That little screw & nut combo on top of most steering gear boxes . . .

On 07/18/2011 05:38 PM, hls wrote:
> As others have suggested, and I echo, it is a lot
> better to leave that alone.
> If you HAVE to muck with it, do it in slow steps
> and check to see if you have accomplished anything.
>
> You will, I think, NEVER get the response out of a recirculating ball
> system that you get out of
> a rack and pinion. You just cant make a filet mignon out of a hot dog.
>
> Best regards

I dunno, my old BMW had pretty delicious steering feel...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

When running straight (mostly straight) down the road, my old clunkers
have some free play.I don't worry about it though.
cuhulin

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
> ChrisCoaster wrote:
>
>> I bring this up because a couple of years ago I was looking for ways
>> to improve tightness/feedback of the steering on my 2008 Kia Optima -
>> already both a responsive and tight driver with little need for
>> constant correction on the road.
>>
>> What I know about the subject: This screw has been used, mostly on
>> older vehicles both with/without power steering, to reduce the amount
>> of play in the steering gear before the driver's intensions are
>> translated to tires and pavement.
>>
>> What I recall from "class" - #1. Tighten conservatively!! Rack the
>> car, loosen the nut, 1/4 turn screw, retighten nut, test drive.
>>
>> #2. Repeat step #1 if and when nec.
>>
>> #3. Over tightening can bind up the steering, sometimes locally, and
>> override the functions of Caster/SAI(kingpin) to aid steering wheel
>> return. It can also result in long-term damage to the box if it's
>> overtightened.
>>
>> The rest of class I was staring out the window at that '64 Buick I'm
>> dreaming of owning one day. LOL.
>>
>> My question is: Is this something that can/should be undertaken with a
>> car less than 5 years old, less than 50,000miles and has next to no
>> play in the steering? Will it make the steering wheel "stiffer"
>> without hindering returnability?

Well if you can find a recirculating ball type gearbox on a 2008 that
has rack and pinion you ain't looking under the hood!

2008 Kia has a R&P unit. No adjustment on it.

--
Steve W.

Steve W. wrote:
> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>> ChrisCoaster wrote:
>>
>>> I bring this up because a couple of years ago I was looking for ways
>>> to improve tightness/feedback of the steering on my 2008 Kia Optima -
>>> already both a responsive and tight driver with little need for
>>> constant correction on the road.
>>>
>>> What I know about the subject: This screw has been used, mostly on
>>> older vehicles both with/without power steering, to reduce the amount
>>> of play in the steering gear before the driver's intensions are
>>> translated to tires and pavement.
>>>
>>> What I recall from "class" - #1. Tighten conservatively!! Rack the
>>> car, loosen the nut, 1/4 turn screw, retighten nut, test drive.
>>>
>>> #2. Repeat step #1 if and when nec.
>>>
>>> #3. Over tightening can bind up the steering, sometimes locally, and
>>> override the functions of Caster/SAI(kingpin) to aid steering wheel
>>> return. It can also result in long-term damage to the box if it's
>>> overtightened.
>>>
>>> The rest of class I was staring out the window at that '64 Buick I'm
>>> dreaming of owning one day. LOL.
>>>
>>> My question is: Is this something that can/should be undertaken with a
>>> car less than 5 years old, less than 50,000miles and has next to no
>>> play in the steering? Will it make the steering wheel "stiffer"
>>> without hindering returnability?
>
> Well if you can find a recirculating ball type gearbox on a 2008 that
> has rack and pinion you ain't looking under the hood!
>
> 2008 Kia has a R&P unit. No adjustment on it.
>
Exactly!

Nate Nagel > wrote:
>On 07/18/2011 05:38 PM, hls wrote:
>> As others have suggested, and I echo, it is a lot
>> better to leave that alone.
>> If you HAVE to muck with it, do it in slow steps
>> and check to see if you have accomplished anything.
>>
>> You will, I think, NEVER get the response out of a recirculating ball
>> system that you get out of
>> a rack and pinion. You just cant make a filet mignon out of a hot dog.
>>
>> Best regards
>
>I dunno, my old BMW had pretty delicious steering feel...

That's because the E28 was probably the best model BMW ever made, and you were
a fool for selling it. It's a recirculating ball mechanism, but with very
tight tolerances.

That said, because of that precision design, when the worm gear in those
becomes unevenly worn, you can get an awful lot of play in the steering.
And when you try to replace the steering box, you find the mount is cracked.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>>On 07/18/2011 05:38 PM, hls wrote:
>>> You will, I think, NEVER get the response out of a recirculating ball
>>> system that you get out of
>>> a rack and pinion. You just cant make a filet mignon out of a hot dog.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>
>>I dunno, my old BMW had pretty delicious steering feel...
>
> That's because the E28 was probably the best model BMW ever made, and you
> were
> a fool for selling it. It's a recirculating ball mechanism, but with very
> tight tolerances.
>
> That said, because of that precision design, when the worm gear in those
> becomes unevenly worn, you can get an awful lot of play in the steering.
> And when you try to replace the steering box, you find the mount is
> cracked.
> --scott

So the claim has now morphed in the direction that
the RB&N design is actually LESS rugged and MORE
prone to failure? I've replaced FAR greater numbers
of R&P units (including just about every GM power
rack in the '80s) than RB&N gearboxes, which (when
rarely necessary) got by with a simple rebuild and
were both more easily accessed and executed.

