IRacing, Safety Rating and fear factor

> .................................................. ..................With regards to the
> "rental" thing, have you read the EULA on any other titles installed
> on your PC? Reads very similar, you'll find.



But with virtually all of the titles installed on my PC, I can
continue to play them after the publisher goes out of business -
although perhaps only in an offline single-player mode. I'm afraid
this is not possible with iRacing. I think that is what people mean
when they talk about "renting" iRacing.

On Aug 27, 1:17*pm, wrote:
> > .................................................. ..................With regards to the
> > "rental" thing, have you read the EULA on any other titles installed
> > on your PC? Reads very similar, you'll find.
>
> But with virtually all of the titles installed on my PC, I can
> continue to play them after the publisher goes out of business -
> although perhaps only in an offline single-player mode. *I'm afraid
> this is not possible withiRacing. *I think that is what people mean
> when they talk about "renting"iRacing.

Not legally. Most, if not all EULA's state that they are allowing you
to use their software in the manner they say - and they have the right
to change what they say at any time. Sure, nobody that I can recall
has actually done it, but the EULA (depending on what a judge says, as
always) could allow them to pull the plug quite easily.

I guess i just accepted this type of thing better, I played EVE-Online
for years and it's a similar type of development, launch, payment and
EULA.

> Yes, most incidents are caused by off track.
> With regards to the "rental" thing, have you read the EULA
> on any other titles installed on your PC?

Off-topic - EULA's are almost worthless in most states of the USA,
and completely worthless in the remaining states. In the USA,
a contract requires a witness or a signature.

On Aug 27, 5:12*pm, "jeffareid" > wrote:
> > Yes, most incidents are caused by off track.
> > With regards to the "rental" thing, have you read the EULA
> > on any other titles installed on your PC?
>
> Off-topic - EULA's are almost worthless in most states of the USA,
> and completely worthless in the remaining states. In the USA,
> a contract requires a witness or a signature.

Banks, the guys who handle the most money, accept an X in a text
field. Bank of America account creation requires nothing more than
that to be legally obligated.

Yeah, I know: A bunch of the sim racing guys are exploiters, and would
figure out how to maintain their silly driving style with the least
impact on their SR.

However, I think this is one of the huge challenges of online racing: If
rFactor had a good way of evaluating an accident automatically, and it
could be enforced with flags, open online racing would appear very, very
differently.

If I wanted one single aspect of rFactor improved, it'd be the automatic
marshalling of races in a predictable and fair way. I don't think it'd
be very hard to do this, but the developpers need to know that there is
a need for it.

Maybe this is a task for the plug-in developpers to take on... It'd be
very interesting to put together a server-side plug-in that takes into
account aspects of general importance:
- Velocity vectors, relative speeds and direction (is the driver
behind trying to avoid the car in front?
- Braking patterns/behaviour just prior to the event (Is the car in
front trying to stop his car from rotating?)
- Braking points based on statistics and comparison of actual braking
to statistics
- Comparison of "stastic line" and "actual line"

It is not too tough to put together all this into a package, with the
possibilty adjust settings by way of a ini-file (so that you can create
setups for open racing, league racing etc etc)...

-A-

On 25.08.2008 16:36, * Tim Wheatley wrote:
> On Aug 25, 8:57 am, Asgeir Nesoen > wrote:
>> It outght to be fairly easy to build a system where the most rudimentary
>> info was considered, like, position on road, speed relative to average
>> speed at the point, if brakes are used heavily the moments before a
>> crash, relative velocity vector comparison, etc etc...
>
> It actually wouldn't be easy at all, because people would learn the
> system and use it to their advantage. Only a human can decide fault.
>
> There's some fine tuning to do, but I think the SR works very well.

