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Who Killed the Electric Car? (big battery did)
In article >, SnoMan > wrote:
>Also the average rate >for electricity is over 10 cent a KW so it would cost about 15 bucks >to charge it or more (likely a lot more) How do you figure that? At 10 cents / kwh, 100 kwh costs ten bucks. At fifteen cents, 15 bucks. To be "a lot more" than $15, you'd need to be paying "a lot more" than 15 cents / kwh for your electricity. Maybe you are. I'm not. >As a comparison there is the >equivlant of about 38KW in a gallon of gas. And as an even better comparison, that $10-15 for 200 miles worth of electricity works out to five to seven and a half cents a mile. In a car that gets 30 mpg, it takes 6 2/3 gallons to go 200 miles. At $2.25 / gallon, that's $15, or -- you guessed it -- seven and a half cents a mile. Obviously, if the price of gas continue to increase, it will cost more, "likely a lot more". As far as I'm concerned, with the costs being roughly equal, I'd much rather power my commute with electricity that's generated by burning American coal, than by burning gasoline that comes from imported oil. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
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Who Killed the Electric Car? (big battery did)
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#13
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Who Killed the Electric Car? (big battery did)
In article >, SnoMan > wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:30:04 GMT, (Doug Miller) >wrote: > >>In article >, SnoMan > > wrote: >> >>>Also the average rate >>>for electricity is over 10 cent a KW so it would cost about 15 bucks >>>to charge it or more (likely a lot more) >> >>How do you figure that? At 10 cents / kwh, 100 kwh costs ten bucks. At fifteen > >>cents, 15 bucks. To be "a lot more" than $15, you'd need to be paying "a lot >>more" than 15 cents / kwh for your electricity. Maybe you are. I'm not. > >You left out efficency losses in charging and discharging batteries. No, I didn't -- because you already figured them into that 100KW estimate, remember? >It will take a lot more than 100KW for wall scoket to yeild 100 KW of >usable power from battery pack. Also check out you electric bill and >you will likely find that you are paying a lot more than 10 cent a KW. Guess again. >Plus if everyone starts doing this them power grids will be overloaded >and the upgrade will cost mega bucks which will equal higher electric >costs too Offset by lower gasoline bills... >> >>>As a comparison there is the >>>equivlant of about 38KW in a gallon of gas. >> >>And as an even better comparison, that $10-15 for 200 miles worth of >>electricity works out to five to seven and a half cents a mile. In a car that >>gets 30 mpg, it takes 6 2/3 gallons to go 200 miles. At $2.25 / gallon, that's >>$15, or -- you guessed it -- seven and a half cents a mile. Obviously, if the >>price of gas continue to increase, it will cost more, "likely a lot more". > > >In theory but then do not forget about battery pack replacement which >will set you back about 10 grand for a 100KW pac that may last 50K >miles or so in heavy usage which adds about 20 cnt a mile so it is now >27 cents a mile to drive or 54 dallrs for 200 miles verse 22.0 for >same distance with gas at 20 MPG ot 11.25 at 40 MPG. (BTW, at 40 MPG >gas is cheaper to drive just on energy cost alone and only take a few >minutes to recharge it with fuel) Entirely speculation on your part, and you ignore the cost of repairs and maintenance on gasoline-powered vehicles. >> >>As far as I'm concerned, with the costs being roughly equal, I'd much rather >>power my commute with electricity that's generated by burning American coal, >>than by burning gasoline that comes from imported oil. > >Not really because the invironmental cost are even worse because you >are shifting from one polution source to another. Last I heard coal >plants are about 35% efficent You need to get out more... -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
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Who Killed the Electric Car? (big battery did)
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:08:21 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote: >In article >, SnoMan > wrote: >>On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:30:04 GMT, (Doug Miller) >>wrote: >> >>>In article >, SnoMan >> > wrote: >>> >>>>Also the average rate >>>>for electricity is over 10 cent a KW so it would cost about 15 bucks >>>>to charge it or more (likely a lot more) >>> >>>How do you figure that? At 10 cents / kwh, 100 kwh costs ten bucks. At fifteen >> >>>cents, 15 bucks. To be "a lot more" than $15, you'd need to be paying "a lot >>>more" than 15 cents / kwh for your electricity. Maybe you are. I'm not. >> >>You left out efficency losses in charging and discharging batteries. > >No, I didn't -- because you already figured them into that 100KW estimate, >remember? Yes you did because I said 15 bucks to charge 100KW of usable energy in a battery pack at 10 cents a KW and you said 10 (100% efficent which it is not) >>It will take a lot more than 100KW for wall scoket to yeild 100 KW of >>usable power from battery pack. Also check out you electric bill and >>you will likely find that you are paying a lot more than 10 cent a KW. > >Guess again. Maybe you are not (I am not either) but a lot are paying this and more especailly in big cities were electric cars