Timing Advance on a 93 5.0 Can I?

If someone would be kind enough, I have a question about a 92 Mustang
motor.

Can I put a 4 degree advance on a stock 5.0 mustang motor? My concern is
that the computer would have no way to identify what was going on.

If I advanced the timing at the timing belt, do I have to make any
adjustments, or will the car even run? I can't decide if the computer
would "see" the timing problem, or in some way compensate for it. Would
that cause a rich mixture and poor low torque?

Thank you for your input. My local mechanics have not had an answer for me.

Unplug the spout connector and adjust the timing in the usual manner.
Reconnect the spout and you're good to go. The PCm takes it's timing cue
from the hall effect sensor in the distributor. If the distributor has been
out, it is important to align the signature PIP with #1.

The 5.0 does not have a timing belt - belt or chain, any attempts to get
"creative" with sprocket/chain relationships will only result in
disappointment and possible broken parts.

I suggest purchasing a service manual for your car and learning about the
systems.

"Lawson[rem0ve]news" > wrote in message
news:Ps6ue.20494$mC.17919@okepread07...
> If someone would be kind enough, I have a question about a 92 Mustang
> motor.
>
> Can I put a 4 degree advance on a stock 5.0 mustang motor? My concern is
> that the computer would have no way to identify what was going on.
>
> If I advanced the timing at the timing belt, do I have to make any
> adjustments, or will the car even run? I can't decide if the computer
> would "see" the timing problem, or in some way compensate for it. Would
> that cause a rich mixture and poor low torque?
>
> Thank you for your input. My local mechanics have not had an answer for
me.

Thanks Jim,

The motor has a Edelbrock Performer timing chain. It is adjustable 4
degrees one way or the other. Are you saying if I advance the timing at
the timing chain, the engine will be damaged or not run?

I am having trouble researching this because stock publications don't
really cover after market changes. I have a service manual, but I am
trying to focus on motor issues. It is more of an aftermarket problem.

You said there is no timing belt or chain. Not sure why you say this. It
is not a gear drive, it is a chain drive. I am certain of this. I just
want to understand what will happen if I advance the timing. Does a
mechanical change in timing effect the electronic aspects of the motor?

I hope I am making more sense here.

Lawson

Jim Warman wrote:

>Unplug the spout connector and adjust the timing in the usual manner.
>Reconnect the spout and you're good to go. The PCm takes it's timing cue
>from the hall effect sensor in the distributor. If the distributor has been
>out, it is important to align the signature PIP with #1.
>
>The 5.0 does not have a timing belt - belt or chain, any attempts to get
>"creative" with sprocket/chain relationships will only result in
>disappointment and possible broken parts.
>
>I suggest purchasing a service manual for your car and learning about the
>systems.
>
>"Lawson[rem0ve]news" > wrote in message
>news:Ps6ue.20494$mC.17919@okepread07...
>
>
>>If someone would be kind enough, I have a question about a 92 Mustang
>>motor.
>>
>>Can I put a 4 degree advance on a stock 5.0 mustang motor? My concern is
>>that the computer would have no way to identify what was going on.
>>
>>If I advanced the timing at the timing belt, do I have to make any
>>adjustments, or will the car even run? I can't decide if the computer
>>would "see" the timing problem, or in some way compensate for it. Would
>>that cause a rich mixture and poor low torque?
>>
>>Thank you for your input. My local mechanics have not had an answer for
>>
>>
>me.
>
>
>
>

Read Jim's post again, very carefully. You have a timing chain. Ignition
timing is normally adjusted by turning the distributor. To far in either
direction (retarded or advanced) will not yield the desired results. No idea
what timing should be set at in a 5.0... maybe Jim can help with that one.

Carl

I recommend advancing the timing via the distributor. Depending on the
engine I've seen timing advanced up to 14 degrees total. It just
depends on the particular engine you heve in the car. The computer
expects the distributor timing to be set at a standard 8 degrees (I
think this is correct) and the timing curves it uses will be increases
or decreased by the amount you deviate from the stock setting.

If you really want to control your timing, and many other parameters
then look into a probramable chip like the TwEECer RT. I have one and
it works great and will allow you to real time data log and control
numerous computer functions. You could also have a chip burned by a
reputable speed shop if you don't want the hassles of programing a chip
yourself.

Lawson[rem0ve]news wrote:
> If someone would be kind enough, I have a question about a 92 Mustang
> motor.
>
> Can I put a 4 degree advance on a stock 5.0 mustang motor? My concern is
> that the computer would have no way to identify what was going on.
>
> If I advanced the timing at the timing belt, do I have to make any
> adjustments, or will the car even run? I can't decide if the computer
> would "see" the timing problem, or in some way compensate for it. Would
> that cause a rich mixture and poor low torque?
>
> Thank you for your input. My local mechanics have not had an answer for me.