"Asgeir Nesoen" > wrote in message
...
> Yeah, I know: A bunch of the sim racing guys are exploiters, and would
> figure out how to maintain their silly driving style with the least impact
> on their SR.
>
> However, I think this is one of the huge challenges of online racing: If
> rFactor had a good way of evaluating an accident automatically, and it
> could be enforced with flags, open online racing would appear very, very
> differently.
>
> If I wanted one single aspect of rFactor improved, it'd be the automatic
> marshalling of races in a predictable and fair way. I don't think it'd be
> very hard to do this, but the developpers need to know that there is a
> need for it.
>
> Maybe this is a task for the plug-in developpers to take on... It'd be
> very interesting to put together a server-side plug-in that takes into
> account aspects of general importance:

If you think implementing this sort of stuff is easy then you're
kidding yourself.

> - Velocity vectors, relative speeds and direction (is the driver behind
> trying to avoid the car in front?

What if he (the trailing car) was hit by a car from behind himself. What
if the idiot in front hits the brakes for no known reason?

> - Braking patterns/behaviour just prior to the event (Is the car in front
> trying to stop his car from rotating?)

What?

> - Braking points based on statistics and comparison of actual braking to
> statistics

Just rubbish.

> - Comparison of "stastic line" and "actual line"
>

What?

> It is not too tough to put together all this into a package, with the
> possibilty adjust settings by way of a ini-file (so that you can create
> setups for open racing, league racing etc etc)...
>

Yeah sure - it's all so simple. It's a wonder you haven't spent a half
hour or so doing it yourself!

And the other thing here is that I'd rather have the cpu power dedicated
to a better sim than all this stuff. All you need is a well run league - the
only way to sim race properly. Everything else is just fun.

A sour reply needs a sour answer.

On 28.08.2008 12:41, * Byron Forbes wrote:
>
> If you think implementing this sort of stuff is easy then you're
> kidding yourself.

If you compare this chore with the chores of making hundreds of tracks,
the hundreds of cars like the online community have done with rFactor:
Yes, I would indeed say this sort of stuff is easy.

>
>> - Velocity vectors, relative speeds and direction (is the driver behind
>> trying to avoid the car in front?
>
> What if he (the trailing car) was hit by a car from behind himself. What
> if the idiot in front hits the brakes for no known reason?

The velocity vector pattern and the braking pattern can uncover such a
situation. If the idiot in front hits his brakes, it would show when
comparing his "statistical" brake pattern with his discreet braking
pattern, and responsibility can be dished out accordingly.

>
>> - Braking patterns/behaviour just prior to the event (Is the car in front
>> trying to stop his car from rotating?)
>
> What?

Is monitoring braking patterns to determine degree of guilt a tough
thing to grasp for you? What is incomprehensible in that?

>
>> - Braking points based on statistics and comparison of actual braking to
>> statistics
>
> Just rubbish.

A well formulated argument, my friend. I see it all clear now, thanks to
your wit, your rhetoric skills and your genuine insight.

>
>> - Comparison of "stastic line" and "actual line"
>>
>
> What?

Typo there, I meant "statistic line" in comparison to "actual line".

>
>> It is not too tough to put together all this into a package, with the
>> possibilty adjust settings by way of a ini-file (so that you can create
>> setups for open racing, league racing etc etc)...
>>
>
> Yeah sure - it's all so simple. It's a wonder you haven't spent a half
> hour or so doing it yourself!

So you think a half an hour project defines what I describe as an "easy"
chore? Where did I say that? I am so glad I don't have to work with
people like you; infinately impatient, pessimistic, pointing out
problems instead of pointing out possibilities.

I am sure you've never had one single good idea, but you're one heck of
a problems shooter. I know your kind. You may think I'm labelling you,
but I'm sorry: You display all the symptoms of that label. Who can blame
me for stating the obvious.

>
> And the other thing here is that I'd rather have the cpu power dedicated
> to a better sim than all this stuff. All you need is a well run league - the
> only way to sim race properly. Everything else is just fun.
>
So you think CPU is maxed out on the dedicated servers? lol.

Your point about a well run league is fair, however. But I'm in a
situation where I'm not able to put in the time to do league racing, and
more importantly; not able to commit myself to it. I believe there are
many just like myself out there; thus making my point about a solution
in the racing incident responsibility department valid.