are most viable. > >>Plus if everyone starts doing this them power grids will be overloaded >>and the upgrade will cost mega bucks which will equal higher electric >>costs too > >Offset by lower gasoline bills... Nope, no money saved because it is far cheaper to drive a gas car that need no expensive battery pack replacement. Heck you can replace a conventional engine and tranny for less than a big battery pack >>> >>>>As a comparison there is the >>>>equivlant of about 38KW in a gallon of gas. >>> >>>And as an even better comparison, that $10-15 for 200 miles worth of >>>electricity works out to five to seven and a half cents a mile. In a car that >>>gets 30 mpg, it takes 6 2/3 gallons to go 200 miles. At $2.25 / gallon, that's >>>$15, or -- you guessed it -- seven and a half cents a mile. Obviously, if the >>>price of gas continue to increase, it will cost more, "likely a lot more". >> >> >>In theory but then do not forget about battery pack replacement which >>will set you back about 10 grand for a 100KW pac that may last 50K >>miles or so in heavy usage which adds about 20 cnt a mile so it is now >>27 cents a mile to drive or 54 dallrs for 200 miles verse 22.0 for >>same distance with gas at 20 MPG ot 11.25 at 40 MPG. (BTW, at 40 MPG >>gas is cheaper to drive just on energy cost alone and only take a few >>minutes to recharge it with fuel) > >Entirely speculation on your part, and you ignore the cost of repairs and >maintenance on gasoline-powered vehicles. No it does not, Most cars have a 50K or so warrenty and I have run a few car well past 200K with routine maintainance which I do myself. THe big battey pack will wear out and it will be VERY expensive to replace and it does factor in on operating cost. You might say sell car before you replace battery pack? Okay but then you will take a hosing on the sale because nobody is going to pay much for a electric car that has a battery pack at end of service life so you will loose your shirt. >>> >>>As far as I'm concerned, with the costs being roughly equal, I'd much rather >>>power my commute with electricity that's generated by burning American coal, >>>than by burning gasoline that comes from imported oil. >> >>Not really because the invironmental cost are even worse because you >>are shifting from one polution source to another. Last I heard coal >>plants are about 35% efficent > >You need to get out more... I think you do. I think you are one of those head in the sand looking for a magic cure that does not realize that for every cause their is a effect and we are killing our ecosystem and denial will not change it. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
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Who Killed the Electric Car? (big battery did)
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:42:13 -0500, BläBlä
. s!rcre4p.c0m> wrote: >If you are going to follow up on a snoball reply please take off the >extra RE's since he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Like you do??? you are pretty clueless about anything involving physics and science. YOu motto is if you cannot understand it, it must be wrong and ofciurse you do not even use a viable email with posts because you need to hide. Qucik throw some stones and duck behind fence so nobody knows you did it. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com |
#17
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Who Killed the Electric Car? (big battery did)
In article >, SnoMan > wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:08:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) >wrote: > >>In article >, SnoMan > > wrote: >>>On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:30:04 GMT, (Doug Miller) >>>wrote: >>> >>>>In article >, SnoMan >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>>Also the average rate >>>>>for electricity is over 10 cent a KW so it would cost about 15 bucks >>>>>to charge it or more (likely a lot more) >>>> >>>>How do you figure that? At 10 cents / kwh, 100 kwh costs ten bucks. At > fifteen >>> >>>>cents, 15 bucks. To be "a lot more" than $15, you'd need to be paying "a lot >>>>more" than 15 cents / kwh for your electricity. Maybe you are. I'm not. >>>You left out efficency losses in charging and discharging batteries. >> >>No, I didn't -- because you already figured them into that 100KW estimate, >>remember? > > Yes you did because I said 15 bucks to charge 100KW of usable >energy in a battery pack at 10 cents a KW and you said 10 (100% >efficent which it is not) Pay close attention he your figure of 100KW has the inefficiency built in already. Remainder snipped... you obviously don't want to hear anything contradicting your preconceptions. Bye. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#18
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Snoball
In article >,