>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>>
>> That said, because of that precision design, when the worm gear in those
>> becomes unevenly worn, you can get an awful lot of play in the steering.
>> And when you try to replace the steering box, you find the mount is
>> cracked.
>
>So the claim has now morphed in the direction that
>the RB&N design is actually LESS rugged and MORE
>prone to failure?

No, the claim is that recirculating ball systems are difficult to make with
enough precision to get very low steering play. And that BMW drivers are
less willing to put up with excessive play than Cadillac drivers are.

The fact that BMW under-engineered the mounting is a different issue.

>I've replaced FAR greater numbers
>of R&P units (including just about every GM power
>rack in the '80s) than RB&N gearboxes, which (when
>rarely necessary) got by with a simple rebuild and
>were both more easily accessed and executed.

Sure, but the GM recirculating ball systems had outrageous amounts of play
in them. But then, come to think of it, so did the GM rack and pinion systems
in the eighties too.

In the case of the BMW, people get upset when they get to around 250,000 miles
and the recirculating ball box can no longer be adjusted properly and needs
replacement. In the case of the GM from the same era, people are amazed when
they get to half that and still run....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Jul 20, 10:50*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
> >On 07/18/2011 05:38 PM, hls wrote:
> >> As others have suggested, and I echo, it is a lot
> >> better to leave that alone.
> >> If you HAVE to muck with it, do it in slow steps
> >> and check to see if you have accomplished anything.
>
> >> You will, I think, NEVER get the response out of a recirculating ball
> >> system that you get out of
> >> a rack and pinion. You just cant make a filet mignon out of a hot dog.
>
> >> Best regards
>
> >I dunno, my old BMW had pretty delicious steering feel...
>
> That's because the E28 was probably the best model BMW ever made, and you were
> a fool for selling it. *It's a recirculating ball mechanism, but with very
> tight tolerances.
>
> That said, because of that precision design, when the worm gear in those
> becomes unevenly worn, you can get an awful lot of play in the steering. *
> And when you try to replace the steering box, you find the mount is cracked.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

eh, if you say so... the thing had 200K+ miles on it, I'd managed to
spin a bearing, and both the suspension and driveshaft were slap wore
out. I did have the engine replaced w/ a junkyard one, but it had
some weird electrical fault afterwards where it would just die when it
was hot, and the shop that had done the engine replacement couldn't
find it. And it still had the original TRX wheels.

Emotionally, if I could have afforded to keep it I certainly would
have - I'm sure the fault could have been fixed, but the investment
required to get it to pass a safety inspection was more than the car
was worth, and I wasn't particularly affluent back then. I'm not
particularly affluent *now* but I was really feeling it back then.
Only reason I bought it was because I suspected that my old, beat up
GTI was going to need replacement soon, but I ended up keeping that
car for another few years of daily use until I sold it and bought a
cheap Scirocco that I also used for years and years... now THAT was
the car I shouldn't have sold, even if the Bimmer was nicer looking.

The sad thing is that the 535i while purchased in Ohio, had a damn
near pristine body and interior. Gunmetal grey with red leather. If
it'd been a 3.0 or 6er I probably would have just parked it at my
dad's place with instructions never to sell it, and I'd have come back
to it when I had more funds available.

nate

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> >"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> That said, because of that precision design, when the worm gear in those
>>> becomes unevenly worn, you can get an awful lot of play in the steering.
>>> And when you try to replace the steering box, you find the mount is
>>> cracked.
>>
>>So the claim has now morphed in the direction that
>>the RB&N design is actually LESS rugged and MORE
>>prone to failure?
>
> No, the claim is that recirculating ball systems are difficult to make
> with
> enough precision to get very low steering play.

Chrysler, already notorious for poor R&P designs
(see below), didn't seem to have a precision issue
with the RB&N system on the Crossfire in pleasing
these reviewers:
"The Crossfire's quick and precise steering requires
only 3.1 turns to travel from lock-to-lock. It is power
assisted, but only to the point of enabling parking
chores to be undertaken without the need to thrust
a dose of muscle generating spinach down one's
throat. The steering assist allows plenty of road-
feel to seep into the hands of a driver - further
enhancing the Crossfire's ability to please when
the road less traveled is chosen".
http://www.auto123.com/en/chrysler/c...tid=23883&pg=5

> And that BMW drivers are
> less willing to put up with excessive play than Cadillac drivers are.
>
> The fact that BMW under-engineered the mounting is a different issue.
>
>>I've replaced FAR greater numbers
>>of R&P units (including just about every GM power
>>rack in the '80s) than RB&N gearboxes, which (when
>>rarely necessary) got by with a simple rebuild and
>>were both more easily accessed and executed.
>
> Sure, but the GM recirculating ball systems had outrageous amounts of play
> in them. But then, come to think of it, so did the GM rack and pinion
> systems
> in the eighties too.

Check out the aforementioned R&P unit commonly
used on Chyrsler LH models below for another
horrible, and more recent, example.
http://www.dontbuydodgechryslervehic...g_problems.htm

> In the case of the BMW, people get upset when they get to around 250,000
> miles
> and the recirculating ball box can no longer be adjusted properly and
> needs
> replacement.

By which time they likely would have been on at least
their second, well worn and backlash laden, R&P already.

> In the case of the GM from the same era, people are amazed when
> they get to half that and still run....

.... albeit unable to either comfortably or safely steer.

Q.E.D.