driving question, re oversteering

Hi,
Suppose you're driving on asphalt.
In a rear wheel drive car like the miata, if you go into a turn too fast,
and
the back starts to slide, what's the safest way to correct? I'm pretty sure
you want to stay off the brakes because that would throw more weight
forward and lighted rear traction even more.
Should you give more power and reverse steer, of maintain power and
steer into the spin like you would if you were slipping on ice?
Thanks
Mike

In article >,
"~Mike Hollywood" > wrote:

> Should you give more power and reverse steer, of maintain power and
> steer into the spin like you would if you were slipping on ice?

The most likely reason you're sliding is because you panicked and let
off the gas and/or hit the brakes. Increase throttle just enough to
transfer more weight aft and stop the yaw. This is counterintuitive, of
course, and you probably won't pull it off unless you've trained your
muscles to act faster than your brain, by getting some track instruction
and doing it under controlled conditions. Until you're trained, make
sure you give yourself plenty of room to brake before entering the
corner.

If the tail gets truly hung out past saving, push in the clutch and lock
all four wheels by standing on the brake pedal as hard as you can;
you'll still spin, but it will improve your chances of staying on the
road and out of the trees. Even better, take it a little slower so you
won't need to discover where that point it.

In article >,
Lanny Chambers > wrote:

> If the tail gets truly hung out past saving, push in the clutch and lock
> all four wheels by standing on the brake pedal as hard as you can;
> you'll still spin, but it will improve your chances of staying on the
> road and out of the trees. Even better, take it a little slower so you
> won't need to discover where that point it.

'Tweren't in a Miata (actually an '82 626) but BTDT. Nothin' quite as
pucker-inducing as hitting a turn just an RCH too fast, oozing to the
outside, and then feeling the ass end catch gravel and come loose.

Unless it's the feeling of "Aw, ****, I'm doin' everything right to
recover, but even so, there's no way in hell I'm gonna be able to pull
this out, and I'm gettin' mighty damn close to that roughly 300 foot
sheer drop to the lake below!"

Standing on clutch and brake managed to change it from "smash through
the guardrail and plummet" to "two rotations and come to a stop facing
the wrong way in my original lane".

(And for the record, from that time on, I made it a point to hit that
turn about 10 mph slower...)

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

On Oct 2, 4:29 pm, "~Mike Hollywood" > wrote:
> Hi,
> Suppose you're driving on asphalt.
> In a rear wheel drive car like the miata, if you go into a turn too fast,
> and
> the back starts to slide, what's the safest way to correct? I'm pretty sure
> you want to stay off the brakes because that would throw more weight
> forward and lighted rear traction even more.
> Should you give more power and reverse steer, of maintain power and
> steer into the spin like you would if you were slipping on ice?
> Thanks
> Mike

The rest of these guys pretty much have it right, and you seem to
already get the physics of it, but be careful in a Miata. The Miata,
unlike a LOT of RWD cars, has a fairly neutral steer. This means that
if you're drifting, it's likely to be a four-wheel, not two wheel
drift (oversteer = rear wheel only drift, of course typical in a RWD
car). The best way to learn how to control a four-wheel drift,
especially in a Miata, is to go four-wheel drifting. Buuuut....most
of us aren't rich enough to afford a driving school, especially one
that would let us drive our Miata.

The poor man's solution follows: if you can stand the dust, find a
safe, flat, dirt parking lot and set up cones. Or find some very nice
but wet pavement, and set up cones. Throw yourself "out of control"
in as many different ways as you can think of, and try all the
suggestions here. Once you find the ones that work really well, do
them over and over again, until you don't even realize you were in a
(over)steer until you've already corrected it. Note that both of the
above terrains work differently from each other and ice, snow, leaves,
etc. Remember "mu" from physics class? Yeah!

My best tip for this kind of driving: "don't be afraid of the
throttle." If you trail throttle (go from throttling to zero throttle
quickly), you throw weight forward and the back end comes out. But
you already knew that ;-). Also, using moderate throttle modulation
can give you precise control over the angle of the slide. Actually,
careful not to "trail clutch," i.e. snap the clutch up, either. This
will engage a sort of transmission-based braking as well...

Note: This sort of driving may be illegal in your area, please consult
with the local authorities before attempting the above. ;-)

-r0ll

ok, so the best bet is to stop powering altogether, by getting
off the gas pedal and putting in the clutch,
and locking all 4 wheels. So what kind of steering input do you do?
Thanks,
Mike







