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alternator circuit question



 
 
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  #31  
Old November 19th 04, 11:21 PM
exxos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, exxos wrote:
>
>> I had a problem with one of my cars in the past with the alternator not
>> charging, what this turned out to be was the ground pin on the regulator
>> was going via a lamp on the dashboard, thus giveing a slight volt raise
>> on the ground so you got maybe 13V from the 12V regulator, though it
>> took me a long time to work out why my battery wouldn't charge, turns
>> out the bulb went on the dashboard, no ground on the regulator,
>> alternator didn't charge the battery, thus car wouldn't start....

>
> Fun story, but not applicable to the original poster's '91 Acclaim -- not
> even a little bit. Also, "12v" automotive voltage regulators have set
> points of between 13.8 and 15.1 volts. A regulator with a set point of 12v
> would not charge the battery.


I was suggesting that simple faults can make things look like sometime which
they are not, and yes you are correct 12V wont charge the battery, the OP
had alternator problems which im pretty sure I gave some suggestions towards
a possible cure. 12V regulators do exsist, like my old car raised to around
13V via the resistance in the dash lamp, the OP has a valuable new view
point on his problem to which I replied.

chris



Ads
  #32  
Old November 19th 04, 11:26 PM
exxos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many a
> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no charge
> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM



assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it would
light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about 13V....so
much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)

chris





> "exxos" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jon G." > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>> >I have a 91 Plymouth Acclaim, and the alternator doesn't charge the
>> >battery. I took the alternator out and had it tested, and there's

> nothing
>> >wrong with it. I put a new battery in it, but it still won't charge. I
>> >checked the fuseable link from the alternator to the battery, and there

> is
>> >continuity. Therefore, it must be the computer.
>> >
>> > there are 4 connections on the alternator
>> >
>> > L1: direct to battery, positive
>> > L2: direct to battery, negative
>> > c1: small wire, logic, to computer, activates diode
>> > c2: small wire, logic, to computer, also battery ground.
>> >
>> > I want to activate the alternator continuously and put on an external
>> > voltage regulator.
>> >
>> > What must the voltage (and current), to the logic inputs c1 & c2 be to

> do
>> > so?
>> >
>> > I have in mind to run a potentiometer between L1 and c1, and adjust it
>> > until the alternator kicks on.
>> >
>> > The schematic shows that c1 goes to the coil of a transformer in the
>> > alternator, which then goes to one of the diodes (an SCR?)

>>
>>
>> I had a problem with one of my cars in the past with the alternator not
>> charging, what this turned out to be was the ground pin on the regulator

> was
>> going via a lamp on the dashboard, thus giveing a slight volt raise on
>> the
>> ground so you got maybe 13V from the 12V regulator, though it took me a

> long
>> time to work out why my battery wouldn't charge, turns out the bulb went

> on
>> the dashboard, no ground on the regulator, alternator didn't charge the
>> battery, thus car wouldn't start.... strange how a small item such as a
>> dashboard light can stop the car from starting ;-)
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>
>



  #33  
Old November 19th 04, 11:26 PM
exxos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many a
> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no charge
> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM



assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it would
light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about 13V....so
much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)

chris





> "exxos" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jon G." > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>> >I have a 91 Plymouth Acclaim, and the alternator doesn't charge the
>> >battery. I took the alternator out and had it tested, and there's

> nothing
>> >wrong with it. I put a new battery in it, but it still won't charge. I
>> >checked the fuseable link from the alternator to the battery, and there

> is
>> >continuity. Therefore, it must be the computer.
>> >
>> > there are 4 connections on the alternator
>> >
>> > L1: direct to battery, positive
>> > L2: direct to battery, negative
>> > c1: small wire, logic, to computer, activates diode
>> > c2: small wire, logic, to computer, also battery ground.
>> >
>> > I want to activate the alternator continuously and put on an external
>> > voltage regulator.
>> >
>> > What must the voltage (and current), to the logic inputs c1 & c2 be to

> do
>> > so?
>> >
>> > I have in mind to run a potentiometer between L1 and c1, and adjust it
>> > until the alternator kicks on.
>> >
>> > The schematic shows that c1 goes to the coil of a transformer in the
>> > alternator, which then goes to one of the diodes (an SCR?)