I must have misread your post (though no mention was made of the Edelbrock
gears). Set up properly, advamcing the cam 4 degrees will not damage the
motor. Information is our friend and you need to include all pertinent data.

Advancing the camshafy 4 degrees will generally improve bottom end torque
*in most instances*.

What I said was the 5.0 does not have a timing belt.... then I went on to
say (it doesn't matter if it is) belt or chain. This is the reason there was
a punctuation mark in the statement. You had made mention of adjusting the
timing belt even though you "are sure" it is a chain.... why would that be?

State your questions clearly, including all pertinent data. In that way, we
can opffer meaningful advice.


"Lawson[rem0ve]news" > wrote in message
news:zg7ue.20495$mC.735@okepread07...
Thanks Jim,

The motor has a Edelbrock Performer timing chain. It is adjustable 4 degrees
one way or the other. Are you saying if I advance the timing at the timing
chain, the engine will be damaged or not run?

I am having trouble researching this because stock publications don't really
cover after market changes. I have a service manual, but I am trying to
focus on motor issues. It is more of an aftermarket problem.

You said there is no timing belt or chain. Not sure why you say this. It is
not a gear drive, it is a chain drive. I am certain of this. I just want to
understand what will happen if I advance the timing. Does a mechanical
change in timing effect the electronic aspects of the motor?

I hope I am making more sense here.

Lawson

Jim Warman wrote:

Unplug the spout connector and adjust the timing in the usual manner.
Reconnect the spout and you're good to go. The PCm takes it's timing cue
from the hall effect sensor in the distributor. If the distributor has been
out, it is important to align the signature PIP with #1.

The 5.0 does not have a timing belt - belt or chain, any attempts to get
"creative" with sprocket/chain relationships will only result in
disappointment and possible broken parts.

I suggest purchasing a service manual for your car and learning about the
systems.

"Lawson[rem0ve]news" > wrote in message
news:Ps6ue.20494$mC.17919@okepread07...

If someone would be kind enough, I have a question about a 92 Mustang
motor.

Can I put a 4 degree advance on a stock 5.0 mustang motor? My concern is
that the computer would have no way to identify what was going on.

If I advanced the timing at the timing belt, do I have to make any
adjustments, or will the car even run? I can't decide if the computer
would "see" the timing problem, or in some way compensate for it. Would
that cause a rich mixture and poor low torque?

Thank you for your input. My local mechanics have not had an answer for

me.

I greatly appreciate the help. I am trying to keep the question as
simple as possible to not distract from the core question I have in
mind. I can see where the confusion come from. Let me clarify as best I
can. To be honest, I know enough to get myself in trouble, but the
bigger issue is that no one seems to know the answer to my question
locally.

I participate in newsgroups myself, and genuinely respect the knowledge
that they generally represent. That is why I am here. My understanding
for some unknown reason is that timing can be altered on an engine two
ways. One by changing the electronic timing at the distributor (that's
how it used to be), and Two by mechanically changing the timing at the
timing chain on the camshaft. Again, my understanding is that the
mechanical approach is more reliable and considered "true" timing
advance. Hopefully my mind isn't melting over the years, but that is how
I recall it.

The motor I am referring to was rebuilt. The man rebuilding it, knew
that I wanted as much low torque as possible. We chose to use an
Edelbrock Performer timing chain set-up. The gear set had the option to
set a 4 degree advance to increase torque. No one I could find at the
thought that would present any problems.

My concern was that engines have changed over the years, and I am
unclear on what readings the computer takes off the engine, and how it
uses those readings. If my engine's computer "thinks" it is using a
standard timing position of 0 degrees, have I created a problem by using
a mechanical timing advance?

The engine is slow at the line, runs rich, some light backfiring in the
engine compartment when starting or warming up. Kind of hard to keep
running that first minute or so until it stabilizes. Once the RPM's are
up, the engine seems to have nice pick-up and all is satisfactory.

I replaced the Mass Air Intake, but the problem still exists. I am
haunted by that decision on the timing chain advance. Is the timing
creating the problem of rich, no power, or should I go back to tracking
down a false sensor or something?

The engine is from a 92 mustang convertible GT. The computer
unfortunately is not. It is a Mass Air set-up that uses a jumper of some
sort to attach to an old school wiring harness. I would have to look up
details on that, but I want to first resolve whether I can dismiss the
timing as a non issue and move on to other troubleshooting.

