Question for the group...

Hi Jim,

Your reports on gun crimes in the UK are wrong we do have gun crimes, but
they are very very rare against individuals, guns are usually used to rob
banks etc, violent crimes rates are high, but there is nothing more the
Brits love more than to get ****ed and have a good punch up.
Of course the only thing is that if someone carry's a gun around and get
****ed off at someone, there's a good chance they are going to shoot them,
if you add alcohol and youth into the equation it becomes even more crazy,
to my mind there should be no circumstances what so ever where a member of
the public should carry a handgun, you want to hunt no problem use a rifle.
I do not understand what your German friend is talking about, it is
virtually unheard of for a police chase to be stopped by shooting.
In the Uk the police do not carry guns, and even when asked if they would
like to carry guns, they vast majority voted against it.
It is a long drawn out argument over gun control, buy my believe is that
all handguns they are wrong and there should be no reason at all for anyone
to posses one, they are designed, manufactured and produced for the specific
purpose of killing another human at very close quarters.
As history has shown the public being armed is not a deterrent, it just
makes the criminals carry more powerful guns.
And in no way shape of form should America ever be used as an example of
appropriate control of firearms, Americans are killing more Americans, that
even a mass murderer on Hitler's scale would be proud of, it is absolutely
crazy.


Cheers Mark.



"BallroomDancer" > wrote in message
news:VW4Wd.47224$7z6.5065@lakeread04...
>
> "gixer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I am originally from the Uk but I am now living in Greece.
>> Which has a very low crime rate, 1 of the reasons I moved from the UK was
>> I sick and tired of getting cars and bikes stolen and broken into.
>> As for the crime rate, it really depends on what aspect of crime you
>> rate, if you measure violent crimes, with guns then the US is #1.
>
> Depends very much on where one lives in the US. Violent crime with guns in
> the US is predominately in those cities which have very restrictive gun
> laws - the criminal figures that their victim is very unlikely to bring
> any lethal force to bear. In those parts of the US like where I live,
> criminals have to figure that many of the local citizens are well armed,
> well trained in the use of their weapons, and quite willing to save the
> state the cost of a trial. Example - several years ago, the state of
> Louisana passed a law that gives an automatic presumption of self-defense
> to anyone who is being carjacked. So - more dead carjackers for a little
> while, then carjacking became a very infrequent crime in Louisana.
>
> The US does have significant problems with long drawn out police chases -
> which is ridiculous. I was told when I was working in Germany that there
> were no long police chases, they simply shot the offenders as soon as it
> could be done without significant risk of the public being harmed. Cars,
> bikes, etc. being stolen and broken into does occur even in small towns,
> but not nearly like in major cities.
>
> I do not have personal experience, but reports which I have received
> indicate that the UK has had a significant increase in the past several
> years of the citizens being terrorized by gun armed criminals, since the
> UK laws have effectively disarmed the public, and even go to the extent of
> prosecuting the homeowner who manages to harm a criminal.
>
> I personally would prefer to live in a society where there are very few
> repeat criminals, because they have been killed after their first crime
> spree.
>
> Jim.
>

gixer wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> Your reports on gun crimes in the UK are wrong we do have gun crimes, but
> they are very very rare against individuals, guns are usually used to rob
> banks etc, violent crimes rates are high, but there is nothing more the
> Brits love more than to get ****ed and have a good punch up.
> Of course the only thing is that if someone carry's a gun around and get
> ****ed off at someone, there's a good chance they are going to shoot them,
> if you add alcohol and youth into the equation it becomes even more crazy,
> to my mind there should be no circumstances what so ever where a member of
> the public should carry a handgun, you want to hunt no problem use a rifle.
> I do not understand what your German friend is talking about, it is
> virtually unheard of for a police chase to be stopped by shooting.
> In the Uk the police do not carry guns, and even when asked if they would
> like to carry guns, they vast majority voted against it.
> It is a long drawn out argument over gun control, buy my believe is that
> all handguns they are wrong and there should be no reason at all for anyone
> to posses one, they are designed, manufactured and produced for the specific
> purpose of killing another human at very close quarters.
> As history has shown the public being armed is not a deterrent, it just
> makes the criminals carry more powerful guns.
> And in no way shape of form should America ever be used as an example of
> appropriate control of firearms, Americans are killing more Americans, that
> even a mass murderer on Hitler's scale would be proud of, it is absolutely
> crazy.
>
>
> Cheers Mark.

