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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in his truck ?
A friend and neighbor, who is a retired engineer and has knowledge and
experience with things mechanical, including cars, told me just now that he broke in his 1999 Ford 150 Lightning truck by changing the original factory oil at 1000 miles and then again at 2500 and then at 5000 and has kept to 5K, with synthetic, for changes since. I know that engines are machined to greater tolerances than those of 20 years ago, which then included a free dealer oil change at 500 miles to flush out the metal filings etc, but would you agree that it makes sense to use a break in sequence, such as this, at this time, with our new Toyota 4Runner - rather than the published approach, which is to just do nothing until 5k miles and then change to Synthetic, if I wished to ? I don't mind the extra expense, even the cost of synthetic, and filter changes, in exchange for any benefits that breaking in in a preferable way would provide, if they so exist. It is possible that such a break in sequence would be a bit too daunting or complex for non machine minded consumers and Toyota, although it might so prefer it this way, just leaves the change at 5K miles to simplify things. Thanks, Forrest |
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#2
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in his truck ?
Forrest Wrote: > A friend and neighbor, who is a retired engineer and has knowledge and > experience with things mechanical, including cars, told me just now > that he broke in his 1999 Ford 150 Lightning truck by changing the > original factory oil at 1000 miles and then again at 2500 and then at > 5000 and has kept to 5K, with synthetic, for changes since. > > I know that engines are machined to greater tolerances than those of > 20 years ago, which then included a free dealer oil change at 500 > miles to flush out the metal filings etc, but would you agree that it > makes sense to use a break in sequence, such as this, at this time, > with our new Toyota 4Runner - rather than the published approach, > which is to just do nothing until 5k miles and then change to > Synthetic, if I wished to ? > > I don't mind the extra expense, even the cost of synthetic, and filter > changes, in exchange for any benefits that breaking in in a preferable > way would provide, if they so exist. It is possible that such a break > in sequence would be a bit too daunting or complex for non machine > minded consumers and Toyota, although it might so prefer it this way, > just leaves the change at 5K miles to simplify things. > > Thanks, > > Forrest An American built, supercharged screamer like that Lightning, I could justify the extra cost/effort, just for piece of mind. The engine he has is known for oil control problems with higher mileage in naturally aspirated form, the supercharger's additional loading only exacerbates the problem...so yeah, if it was me, no amount of caution would be too much...with the standard Japanese worker bee engine, no need...just do you oil changes when reccommended, and you'll be fine. If you operate in normal conditions and do your service on time, synthetic doesn't really have a lot of tangible benefits. it is nice, however, to have some extra safety margin knowing that if you go over interval for a service, it's ok, or if you overheat, the oil isn't going to turn into plastic, etc...just depends on your comfort level...I find semi-syn blends to be a great alternative. Flow nice in the cold, comes out almost as clear as it went in, etc. Price is very likeable... -- jeffcoslacker ------------------------------------------------------------------------ jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=615647 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
#3
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in his truck ?
A lot of yes/no regarding use of synthetic oil, so it a hard call. But, I would foolow your friend's thinking by changing oil and filter at 1K, 2.5K, and again at 5K. It not expensive [meaning the oil changes], and they get rid of any flotsam and jetsam created by a new engine break-in period. -- Knifeblade_03 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Knifeblade_03's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=262826 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=615647 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
#4
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in his truck ?
"Forrest" > wrote in message ... > I know that engines are machined to greater tolerances than those of > 20 years ago, which then included a free dealer oil change at 500 > miles to flush out the metal filings etc, but would you agree that it > makes sense to use a break in sequence, such as this, at this time, > with our new Toyota 4Runner - rather than the published approach, > which is to just do nothing until 5k miles and then change to > Synthetic, if I wished to ? You wont get a consensus on this board when lubrication matters are the topic. We all have our habits and beliefs, and - no matter what anyone else says - you are pretty much on your own when it comes to oil change protocol. I prefer to err on the side of over fastidiousness. |
#5
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in his truck ?