"Don Bruder" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Lanny Chambers > wrote:
>
>> If the tail gets truly hung out past saving, push in the clutch and lock
>> all four wheels by standing on the brake pedal as hard as you can;
>> you'll still spin, but it will improve your chances of staying on the
>> road and out of the trees. Even better, take it a little slower so you
>> won't need to discover where that point it.
>
> 'Tweren't in a Miata (actually an '82 626) but BTDT. Nothin' quite as
> pucker-inducing as hitting a turn just an RCH too fast, oozing to the
> outside, and then feeling the ass end catch gravel and come loose.
>
> Unless it's the feeling of "Aw, ****, I'm doin' everything right to
> recover, but even so, there's no way in hell I'm gonna be able to pull
> this out, and I'm gettin' mighty damn close to that roughly 300 foot
> sheer drop to the lake below!"
>
> Standing on clutch and brake managed to change it from "smash through
> the guardrail and plummet" to "two rotations and come to a stop facing
> the wrong way in my original lane".
>
> (And for the record, from that time on, I made it a point to hit that
> turn about 10 mph slower...)
>
> --
> Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my
> whitelist,
> or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text
> "PopperAndShadow"
> somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without
> my
> ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more
> info

thanks, i had just replied to Don's suggestion before I read yours
and -r0ll's. I didn't realize that getting on the gas would load the rear
tires, but once you mentioned it the light went on.
Thanks again,
mike

"pws" > wrote in message
...
> ~Mike Hollywood wrote:
>> Hi,
>
> Hi!
>
>> Suppose you're driving on asphalt.
>
> I do that once in a while. :-)
>
>> In a rear wheel drive car like the miata, if you go into a turn too fast,
>> and
>> the back starts to slide, what's the safest way to correct? I'm pretty
>> sure
>> you want to stay off the brakes because that would throw more weight
>> forward and lighted rear traction even more.
>
> Correct, you want more weight in the rear, which involves accelerating
> while turning into the spin. The amount of acceleration varies depending
> on many factors.
> Braking is the worst thing to do once the rear of your car wants to swap
> places with the front end.
>
>> Should you give more power and reverse steer, of maintain power and
>> steer into the spin like you would if you were slipping on ice?
>> Thanks
>> Mike
>
> You always steer into the spin, whether on wet asphalt, ice, or whatever.
> The Miata allows for quite a bit of throttle steer as well. It just takes
> practice, too much acceleration or too much steering into the turn will
> have bad results as well.
>
> The ultimate is to go to a good driving school. Autocross runs help too,
> but a large open parking lot and some sacrificial tires can teach you a
> lot about the limits and recovery abilities of your Miata.
>
> Pat

Hi,
thanks for expaining things.
Driving school is kinda out of my reach,
so I'll probably never get to try this, but
I really appreciate you taking the time to
explain it to me.
Mike

"pws" > wrote in message
...
> ~Mike Hollywood wrote:
>> Hi,
>
> Hi!
>
>> Suppose you're driving on asphalt.
>
> I do that once in a while. :-)
>
>> In a rear wheel drive car like the miata, if you go into a turn too fast,
>> and
>> the back starts to slide, what's the safest way to correct? I'm pretty
>> sure
>> you want to stay off the brakes because that would throw more weight
>> forward and lighted rear traction even more.
>
> Correct, you want more weight in the rear, which involves accelerating
> while turning into the spin. The amount of acceleration varies depending
> on many factors.
> Braking is the worst thing to do once the rear of your car wants to swap
> places with the front end.
>
>> Should you give more power and reverse steer, of maintain power and
>> steer into the spin like you would if you were slipping on ice?
>> Thanks
>> Mike
>
> You always steer into the spin, whether on wet asphalt, ice, or whatever.
> The Miata allows for quite a bit of throttle steer as well. It just takes
> practice, too much acceleration or too much steering into the turn will
> have bad results as well.
>
> The ultimate is to go to a good driving school. Autocross runs help too,
> but a large open parking lot and some sacrificial tires can teach you a
> lot about the limits and recovery abilities of your Miata.
>
> Pat

On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:32:47 -0500, pws > wrote:

>.... I have yet to spin a Miata in almost 9 years of driving one.

So that includes no track time? 8

-- Larry

In article >,
"~Mike Hollywood" > wrote:

> ok, so the best bet is to stop powering altogether, by getting
> off the gas pedal and putting in the clutch,
> and locking all 4 wheels. So what kind of steering input do you do?

You misunderstand. "Both feet in" is what you do once you've realized
you can't save the car from a spin. You can't steer, because all four
tires are locked and sliding. The car is ballistic, but its slide is
predictable and fairly short. All this does is improve your chances of
not leaving the road and getting killed. In fact, I imagine lots of
lives would be saved if people would stop trying to save it earlier, and
just ride it out with locked wheels.

So, when should you give up? Unfortunately, the only teacher is
experience--you gotta spin a few to learn. When I suggested track
instruction, I didn't mean a formal driving school like Barber or
Bondurant. Many road courses (and some Miata clubs) offer open track
days, with volunteer instructors who ride with you and coach you around
the track. The cost is typically $200-400 for a full day, and is the
absolute best buy for your performance dollar. If you really want to go
faster, a day at the track is worth more than all the intakes, exhausts,
and other doodads you can add to a Miata. It's also even more fun than
you would imagine.

Note that most tracks require a real rollbar in convertibles. If you
can't swing that, maybe you could share a car with another Miata owner.
There are good possibilities for birthday or Christmas gifts here...

pws > wrote:

> Driving school is always great if you can afford it, but there
> will always be some people that grasp it naturally and others that
> no amount of training will make them a great driver.

That last group lives here and most of them were out on the streets
today! :-(


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