I don't think that an anti-gun person has ever convinced a pro-gun
person of their position or vice-versa through discussion of facts or
opinions.
I would be glad to point out what I believe to be falsehoods in your
post, but talk.politics.guns would be a far more appropriate place to do
so than an automotive newsgroup, wouldn't you agree?

Pat

"gixer" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Jim,
>
> Your reports on gun crimes in the UK are wrong we do have gun crimes, but
> they are very very rare against individuals, guns are usually used to rob
> banks etc, violent crimes rates are high, but there is nothing more the
> Brits love more than to get ****ed and have a good punch up.
> Of course the only thing is that if someone carry's a gun around and get
> ****ed off at someone, there's a good chance they are going to shoot them,
> if you add alcohol and youth into the equation it becomes even more crazy,
> to my mind there should be no circumstances what so ever where a member of
> the public should carry a handgun, you want to hunt no problem use a
> rifle.
> I do not understand what your German friend is talking about, it is
> virtually unheard of for a police chase to be stopped by shooting.
> In the Uk the police do not carry guns, and even when asked if they would
> like to carry guns, they vast majority voted against it.
> It is a long drawn out argument over gun control, buy my believe is that
> all handguns they are wrong and there should be no reason at all for
> anyone to posses one, they are designed, manufactured and produced for the
> specific purpose of killing another human at very close quarters.
> As history has shown the public being armed is not a deterrent, it just
> makes the criminals carry more powerful guns.
> And in no way shape of form should America ever be used as an example of
> appropriate control of firearms, Americans are killing more Americans,
> that even a mass murderer on Hitler's scale would be proud of, it is
> absolutely crazy.
Actually, I'm glad to hear that my news sources are not backed up by someone
"on the scene." I have run into this in my travels overseas in past years,
my parents being afraid for me because of where I was - when where I was
actually was peaceful.
I do know that German police were armed when I was in the country. Those at
the airport carried M-16 rifles, the motorcycle road police were armed with
Uzi. I've not had the pleasure of visiting England. French airport police in
Paris were armed with 9mm pistols.
I'm a native of North Carolina, and have also lived in Virginia. Both states
allow open (visible) carrying of pistols in public with some limitations
(i.e. no banks, bars, airports, courthouses, etc.) Concealed carry is
permitted with permits (again, with limitations as above) - usual process of
geting a permit is a written request to the local sheriff or police chief,
it is also required that one go through a course in weapon use and safety.
Fingerprints are taken. The largest city where I have lived is the
Norfolk-Virginia Beach area called "Tidewater", and armed crime there is a
rarity in comparision to the total population.
I know from news media accounts that California police ran into the problem
a few years ago that the crminials were armed better than law enforcement,
but this has been rectified.
Unfortunately, times have changed here also - when I was a youth in high
school, it was quite common during deer season for a number of the boys to
drive the family truck to school, with the .30-06 rifle (or whatever other
hunting weapon) on a rack inside the cab of the truck, so that they could
immediately go hunting after school. At that time, there was virtually no
likelihood of a kid doing things like happened at Columbine. Personally, I
believe that the major reason was a different attitude of the public at that
time, and a much lower usage of drugs in the general population. I was
taught how to shoot by by grandfather, had my first (bb air gun) gun by the
time I was 8, and just grew up in a different culture.
Each to their own view - I only get cross with those who are determined to
enforce their will over my own. We have politicians in this country who are
strongly against any right by the average citizen to own a gun - and many of
these politicians at the higher level go to their jobs in Congress in a limo
with an armed driver - seems like hipocrisy.
Jim

(BRUCE HASKIN) wrote in
:

> Well, in Washington State and I'm sure all other states, You are
> allowed have: ( 2 ) hanging Blue Tags, ( 1 ) Hanging Blue Tag and
> a DP Lic. plate, But NOT ( 2 ) DP Lic. plates ! We pay $13.50
> for the DP plate and can move it to a "new car" with no cost. If
> you want a DP plate you vust need to go ask for one ( and pay a
> fee for it :-) ) As I said in my other post, I have my DP plate
> on my Miata and I can use my hanging tag for any other car I am in

Yesterday I spend a whole bunch of time and many, many phone calls to
the license people asking about this and found I can have a handicap
plate on my car AND retain the placard for my other vehicles.

As is often the case I was given a great deal of misinformation as to
how to obtain the plate but finally I learned how (or at least was
given information that was reasonable) and will do so ASAP. I'm not
sure it will cost anything, but I'll find out!

pws > wrote in
news
> but talk.politics.guns would be a far more appropriate place
> to do so than an automotive newsgroup, wouldn't you agree?