Knifeblade_03 Wrote: > A lot of yes/no regarding use of synthetic oil, so it a hard call. But, > I would foolow your friend's thinking by changing oil and filter at 1K, > 2.5K, and again at 5K. It not expensive [meaning the oil changes], and > they get rid of any flotsam and jetsam created by a new engine break-in > period. Used to be there was a lot. Now there's none...nothing an oil filter can't deal with anyway. Back in the day, real fine finishing machining wasn't fast enough for production vehicles, and the final finish was achieved through friction, the main area being cylinder wall to ring seating...and other direct contact areas like pushrod to rocker contact and lifter/cam... But the surface prep on parts now is so good, usually the parts' surface is even better when new and unrun than it would be after a run-in period...therefore, no debris generated...techniques for controlling cleanliness of the assembly areas are also much improved... Had a friend buy a Civic Si a couple of years ago, and he was wondering the same thing, and was told by the service dept to run it normal for 500 miles and then drive it like you stole it..and go with the printed reccommendations for oil change intervals... 74,000 miles of his daily abuse, and it still uses less than 1/2 quart between changes, same as when it was new. -- jeffcoslacker ------------------------------------------------------------------------ jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=615647 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
#6
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in his truck ?
Forrest wrote: > A friend and neighbor, who is a retired engineer and has knowledge and > experience with things mechanical, including cars, told me just now > that he broke in his 1999 Ford 150 Lightning truck by changing the > original factory oil at 1000 miles and then again at 2500 and then at > 5000 and has kept to 5K, with synthetic, for changes since. I think your friend did everything possible to insure that the engine will have a long life. 5K increments for oil changes is reasonable. Hopefully he is as punctual in flushing all the other fluids in the vehicle. > > I know that engines are machined to greater tolerances than those of > 20 years ago, The tolerances are probably tighter if anything... > which then included a free dealer oil change at 500 > miles to flush out the metal filings etc, but would you agree that it > makes sense to use a break in sequence Contamination from the manufacturing process hasn't disappeared. , such as this, at this time, > with our new Toyota 4Runner - rather than the published approach, > which is to just do nothing until 5k miles and then change to > Synthetic, if I wished to ? It is probably worthwhile extra insurance that doesn't cost much over the life of the car. > > I don't mind the extra expense, even the cost of synthetic, and filter > changes, in exchange for any benefits that breaking in in a preferable > way would provide, if they so exist. It is possible that such a break > in sequence would be a bit too daunting or complex for non machine > minded consumers and Toyota, although it might so prefer it this way, > just leaves the change at 5K miles to simplify things. Toyota like all car companies tries to reach a balance between cost of maintenance and cost of repairs. The improved quality of lubricants combined with notable improvements in engine technology have allowed some car manufacturers to extend oil change schedules without having a notable impact on engine wear. It is non unusual to see cars run for 300,000 miules with no major repairs. Thirty years ago 100,000 miles was the benchmark. The maintenance schedules are to some extent influenced by the widely publicized cost-of-annual-maintenance data. Some car companies carry extended maintenance schedules to what I would call an extreme to keep those numbers down. Good questions. |
#7
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in histruck ?
Forrest wrote:
> A friend and neighbor, who is a retired engineer and has knowledge and > experience with things mechanical, including cars, told me just now > that he broke in his 1999 Ford 150 Lightning truck by changing the > original factory oil at 1000 miles and then again at 2500 and then at > 5000 and has kept to 5K, with synthetic, for changes since. > > I know that engines are machined to greater tolerances than those of > 20 years ago, Actually, they're not. Most of the critical engine clearance specifications (piston-to-wall, ring gap, bearing clearnace) for a 1966 engine are essentially identical to those of a 2006 engine. What has changed is twofold: 1) quality of OIL is vastly improved and continually improving. 2) consistency of assembly- IOW, its easier for a manufacturer to hit the specifications right on the mark on EVERY engine that rolls off the line these days. For what its worth, though, I break in all new engines (whether just purchased or a freshly rebuilt 1966 engine) pretty much exactly the way your neighbor did. If its a truly freshly-assembled engine that I've put together and has never been run at all before, I do the first oil change after one *hour* of break-in time, believe it or not, to get all the assembly lubricant and initial wear products out. Then 500 miles, then 1000, then 2500-3000, then normal oil changes. It may not be a significant benefit, but it definitely cannot hurt. Given the amount of visible metal in the oil that comes out of any freshly assembled engine (including 2006 engines) I would AT LEAST change the filter after a few hundred miles on any new car. |
#8
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in histruck ?