The reason for the wiring jumper is because the engine had no wiring
with it when purchased. The people who did the wiring for me used the
earlier engine wiring with the later model Mass Air sensors. That
apparently requires some type of jumper. I will track down more details
as needed, but if timing advance is the problem, then I need to fix that.

Thank you in advance, and I am sorry for so much info here. Again I
really appreciate your assistance here.

Lawson





Jim Warman wrote:

>I must have misread your post (though no mention was made of the Edelbrock
>gears). Set up properly, advamcing the cam 4 degrees will not damage the
>motor. Information is our friend and you need to include all pertinent data.
>
>Advancing the camshafy 4 degrees will generally improve bottom end torque
>*in most instances*.
>
>What I said was the 5.0 does not have a timing belt.... then I went on to
>say (it doesn't matter if it is) belt or chain. This is the reason there was
>a punctuation mark in the statement. You had made mention of adjusting the
>timing belt even though you "are sure" it is a chain.... why would that be?
>
>State your questions clearly, including all pertinent data. In that way, we
>can opffer meaningful advice.
>
>
>"Lawson[rem0ve]news" > wrote in message
>news:zg7ue.20495$mC.735@okepread07...
>Thanks Jim,
>
>The motor has a Edelbrock Performer timing chain. It is adjustable 4 degrees
>one way or the other. Are you saying if I advance the timing at the timing
>chain, the engine will be damaged or not run?
>
>I am having trouble researching this because stock publications don't really
>cover after market changes. I have a service manual, but I am trying to
>focus on motor issues. It is more of an aftermarket problem.
>
>You said there is no timing belt or chain. Not sure why you say this. It is
>not a gear drive, it is a chain drive. I am certain of this. I just want to
>understand what will happen if I advance the timing. Does a mechanical
>change in timing effect the electronic aspects of the motor?
>
>I hope I am making more sense here.
>
>Lawson
>
>Jim Warman wrote:
>
>Unplug the spout connector and adjust the timing in the usual manner.
>Reconnect the spout and you're good to go. The PCm takes it's timing cue
>from the hall effect sensor in the distributor. If the distributor has been
>out, it is important to align the signature PIP with #1.
>
>The 5.0 does not have a timing belt - belt or chain, any attempts to get
>"creative" with sprocket/chain relationships will only result in
>disappointment and possible broken parts.
>
>I suggest purchasing a service manual for your car and learning about the
>systems.
>
>"Lawson[rem0ve]news" > wrote in message
>news:Ps6ue.20494$mC.17919@okepread07...
>
>If someone would be kind enough, I have a question about a 92 Mustang
>motor.
>
>Can I put a 4 degree advance on a stock 5.0 mustang motor? My concern is
>that the computer would have no way to identify what was going on.
>
>If I advanced the timing at the timing belt, do I have to make any
>adjustments, or will the car even run? I can't decide if the computer
>would "see" the timing problem, or in some way compensate for it. Would
>that cause a rich mixture and poor low torque?
>
>Thank you for your input. My local mechanics have not had an answer for
>
>me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I just posted a few more details, but you are on to what I am asking. I
want a resolution that doesn't require taking the engine apart. I know
that there are all sorts of chips for all sorts of applications. I just
want to get everything under control.

The engine is mechanically stock other than the advanced timing gear. 4
degrees.

Michael Johnson, PE wrote:

> I recommend advancing the timing via the distributor. Depending on
> the engine I've seen timing advanced up to 14 degrees total. It just
> depends on the particular engine you heve in the car. The computer
> expects the distributor timing to be set at a standard 8 degrees (I
> think this is correct) and the timing curves it uses will be increases
> or decreased by the amount you deviate from the stock setting.
>
> If you really want to control your timing, and many other parameters
> then look into a probramable chip like the TwEECer RT. I have one and
> it works great and will allow you to real time data log and control
> numerous computer functions. You could also have a chip burned by a
> reputable speed shop if you don't want the hassles of programing a
> chip yourself.
>
> Lawson[rem0ve]news wrote:
>
>> If someone would be kind enough, I have a question about a 92 Mustang
>> motor.
>>
>> Can I put a 4 degree advance on a stock 5.0 mustang motor? My concern
>> is that the computer would have no way to identify what was going on.
>>
>> If I advanced the timing at the timing belt, do I have to make any
>> adjustments, or will the car even run? I can't decide if the computer
>> would "see" the timing problem, or in some way compensate for it.
>> Would that cause a rich mixture and poor low torque?
>>
>> Thank you for your input. My local mechanics have not had an answer
>> for me.
>

