported around 3.5 cents per mile with electricity at 11c/kwh

>
> The fact that CR did not give a RANGE of costs per mile, AND are calculating
> dat **** to the TENTH of a mile on top of it all, indicates that they do not
> understand statistics or plain ole "significant figures" -- which is beyond
> the likes of krw, but shouldn't be beyond CR. *But then they think
> trampolining burns boucou calories..... *go figger.

I'd say since they actually tested the cars and did real
measurements, they have a lot more credibility than
your musings based on theoreticals and assumptions.





>
> And,. btw, my calcs are not "winging it".... *they are (likely) a BEST CASE
> SCENARIO for electrics. ***** just gets worse in the real world.
> As my calcs show, CR is WAAAY off, even accounting for cheaper electric
> rates. *kWhrs is kWhrs.... * If you have a 50 kWhr battery, it's HS math to
> figger out the *minimum* it will cost to charge it up.
>
> Which dudn't mean I haven't made a mistake..... *but show me the error in MY
> calcs, before you go off lauditing CR....
> --
> EA
>

Look. I'm not lauding CR. I just did a bit of googling
and they popped up. They tested several electric cars. They
reported the results. They say that with electric at 11c/kwh, the
cars cost 3.5c a mile to run. That has a lot more credibility
than your theoretical musings based on battery capacity.
As I tried to explain to you, one thing your assuming is that the
full battery charge is depleted to go X miles. How about if
it's actually only 70%?

These cars have been out there and have been extensively
tested by all kinds of groups, not just CR I'm
sure you could find what RoadnTrack, Motortrend, Car/Driver,
etc have to say about equivalent fuel economy. Are you that
lazy that you'd rather continue pontificating on hypotheticals
instead of seeing real test data?

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:33:11 -0500, wrote:

>>
>>Absolutely. That's why I left the calc as it was.
>>Some places have, like, a 5c/kWhr rate, which quickly escalates to 50c/kWhr.
>>Iirc, CA goes up to pert near $1/kWhr.....!!!!
>
>We all know you're a liar. Everyone got your message. You can stop
>posting now.

I pay .30kwh here in California

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On 2/24/2013 11:02 AM, gonjah wrote:
> On 2/24/2013 8:25 AM, Frank wrote:
>> On 2/24/2013 5:52 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
>>> Awl --
>>>
>>> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the
>>> purchase of
>>> one, but bleeve, it's hard.
>>> I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt
>>> would
>>> proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>>>
>>> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>>>
>>> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
>>> At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>>>
>>> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
>>> Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you
>>> about c per
>>> kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into
>>> what
>>> you actually wrote on your check. Around NYC, that seems to be about
>>> 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>>>
>>> So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to
>>> charge
>>> it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
>>> If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
>>> If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
>>> Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per
>>> mile in
>>> gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> WTF??
>>>
>>> You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>>>
>>> Now, it gets worse:
>>> There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
>>> It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it
>>> will
>>> take proly 20% more.
>>>
>>> So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article
>>> suggests
>>> that it does not
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/au...ewanted=1&_r=0
>>>
>>>
>>> )
>>>
>>> factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $
>>> per
>>> mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>>>
>>> Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss.
>>> loses
>>> badly.
>>>
>>>
>>> So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other
>>> factors,
>>> is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>>>
>>> YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics,
>>> typically
>>> around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost
>>> of a 30
>>> mpg vehicle..
>>> But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as
>>> gas,
>>> and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... What gives??
>>>
>>> Holy ****.... there goes my Volt....
>>>
>>> Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
>>> deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
>>> made a mistake somewhere.
>>>
>>> Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... and I
>>> would
>>> repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. At a
>>> TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above
>>> electric
>>> costs by FIVE.
>>> But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places,
>>> like
>>> CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>>>
>>> AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
>>> electrics.
>>>
>>> Idears?? Opinions?
>>>
>>
>> Did the math myself.
>> Hybrids are good for those that drive over maybe 20,000 miles per year.
>> For the bulk of us, they cost more. For those that think it is worth
>> the cost of conservation, hidden costs have not been considered like
>> mining the battery material, and these are often environmentally
>> unfriendly.
>> When Prius first came out, I looked up cost of battery replacement and
>> figured after warranty ran out and batteries needed replacement you
>> might as well junk the car for what it was worth.
>
> I don't know about the hidden cost but, the Prius battery is under
> warranty for 100k miles, IIRC.
>
> Here is a interesting article about the life of the battery.
>
> http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/...y-as-you-think
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/b6rvkws
>
> We had a Prius for about 50k miles. Great car with great mileage. We
> sold it to my niece who loves it too. My wife bought a Sonata Hybrid.
> Nice car, but expensive and doesn't get as the gas mileage of the Prius.
> Personally, I'd have kept the Prius but it is important to find a good
> mechanic to do any repairs. The dealer will soak you. Fortunately I know
> a guy that used to work for Toyota and does repairs for a fraction of
> what the dealer will. Not that it needed many repairs. The video display
> went out and the replacement cost at the dealer was outrageous. I ended
> up paying less than $275 for a used display. I think my guy charged me
> about $25 to do the replacement. To do the repair at the dealer would
> have cost around $5000.


Might have been over 10 years when I googled battery replacement and I
recalled 7,000 Australian dollars. Still a lot of money today.
Doing cost of car repair, if repair exceeds Blue Book value is is time
to trade in the car.

I'm retired and both wife and I only put about 6,000 miles per year on
our cars. We'd be wasting money on hybrids.

OP's calculation based on electricity cost - I haven't done it but our
electricity is expensive in part due to Democratic administrations that
put green energy programs on the backs of electricity consumers.