Yes and I'd like to apologise to the group for starting this thread
although how it ever got from "I'm afraid someone will steal my
handicap placard if I hang it on the rear view mirror with the top
down" to a discussion of crime rates, etc. is confusing but typical of
newsgroups.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:01:56 GMT, pws > wrote:

What does this have to do with Automobiles? Other than avoiding
getting carjacked?

>gixer wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Your reports on gun crimes in the UK are wrong we do have gun crimes, but
>> they are very very rare against individuals, guns are usually used to rob
>> banks etc, violent crimes rates are high, but there is nothing more the
>> Brits love more than to get ****ed and have a good punch up.
>> Of course the only thing is that if someone carry's a gun around and get
>> ****ed off at someone, there's a good chance they are going to shoot them,
>> if you add alcohol and youth into the equation it becomes even more crazy,

The Swiss all have guns in their homes. Required by Law. They are a
very polite society. Botswana and the Bahamas have the highest murder
rates in the world. both are ex-british colonies with restrictive gun
laws.

>> to my mind there should be no circumstances what so ever where a member of
>> the public should carry a handgun, you want to hunt no problem use a rifle.

In Britain, burgleries are committed when the occupants are at home.
In the US, homes are targetted when the occupants are away.


>> I do not understand what your German friend is talking about, it is
>> virtually unheard of for a police chase to be stopped by shooting.
>> In the Uk the police do not carry guns, and even when asked if they would
>> like to carry guns, they vast majority voted against it.
>> It is a long drawn out argument over gun control, buy my believe is that
>> all handguns they are wrong and there should be no reason at all for anyone
>> to posses one, they are designed, manufactured and produced for the specific
>> purpose of killing another human at very close quarters.

Some human beings do deserve being killed.

Statistical data in the US shows that an unarmed rape vitcitm is much
more likely to be injured that an armed woman.

>> As history has shown the public being armed is not a deterrent, it just
>> makes the criminals carry more powerful guns.

Bunk. See the Swiss example.

>> And in no way shape of form should America ever be used as an example of
>> appropriate control of firearms, Americans are killing more Americans, that
>> even a mass murderer on Hitler's scale would be proud of, it is absolutely
>> crazy.


Total bull****. Hitler systematically murderd 14 million human beings
starting with the mentally infirm, then the homosexuals, the jews, and
the catholics. That you equate that to the distorted view the press
proviedes makes your judgement suspect.

As for the peacefulness of Brittain. Their government began
disarming the citizenry after World War two because the ruling class
was afraid they would be confronted with an irate public is 30's
depression returned, public safety had nothing to do with it.
Assuring the pertetuity of the ruling class, everything. I guess they
still remember the 1700's America.

>>
>>
>> Cheers Mark.
>
>I don't think that an anti-gun person has ever convinced a pro-gun
>person of their position or vice-versa through discussion of facts or
>opinions.
> I would be glad to point out what I believe to be falsehoods in your
>post, but talk.politics.guns would be a far more appropriate place to do
>so than an automotive newsgroup, wouldn't you agree?
>
>Pat
One last comment: America has had very strict gun control laws:

Blacks were not allowed to own guns under the Jim Crow laws. That is
why it was possible to sugjugate them.

XS11E wrote:
> pws > wrote in
> news >
>
>>but talk.politics.guns would be a far more appropriate place
>>to do so than an automotive newsgroup, wouldn't you agree?
>
>
> Yes and I'd like to apologise to the group for starting this thread
> although how it ever got from "I'm afraid someone will steal my
> handicap placard if I hang it on the rear view mirror with the top
> down" to a discussion of crime rates, etc. is confusing but typical of
> newsgroups.
>

I wasn't trying to be a netcop, almost every regular here has
participated in completely OT discussions numerous times, myself
included. There is certainly no need to apologize to me. :-)

Pat

Hi Pat,

You are right there's a time and a place,
I was not intending to try and change Jims mind,
But also I do not want people to have the wrong impression of violent crimes
and gun control here in Europe, the Uk specifically.
If someone posts a thread that I believe inaccurate then I will try to let
people know what I feel are the discrepancies.

Jim.

Airport Police have different regulations with regard to guns, in the UK
airport police are authorised to carry guns,
The fact is that the Uk police policy of not carrying firearms during day to
day tasks is pretty rare, I cannot off the top of my head think of another
country that doesn't arm its day to day police force.
My argument was not against all firearms, hunting rifles serve a purpose and
are ok in my book, my believe is that no one has ever convinced me of any
justifiable reason for a regular member of the public to own a handgun. you
cannot hunt with them reliably, the only purpose they serve is to be
concealed up until the point of being shot.