>>
>>
>> I had a problem with one of my cars in the past with the alternator not
>> charging, what this turned out to be was the ground pin on the regulator

> was
>> going via a lamp on the dashboard, thus giveing a slight volt raise on
>> the
>> ground so you got maybe 13V from the 12V regulator, though it took me a

> long
>> time to work out why my battery wouldn't charge, turns out the bulb went

> on
>> the dashboard, no ground on the regulator, alternator didn't charge the
>> battery, thus car wouldn't start.... strange how a small item such as a
>> dashboard light can stop the car from starting ;-)
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>
>



  #34  
Old November 19th 04, 11:58 PM
Jim Thompson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:

>
>"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
>> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many a
>> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no charge
>> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM

>
>
>assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
>"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it would
>light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
>its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
>19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about 13V....so
>much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
>
>chris
>
>

[snip]

I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
(mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #35  
Old November 19th 04, 11:58 PM
Jim Thompson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:

>
>"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
>> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many a
>> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no charge
>> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM

>
>
>assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
>"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it would
>light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
>its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
>19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about 13V....so
>much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
>
>chris
>
>

[snip]

I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
(mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #36  
Old November 20th 04, 12:33 AM
exxos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jim Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>>>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
>>> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many
>>> a
>>> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no
>>> charge
>>> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM

>>
>>
>>assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
>>"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it
>>would
>>light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
>>its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
>>19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about
>>13V....so
>>much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
>>
>>chris
>>
>>

> [snip]
>
> I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
> (mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
> idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
> indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.



It was in the ground, I actually grounded the point instead of going via the
lamp, battery only got around 11V on it though at least it proved the point.
It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground ref,
hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.

Chris






>
> ...Jim Thompson
> --
> | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
> | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
> | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
> | Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
> | E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
> | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
>
> I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  #37  
Old November 20th 04, 12:33 AM
exxos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jim Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>>>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
>>> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many
>>> a
>>> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no
>>> charge
>>> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM

>>
>>
>>assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
>>"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it
>>would
>>light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
>>its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
>>19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about
>>13V....so
>>much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
>>
>>chris
>>
>>

> [snip]
>
> I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
> (mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
> idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
> indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.



It was in the ground, I actually grounded the point instead of going via the
lamp, battery only got around 11V on it though at least it proved the point.
It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground ref,
hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.

Chris






>
> ...Jim Thompson
> --
> | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
> | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
> | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
> | Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
> | E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
> | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
>
> I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  #38  
Old November 20th 04, 01:00 AM
Jim Thompson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:33:13 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:

>
>"Jim Thompson" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>>>>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
>>>> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many
>>>> a
>>>> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no
>>>> charge
>>>> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM
>>>
>>>
>>>assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
>>>"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it
>>>would
>>>light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
>>>its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
>>>19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about
>>>13V....so
>>>much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
>>>
>>>chris
>>>
>>>

>> [snip]
>>
>> I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
>> (mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
>> idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
>> indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.

>
>
>It was in the ground, I actually grounded the point instead of going via the
>lamp, battery only got around 11V on it though at least it proved the point.
>It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
>even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground ref,
>hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
>tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
>equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.
>
>Chris
>


What brand of car? Yugo ?:-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #39  
Old November 20th 04, 01:00 AM
Jim Thompson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:33:13 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:

>
>"Jim Thompson" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>>>>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
>>>> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many
>>>> a
>>>> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no
>>>> charge
>>>> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM
>>>
>>>
>>>assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
>>>"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it
>>>would
>>>light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
>>>its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
>>>19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about
>>>13V....so
>>>much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
>>>
>>>chris
>>>
>>>

>> [snip]
>>
>> I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
>> (mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
>> idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
>> indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.

>
>
>It was in the ground, I actually grounded the point instead of going via the
>lamp, battery only got around 11V on it though at least it proved the point.
>It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
>even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground ref,
>hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
>tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
>equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.
>
>Chris
>


What brand of car? Yugo ?:-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #40  
Old November 20th 04, 09:34 AM
exxos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jim Thompson" > wrote in message
news
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:33:13 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jim Thompson" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
>>>>> regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed,
>>>>> many
>>>>> a
>>>>> times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no
>>>>> charge
>>>>> condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car
>>>>diagnostic
>>>>"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it
>>>>would
>>>>light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point
>>>>in
>>>>its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
>>>>19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about
>>>>13V....so
>>>>much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
>>>>
>>>>chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
>>> (mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
>>> idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
>>> indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.

>>
>>
>>It was in the ground, I actually grounded the point instead of going via
>>the
>>lamp, battery only got around 11V on it though at least it proved the
>>point.
>>It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
>>even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground
>>ref,
>>hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
>>tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
>>equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.
>>
>>Chris
>>

>
> What brand of car? Yugo ?:-)


Citroen (SP?) did well lasted a long time, have a reno now, exloded last
week, ah off topic again....

Chris




>
> ...Jim Thompson
> --
> | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
> | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
> | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
> | Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
> | E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
> | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
>
> I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



 




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