Look into the TwEECer RT. It gives you control over most aspects of the
EEC parameters. Plus you can data log and see what effect your
programming changes have made. Here's a link to their web site:

http://www.tweecer.com/products.htm

Lawson[rem0ve]news wrote:
> I just posted a few more details, but you are on to what I am asking. I
> want a resolution that doesn't require taking the engine apart. I know
> that there are all sorts of chips for all sorts of applications. I just
> want to get everything under control.
>
> The engine is mechanically stock other than the advanced timing gear. 4
> degrees.
>
> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>
>> I recommend advancing the timing via the distributor. Depending on
>> the engine I've seen timing advanced up to 14 degrees total. It just
>> depends on the particular engine you heve in the car. The computer
>> expects the distributor timing to be set at a standard 8 degrees (I
>> think this is correct) and the timing curves it uses will be increases
>> or decreased by the amount you deviate from the stock setting.
>>
>> If you really want to control your timing, and many other parameters
>> then look into a probramable chip like the TwEECer RT. I have one and
>> it works great and will allow you to real time data log and control
>> numerous computer functions. You could also have a chip burned by a
>> reputable speed shop if you don't want the hassles of programing a
>> chip yourself.
>>
>> Lawson[rem0ve]news wrote:
>>
>>> If someone would be kind enough, I have a question about a 92 Mustang
>>> motor.
>>>
>>> Can I put a 4 degree advance on a stock 5.0 mustang motor? My concern
>>> is that the computer would have no way to identify what was going on.
>>>
>>> If I advanced the timing at the timing belt, do I have to make any
>>> adjustments, or will the car even run? I can't decide if the computer
>>> would "see" the timing problem, or in some way compensate for it.
>>> Would that cause a rich mixture and poor low torque?
>>>
>>> Thank you for your input. My local mechanics have not had an answer
>>> for me.
>>
>>

Ahhh. So there is Ignition timing and the valve timing. You are correct,
I was lumping them together. That clarifies things.

Do you have any suggestions as to where I might start to trace the
wiring harness on the engine. This jumper they referred to was treated
like it was a common solution. The new Mass Air (87-94?) sensors were
added to the existing engine wiring. I will contact the people that did
the work, but I have not been that excited with getting involved with
them again.

It would make sense if I could get a visual of the wiring and something
that tells what the components do. I have worked with a mechanic, and he
seems to think all the sensors are fine. I may just have to bite the
bullet and go back to the people that did the wiring.

Do the symptoms mean anything to you... or anybody else? starts easily,
doesn't want to stay running at first, if I give gas, I get a hollow
muffled mild backfiring from under the hood. The engine will smooth out
after a minute or so, but continues to run very rich. Driving it is flat
at low RPM's and doesn't really come into real power until about 3000
rpm. Does that give any indication as to what sensors may be bad. The
engine only has 6,000 miles on it. Plugs, air and gas filters, fuel pump
all new.

I'll dig in from here. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Lawson

..boB wrote:

> Lawson[rem0ve]news wrote:
>
>> I greatly appreciate the help. I am trying to keep the question as
>> simple as possible to not distract from the core question I have in
>> mind. I can see where the confusion come from. Let me clarify as best
>> I can. To be honest, I know enough to get myself in trouble, but the
>> bigger issue is that no one seems to know the answer to my question
>> locally.
>>
>> I participate in newsgroups myself, and genuinely respect the
>> knowledge that they generally represent. That is why I am here. My
>> understanding for some unknown reason is that timing can be altered
>> on an engine two ways. One by changing the electronic timing at the
>> distributor (that's how it used to be), and Two by mechanically
>> changing the timing at the timing chain on the camshaft. Again, my
>> understanding is that the mechanical approach is more reliable and
>> considered "true" timing advance. Hopefully my mind isn't melting
>> over the years, but that is how I recall it.
>>
>>>
>
> You're using two terms interchangeably, and they are not.
> The distributor (and the computer) control ignition timing.
> That's the timing of the ignition spark in relation to piston
> movement. That can be changed simply by moving the distributor
> around. It's easy to check with a timing light at the crank shaft
> snout. I would start there.
> The Edelbrock timing gear advances or retards the valve timing in
> relationship to the piston movement. Advancing that by 4* will
> generally move the power band down a little lower in the rpm range.
> This is difficult to check, and requires a degree wheel and a dial
> indicator. Some engine disassembly is required - valve cover, spark
> plugs and balancer removal at the least.
> One changes ignition timing, and the other changes valve
> timing. Closely related, but very different.
> If I were you, I would forget about the cam timing. 4* advanced
> or retarded on the cam shaft isn't that big a deal. Instead, I would
> chase down that cobbled together wiring harness and get that
> straightened out.
>