Cheers Mark.


"BallroomDancer" > wrote in message
news:d7jWd.47319$7z6.33220@lakeread04...
>
> "gixer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Your reports on gun crimes in the UK are wrong we do have gun crimes, but
>> they are very very rare against individuals, guns are usually used to rob
>> banks etc, violent crimes rates are high, but there is nothing more the
>> Brits love more than to get ****ed and have a good punch up.
>> Of course the only thing is that if someone carry's a gun around and get
>> ****ed off at someone, there's a good chance they are going to shoot
>> them, if you add alcohol and youth into the equation it becomes even more
>> crazy, to my mind there should be no circumstances what so ever where a
>> member of the public should carry a handgun, you want to hunt no problem
>> use a rifle.
>> I do not understand what your German friend is talking about, it is
>> virtually unheard of for a police chase to be stopped by shooting.
>> In the Uk the police do not carry guns, and even when asked if they would
>> like to carry guns, they vast majority voted against it.
>> It is a long drawn out argument over gun control, buy my believe is that
>> all handguns they are wrong and there should be no reason at all for
>> anyone to posses one, they are designed, manufactured and produced for
>> the specific purpose of killing another human at very close quarters.
>> As history has shown the public being armed is not a deterrent, it just
>> makes the criminals carry more powerful guns.
>> And in no way shape of form should America ever be used as an example of
>> appropriate control of firearms, Americans are killing more Americans,
>> that even a mass murderer on Hitler's scale would be proud of, it is
>> absolutely crazy.
> Actually, I'm glad to hear that my news sources are not backed up by
> someone "on the scene." I have run into this in my travels overseas in
> past years, my parents being afraid for me because of where I was - when
> where I was actually was peaceful.
> I do know that German police were armed when I was in the country. Those
> at the airport carried M-16 rifles, the motorcycle road police were armed
> with Uzi. I've not had the pleasure of visiting England. French airport
> police in Paris were armed with 9mm pistols.
> I'm a native of North Carolina, and have also lived in Virginia. Both
> states allow open (visible) carrying of pistols in public with some
> limitations (i.e. no banks, bars, airports, courthouses, etc.) Concealed
> carry is permitted with permits (again, with limitations as above) - usual
> process of geting a permit is a written request to the local sheriff or
> police chief, it is also required that one go through a course in weapon
> use and safety. Fingerprints are taken. The largest city where I have
> lived is the Norfolk-Virginia Beach area called "Tidewater", and armed
> crime there is a rarity in comparision to the total population.
> I know from news media accounts that California police ran into the
> problem a few years ago that the crminials were armed better than law
> enforcement, but this has been rectified.
> Unfortunately, times have changed here also - when I was a youth in high
> school, it was quite common during deer season for a number of the boys to
> drive the family truck to school, with the .30-06 rifle (or whatever other
> hunting weapon) on a rack inside the cab of the truck, so that they could
> immediately go hunting after school. At that time, there was virtually no
> likelihood of a kid doing things like happened at Columbine. Personally, I
> believe that the major reason was a different attitude of the public at
> that time, and a much lower usage of drugs in the general population. I
> was taught how to shoot by by grandfather, had my first (bb air gun) gun
> by the time I was 8, and just grew up in a different culture.
> Each to their own view - I only get cross with those who are determined to
> enforce their will over my own. We have politicians in this country who
> are strongly against any right by the average citizen to own a gun - and
> many of these politicians at the higher level go to their jobs in Congress
> in a limo with an armed driver - seems like hipocrisy.
> Jim
>
>

Just for your interest.

Switzerland keeps only a small standing army, and relies much more heavily
on its militia system for national defence.
This means that most able-bodied civilian men of military age keep weapons
at home in case of a national emergency.
These weapons are fully automatic, military assault rifles, and by law they
must be kept locked up.
Their issue of 72 rounds of ammunition must be sealed, and it is strictly
accounted for.
This complicates their use for criminal purposes, in that they are difficult
to conceal, and their use will be eventually discovered by the authorities..
As for civilian weapons, the cantons (states) issue licenses for handgun
purchases on a "must issue" basis.
Most, but not all, cantons require handgun registration. Any ammunition
bought on the private market is also registered. Ammunition can be bought
unregistered at government subsidized shooting ranges, but, by law, one must
use all the ammunition at the range.