jeffcoslacker wrote:
> Knifeblade_03 Wrote: > >>A lot of yes/no regarding use of synthetic oil, so it a hard call. But, >>I would foolow your friend's thinking by changing oil and filter at 1K, >>2.5K, and again at 5K. It not expensive [meaning the oil changes], and >>they get rid of any flotsam and jetsam created by a new engine break-in >>period. > > > Used to be there was a lot. Now there's none... I haven't observed any difference in the past 40 years or so. Rings seating will ALWAYS generate about the same amount of fluff, and if you do NOT get that fluff, then the rings aren't seating as they need to and the engine will be a chronic oil-burner. There should be minimal-to-no material shed from bearings during breakin, none from a roller cam, and only a slight amount from a slider cam. Its really the ring fluff that I like to get out of the system. Yes, the filter catches it, but a filter failure (they do happen!) can dump it all right back in. Better safe than sorry. nothing an oil filter > can't deal with anyway. Back in the day, real fine finishing machining > wasn't fast enough for production vehicles, and the final finish was > achieved through friction, the main area being cylinder wall to ring > seating...and other direct contact areas like pushrod to rocker contact > and lifter/cam... I think you grossly under-estimate the precision of older engines. A rougher cylinder wall finish was specified with bare iron rings, yes, but it was NOT expected to "finish itself" on breakin. That rougher finish was just required for oil retention with bare iron rings, and stayed there through the life of the engine. Chrome finished rings require a much smoother surface, but the total amount of material shed during breakin is basically the same. > > But the surface prep on parts now is so good, usually the parts' > surface is even better when new and unrun than it would be after a > run-in period...therefore, no debris generated...techniques for > controlling cleanliness of the assembly areas are also much improved... > > Had a friend buy a Civic Si a couple of years ago, and he was wondering > the same thing, and was told by the service dept to run it normal for > 500 miles and then drive it like you stole it..and go with the printed > reccommendations for oil change intervals... > > 74,000 miles of his daily abuse, and it still uses less than 1/2 quart > between changes, same as when it was new. Half a quart between changes is pretty excessive, especially for a 4-cylinder. My last "brand new" engine (1993 Chrysler 3.5L v6) burned less than a few ounces (not measurable on the dipstick) between changes from about 10,000 miles to 180,000 miles or so. Now at a little over 240,000 miles, its crept up to about a quart to a quart and a half every 7000 miles (the change interval with Mobil-1). Some of that is leakage from valve cover and pan gaskets, though. |
#9
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in his truck ?
Steve Wrote: > jeffcoslacker wrote: > > > Knifeblade_03 Wrote: > > > >>A lot of yes/no regarding use of synthetic oil, so it a hard call. > But, > >>I would foolow your friend's thinking by changing oil and filter at > 1K, > >>2.5K, and again at 5K. It not expensive [meaning the oil changes], > and > >>they get rid of any flotsam and jetsam created by a new engine > break-in > >>period. > > > > > > Used to be there was a lot. Now there's none... > > I haven't observed any difference in the past 40 years or so. Rings > seating will ALWAYS generate about the same amount of fluff, and if you > do NOT get that fluff, then the rings aren't seating as they need to > and > the engine will be a chronic oil-burner. There should be minimal-to-no > material shed from bearings during breakin, none from a roller cam, and > only a slight amount from a slider cam. Its really the ring fluff that > I > like to get out of the system. Yes, the filter catches it, but a > filter failure (they do happen!) can dump it all right back in. Better > safe than sorry. > > nothing an oil filter > > can't deal with anyway. Back in the day, real fine finishing > machining > > wasn't fast enough for production vehicles, and the final finish was > > achieved through friction, the main area being cylinder wall to ring > > seating...and other direct contact areas like pushrod to rocker > contact > > and lifter/cam... > > I think you grossly under-estimate the precision of older engines. A > rougher cylinder wall finish was specified with bare iron rings, yes, > but it was NOT expected to "finish itself" on breakin. That rougher > finish was just required for oil retention with bare iron rings, and > stayed there through the life of the engine. Chrome finished rings > require a much smoother surface, but the total amount of material shed > during breakin is basically the same. > > > > > But the surface prep on parts now is so good, usually the parts' > > surface