John R Stan says... > On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 17:42:13 -0500, BläBlä > . s!rcre4p.c0m> wrote: > > >If you are going to follow up on a snoball reply please take off the > >extra RE's since he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. > > Like you do??? you are pretty clueless about anything involving > physics and science. YOu motto is if you cannot understand it, it must > be wrong and ofciurse you do not even use a viable email with posts > because you need to hide. Qucik throw some stones and duck behind > fence so nobody knows you did it. > ----------------- > TheHypoCrite.com Funny, with a little research one will find that's exactly what everybody everywhere says about you except with far fewer spelling errors. http://tinyurl.com/y4meay Do you honestly think people are too stupid to see you for what you are? You will find insults from a blatant hypocrite such as yourself have little effect on me. Personally I don't think its anyones business who I am or who anyone else here is. I couldnt care less about anyones identity here because it is not relevant to any discussions here. If anyone really needed to reach me they can ping me here because this is where I am a few times out of the week. Though from what I have seen you have yet to respond to a lot of repeated point blank questions in other groups. Odd considering your statement don't you think? Now if you really want "your" information up for everyone to see I can do that for you since from what I can see you aren't very willing to list any "real" personal information. This should be easy one for most to figure out - 39.9305 83.9696 You should be thankful I'm adding you back to my kill filter though if I find you mouthing off again I am going to visit some of these "other groups" you dart in and duck out of and strick up a chat with all those "friends" you've made. |
#19
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Who Killed the Electric Car? (big battery did)
In article >,
says... > In article >, SnoMan > wrote: > >On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:08:21 GMT, (Doug Miller) > >wrote: > > > >>In article >, SnoMan > > > wrote: > >>>On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:30:04 GMT, (Doug Miller) > >>>wrote: > >>> > >>>>In article >, SnoMan > >>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Also the average rate > >>>>>for electricity is over 10 cent a KW so it would cost about 15 bucks > >>>>>to charge it or more (likely a lot more) > >>>> > >>>>How do you figure that? At 10 cents / kwh, 100 kwh costs ten bucks. At > > fifteen > >>> > >>>>cents, 15 bucks. To be "a lot more" than $15, you'd need to be paying "a lot > >>>>more" than 15 cents / kwh for your electricity. Maybe you are. I'm not. > >>>You left out efficency losses in charging and discharging batteries. > >> > >>No, I didn't -- because you already figured them into that 100KW estimate, > >>remember? > > > > Yes you did because I said 15 bucks to charge 100KW of usable > >energy in a battery pack at 10 cents a KW and you said 10 (100% > >efficent which it is not) > > Pay close attention he your figure of 100KW has the inefficiency built in > already. > > Remainder snipped... you obviously don't want to hear anything contradicting > your preconceptions. > > Bye. Lol. Thats the way to do it. ;-) |
#20
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Who Killed the Electric Car? (big battery did)
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:59:57 GMT, SnoMan > wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 11:27:11 -0500, "marx404" > wrote: > >>Actually, the new technology will allow over 200 miles on a single charge, >>which with the new batteries will take only 6 hrs tops recharging time. > > >Maybe from a 230 volt charger drawing 100 amps which would exceed most >house panels. there is 728 watts in a HP at 100% efficency but for a >electric car figuring battery efficency losses and motor/controller >losses figure at least 1 KW charged in for 0ne HP out (it will likely >take more than this) This weans to produce say 100 HP to accelerate or >climba hill at speed you will be using energy at a rate of 100KW a >hour. When cruising you might get by on 20 to 25KW/hr running cars and >accessories. Again to go 200 miles your are in the 100KW batery >capacity range. A charge powered by 230 volt drawing 100 amps would >add abaout 20KW of energy a hours to batteries after efficency losses >in charger and battery will take about 90% of theat energy and convert >it to stored energy so about a 6 hr charge would be needed to charge a >100KW battery pack with a 23KW charger. ( as a comperison a dryer >draws about 5KW and a electric range with all burners on high and oven >on too can use about 8KW) A regular wall outlet can powr at most a 2KW >before efficency losses so it would take about 3 to 4 days to charge >it. People want to believe tha you can just plug car into a regular >outlet and drive bu the energy is not there. Also the average rate >for electricity is over 10 cent a KW so it would cost about 15 bucks >to charge it or more (likely a lot more) As a comparison there is the >equivlant of about 38KW in a gallon of gas. >----------------- >TheSnoMan.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle Production and conversion BEVs [Battery Electric Vehicles] using NIMH battery chemistry typically use 0.3 to 0.5 kilowatt-hours per mile (0.2 to 0.3 kWh/km). Nearly half of this power consumption is due to inefficiencies in charging the batteries: The manufacturer of the Li-ion Tesla reports usage of .215 kWh per mile. - end quote - I think it is wise to be at least as skeptical of BEV performance claims as for EPA mileage estimates. Using the upper end of the energy use claim, 0.5 kWH/mile, and a 40 mile range overnight charging at 120v should be barely possible. I would like to see someone really test the Tesla. Drive it like a sports car. I be after 20 miles it would be a hurtin' cowboy. A little misjudgment and you are going to be crawling home with grandma riding your ass in her Civic. |
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