Despite these regulations, Switzerland has the second highest handgun
ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world. A review of
the statistics:
Percent of households with a handgun, 1991 (1)

United States 29%
Switzerland 14
Finland 7
Germany 7
Belgium 6
France 6
Canada 5
Norway 4
Europe 4
Australia 2
Netherlands 2
United Kingdom 1

Handgun murders (1992) (2)

Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder
Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000)
-----------------------------------------------------------
United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42
Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47
Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42
Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07
United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06
Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05By contrast, Germany, France,
Canada, Great Britain and Japan have virtually banned handguns and assault
weapons to the general public.

I just copied and pasted this from
http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/L-switzerland.htm so take a look.

Who are you to say if someone should be killed or not? that is why we have
courts of law and not gangs of vigilantes running around.

My comment with regard to Hitler was in relation to the amount of handgun
murders, not the reason. There is no justifiable reason to murder anyone, no
matter if they Jewish, Homosexual, or banging your Mrs.

As long as people are not shooting people who cares why we don't have
handguns? and I never said people in England are peaceful, if you reread my
post you will see I actually said the opposite, the differences we don't use
handguns we use our fists.

Cheers Mark.


> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:01:56 GMT, pws > wrote:
>
> What does this have to do with Automobiles? Other than avoiding
> getting carjacked?
>
>>gixer wrote:
>>> Hi Jim,
>>>
>>> Your reports on gun crimes in the UK are wrong we do have gun crimes,
>>> but
>>> they are very very rare against individuals, guns are usually used to
>>> rob
>>> banks etc, violent crimes rates are high, but there is nothing more the
>>> Brits love more than to get ****ed and have a good punch up.
>>> Of course the only thing is that if someone carry's a gun around and get
>>> ****ed off at someone, there's a good chance they are going to shoot
>>> them,
>>> if you add alcohol and youth into the equation it becomes even more
>>> crazy,
>
> The Swiss all have guns in their homes. Required by Law. They are a
> very polite society. Botswana and the Bahamas have the highest murder
> rates in the world. both are ex-british colonies with restrictive gun
> laws.
>
>>> to my mind there should be no circumstances what so ever where a member
>>> of
>>> the public should carry a handgun, you want to hunt no problem use a
>>> rifle.
>
> In Britain, burgleries are committed when the occupants are at home.
> In the US, homes are targetted when the occupants are away.
>
>
>>> I do not understand what your German friend is talking about, it is
>>> virtually unheard of for a police chase to be stopped by shooting.
>>> In the Uk the police do not carry guns, and even when asked if they
>>> would
>>> like to carry guns, they vast majority voted against it.
>>> It is a long drawn out argument over gun control, buy my believe is
>>> that
>>> all handguns they are wrong and there should be no reason at all for
>>> anyone
>>> to posses one, they are designed, manufactured and produced for the
>>> specific
>>> purpose of killing another human at very close quarters.
>
> Some human beings do deserve being killed.
>
> Statistical data in the US shows that an unarmed rape vitcitm is much
> more likely to be injured that an armed woman.
>
>>> As history has shown the public being armed is not a deterrent, it just
>>> makes the criminals carry more powerful guns.
>
> Bunk. See the Swiss example.
>
>>> And in no way shape of form should America ever be used as an example of
>>> appropriate control of firearms, Americans are killing more Americans,
>>> that
>>> even a mass murderer on Hitler's scale would be proud of, it is
>>> absolutely
>>> crazy.
>
>
> Total bull****. Hitler systematically murderd 14 million human beings
> starting with the mentally infirm, then the homosexuals, the jews, and
> the catholics. That you equate that to the distorted view the press
> proviedes makes your judgement suspect.
>
> As for the peacefulness of Brittain. Their government began
> disarming the citizenry after World War two because the ruling class
> was afraid they would be confronted with an irate public is 30's
> depression returned, public safety had nothing to do with it.
> Assuring the pertetuity of the ruling class, everything. I guess they
> still remember the 1700's America.
>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers Mark.
>>
>>I don't think that an anti-gun person has ever convinced a pro-gun
>>person of their position or vice-versa through discussion of facts or
>>opinions.
>> I would be glad to point out what I believe to be falsehoods in your
>>post, but talk.politics.guns would be a far more appropriate place to do
>>so than an automotive newsgroup, wouldn't you agree?
>>
>>Pat
> One last comment: America has had very strict gun control laws:
>
> Blacks were not allowed to own guns under the Jim Crow laws. That is
> why it was possible to sugjugate them.
>
>

wrote:

>Some human beings do deserve being killed.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Leon

--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)