--A--

"Asgeir Nesoen" > wrote in message
...
>A sour reply needs a sour answer.
>

Lighten up sweety.


> On 28.08.2008 12:41, * Byron Forbes wrote:
>>
>> If you think implementing this sort of stuff is easy then you're
>> kidding yourself.
>
> If you compare this chore with the chores of making hundreds of tracks,
> the hundreds of cars like the online community have done with rFactor:
> Yes, I would indeed say this sort of stuff is easy.
>

Well lets see.

>>
>>> - Velocity vectors, relative speeds and direction (is the driver behind
>>> trying to avoid the car in front?
>>
>> What if he (the trailing car) was hit by a car from behind himself.
>> What if the idiot in front hits the brakes for no known reason?
>
> The velocity vector pattern and the braking pattern can uncover such a
> situation. If the idiot in front hits his brakes, it would show when
> comparing his "statistical" brake pattern with his discreet braking
> pattern, and responsibility can be dished out accordingly.
>

And if the "idiot" is maybe not an idiot and he is braking earlier for
any number of reasons like an incident ahead for example?

>>
>>> - Braking patterns/behaviour just prior to the event (Is the car in
>>> front trying to stop his car from rotating?)
>>
>> What?
>
> Is monitoring braking patterns to determine degree of guilt a tough thing
> to grasp for you? What is incomprehensible in that?
>

What if his tyres go off, he has a puncture, some sort of damage,
(depending on the sim there could be oil/water down etc). Again, there can
be a zillion reasons for someone to brake in a manner different to previous
laps.


>>
>>> - Braking points based on statistics and comparison of actual braking
>>> to statistics
>>
>> Just rubbish.
>
> A well formulated argument, my friend. I see it all clear now, thanks to
> your wit, your rhetoric skills and your genuine insight.
>

See above - again, there can be a zillion reasons for inconsistency
here.


>>
>>> - Comparison of "stastic line" and "actual line"
>>>
>>
>> What?
>
> Typo there, I meant "statistic line" in comparison to "actual line".
>

And again, there can be a zillion reasons to alter ones line.

>>
>>> It is not too tough to put together all this into a package, with the
>>> possibilty adjust settings by way of a ini-file (so that you can create
>>> setups for open racing, league racing etc etc)...
>>>

I can just see someone who has spent countless hours over the course of
a season being dudded by a scenario that this "easy to put together"
software has hopelessly misinterpreted. I wouldn't go near a league with
that sort of stuff in a million years.

>>
>> Yeah sure - it's all so simple. It's a wonder you haven't spent a
>> half hour or so doing it yourself!
>
> So you think a half an hour project defines what I describe as an "easy"
> chore? Where did I say that? I am so glad I don't have to work with people
> like you; infinately impatient, pessimistic, pointing out problems instead
> of pointing out possibilities.
>

Ok then, lets forge ahead oblivious to the horrendous problems! Lets
start a little software company called "**** the bugs you stinking
mongrels!"


> I am sure you've never had one single good idea, but you're one heck of a
> problems shooter. I know your kind. You may think I'm labelling you, but
> I'm sorry: You display all the symptoms of that label. Who can blame me
> for stating the obvious.
>

To bad you refuse to regognise the obvious when it comes to the
horrendous problems with what you propose.

>>
>> And the other thing here is that I'd rather have the cpu power
>> dedicated to a better sim than all this stuff. All you need is a well run
>> league - the only way to sim race properly. Everything else is just fun.
>>
> So you think CPU is maxed out on the dedicated servers? lol.
>
> Your point about a well run league is fair, however. But I'm in a
> situation where I'm not able to put in the time to do league racing, and
> more importantly; not able to commit myself to it. I believe there are
> many just like myself out there; thus making my point about a solution in
> the racing incident responsibility department valid.
>
> --A--

Well quite frankly, if you're not running in a league and you're simply
doing pickups then who really cares - iRacing should offer you more than
enough with their methods.