is even better when new and unrun than it would be after a > > run-in period...therefore, no debris generated...techniques for > > controlling cleanliness of the assembly areas are also much > improved... > > > > Had a friend buy a Civic Si a couple of years ago, and he was > wondering > > the same thing, and was told by the service dept to run it normal for > > 500 miles and then drive it like you stole it..and go with the > printed > > reccommendations for oil change intervals... > > > > 74,000 miles of his daily abuse, and it still uses less than 1/2 > quart > > between changes, same as when it was new. > > Half a quart between changes is pretty excessive, especially for a > 4-cylinder. My last "brand new" engine (1993 Chrysler 3.5L v6) burned > less than a few ounces (not measurable on the dipstick) between changes > from about 10,000 miles to 180,000 miles or so. Now at a little over > 240,000 miles, its crept up to about a quart to a quart and a half > every > 7000 miles (the change interval with Mobil-1). Some of that is leakage > from valve cover and pan gaskets, though. Why do I bother getting involved in oil threads:banghead: Eveybody has their own opinion, experiences, and nobody ever changes their mind based on what anybody says....:grinno: For the record, if you aren't using over a quart every 1000 miles in a modern engine, you can't even qualify for excessive oil usage under most new car warrantees...less than half a quart in 5000 miles is well within acceptable for any motor...especially a tweaky 4 cylinder that gets wrung out to it's limits every time it's driven... I don't recall seeing cylinder wall cross-hatching after an engine has run more than a few thousend miles, but if you say so... I don't doubt your expertise...just doesn't jive with my own and my observations....and therein lies the futility of oil threads....:grinyes: -- jeffcoslacker ------------------------------------------------------------------------ jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=615647 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
#10
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My engineer neighbor's approach to oil change breaking in his truck ?
Won't hurt to follow the 'traditional' break in. 5000 miles between oil
changes is a bit too much for my liking, synthetic or not, but as has been stated personal preference is just that . . . personal. That being said, many 'aftermarket extended service warranties' will require documentation of no more than 4000 mile oil change intervals. I like the synthetic blends for price/performance value. I drive Fords so I use Motorcraft oil and filters. The quality of the filter you use is the most important variable you control. Factory filters are always a good choice. For the most part avoid the 'Quickie Lube' brands of filters along with Fram. NAPA Gold filters are manufactured by WIX and are also a good choice. When I was involved with building professional racing engines the norm for start up was to use a series of aircraft screen filters in the oil return lines in addition to the normal filtering arrangement. These engines were assembled in a 'clean' environment with great care. The amount of 'trash' generated on initial run in is astounding. First one I saw I thought the engine had a serious malfunction. Doesn't take long for the trash to be filtered out and the oil stream clears up. When you buy a car from the dealer and run it out to the 7500 mile oil change you're gambling your filter has enough capacity to hold all the trash without bypassing and running the crap through your engine. Forrest wrote: > A friend and neighbor, who is a retired engineer and has knowledge and > experience with things mechanical, including cars, told me just now > that he broke in his 1999 Ford 150 Lightning truck by changing the > original factory oil at 1000 miles and then again at 2500 and then at > 5000 and has kept to 5K, with synthetic, for changes since. > > I know that engines are machined to greater tolerances than those of > 20 years ago, which then included a free dealer oil change at 500 > miles to flush out the metal filings etc, but would you agree that it > makes sense to use a break in sequence, such as this, at this time, > with our new Toyota 4Runner - rather than the published approach, > which is to just do nothing until 5k miles and then change to > Synthetic, if I wished to ? > > I don't mind the extra expense, even the cost of synthetic, and filter > changes, in exchange for any benefits that breaking in in a preferable > way would provide, if they so exist. It is possible that such a break > in sequence would be a bit too daunting or complex for non machine > minded consumers and Toyota, although it might so prefer it this way, > just leaves the change at 5K miles to simplify things. > > Thanks, > > Forrest |
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