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#11
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"Dana Rohleder" > wrote in message ... > I'm getting into this conversation a little late, but here goes. I have a > 2002 LW300 (V6), that I use for primarily highway driving. I typically > change my mineral oil every 3-4K miles. Last oil change I decided to try a > full synthetic, and will change at the oil change light's recommendation, what is the oil change light? and how does it work? > probably every 6k. I did this for one reason - MY TIME. Whether I change it > myself or let the dealer do it, I figure I will be wasting half as much of > my time, which I feel is worth more than the cost difference. > Will you use the time saved to better purpose? or will it be wasted working to pay the cost of time saved? The tax burden on both the service you purchase and the income you make may consume the value of any time saved and may even mean a net loss of time vs. DIY, but that is a personal calculation and another discussion. > The Saturn service dept. seemed pretty squeamish about me using synthetic, > saying that with the smaller molecular structure, you can develop leaks that > weren't there before. They didn't say not to, but it seemed like they knew > something that they didn't want to tell me (like 'Don't buy this vehicle, we > are going to discontinue them in a couple years and you won't get **** for > resale!'). I wonder if they were thinking about increased blow-by if the > ring design tolerances simply aren't up to snuff with synthetics. This > seemed a little absurd on a motor with 55k on it, so I ignored them and > switched. > > The other day (~2000 miles later) just by accident, I noticed a puff of oily > smoke at startup. I started the car with the A/C on which gives it a bit of > a jolt when the compressor kicks in, which may have been a contributing > factor. I am going to keep an eye on the exhaust at startup and my oil > consumption to see what happens. I would like to stick with the synthetic > simply to save time and cut down on the use of oil products. > IMHO a puff of oil at startup is usually from oil that has leaked past the valve seals and worn valve guides and not the rings. It may be a factor of the smaller molecule size or viscosity? > Europeans have long used 6000k miles plus as their oil change interval with > mineral oil and double that with synthetics, likely because of the expense. > But to me it makes good sense to not treat any oil like tapwater since it is > a limited resource. Instead, we should be insisting on engines that are > designed for longer oil change intervals, and corresponding lubricant > designs to complement these engines. After 120 years, they can't find > something other than fossil oil for lubrication?? It seems like they should > be able to run your oil through a machine that reclaims it, cleans it, adds > a few additives, then pumps it right back into your oilpan. Then maybe after > several cleanings you recycle it as we do now, and replace it. Couldn't an > oil filter be designed that you replace every 6k and reconditions the oil? > No, the auto industry instead tries to add DVD players, redundant safety > systems, and develops vehicles capable of 140-180 mph on the street, (????) > all increasing consumption and decreasing efficiency. It's the 60's all over > again. Having lived through it, I am bracing for the reality that set in the > 70's - waiting in line to buy gas on alternate days based on the last digit > of your plate number, having your vacations designed around where & when you > can buy gas, 2 ton vehicles with 120 Hp engines with 80 mph top speeds. > I understand that we can and do re-refine used oil but that it requires the use of a cracking tower similar to that used for refining crude. These re-refineries do exist but are a questionable business proposition due to the cost of oil collection and the problems of contamination with PCBs etc. It is currently cheaper to refine new crude but I think this is changing as the price of both new crude and the disposal of used oil increases. I am sure that it will become more common as oil runs out and is part of the discussion of "peak oil". Some large trucking companies mix used (filtered) oil with diesel fuel and burn it as fuel which is an elegant solution but can cause increased opacity especially if used in too high a concentration. > But I'll get off that rant. What I meant to add to the discussion that > hasn't been brought up is the myriad types and qualities of gasolines out > there across the country. The discussion seems to be focusing simply on > engine temp, oil change intervals, and synth vs fossil oils and the effects > on sludge/varnish and engine wear. But I would advise that you should also > look at the gasoline additives and quality - after all, over 6k miles you > are dumping 250-300 GALLONS of gasoline into the system and thousands of > cubic feet of polluted/dirty AIR and burning it. I think that has a lot more > to do with sludge and oil change intervals than the type of oil you use. > Think of the crap that is left behind after the gasoline/air/oil mix > combusts - the oil is there to catch some of it. I think the only way you > can discuss the issue of oil change intervals is after a thorough > investigation of gasoline additive/contaminants and how THEY affect both > types of oil. We can't scrutinize the oils types to the Nth degree with > regard to quality and additives, then run 250 gallons of gasoline of unknown > quality, consistency, and purity through the system, as well as air with a > myriad of dirt and pollutants and judge the relative merits of fossil vs > synth. I submit that the useful engine life of American vehicles may depend > more on the gasoline and air we run through them than the oils we use to > lubricate them. Thoughts? > Good big picture thinking. IMHE 6000km @ 6.4lt/100km =408lt / 4 = approx 100 USgal. I am under the (anecdotal,uninformed and perhaps faulty) impression that Canadian gas is better than US gas. I understand that sulfur is one of the major contaminants in fuel and that it is being reduced with recent laws in both of our countries and that the manufactures concur that if we had cleaner fuel that both our engines and our exhausts would be cleaner and our engines would last longer. Until we do get better gas we still have the problem of removing the byproducts of the combustion of dirty fuel and lube oil from our engines in order to maximize their service life and minimize the consumption of both fuel and oil. The best way to do this is by driving lighter vehicles and fewer miles but that is also another discussion. Just my .02 YMMV |
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#12
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"Dana Rohleder" > wrote in message ... > I'm getting into this conversation a little late, but here goes. I have a > 2002 LW300 (V6), that I use for primarily highway driving. I typically > change my mineral oil every 3-4K miles. Last oil change I decided to try a > full synthetic, and will change at the oil change light's recommendation, what is the oil change light? and how does it work? > probably every 6k. I did this for one reason - MY TIME. Whether I change it > myself or let the dealer do it, I figure I will be wasting half as much of > my time, which I feel is worth more than the cost difference. > Will you use the time saved to better purpose? or will it be wasted working to pay the cost of time saved? The tax burden on both the service you purchase and the income you make may consume the value of any time saved and may even mean a net loss of time vs. DIY, but that is a personal calculation and another discussion. > The Saturn service dept. seemed pretty squeamish about me using synthetic, > saying that with the smaller molecular structure, you can develop leaks that > weren't there before. They didn't say not to, but it seemed like they knew > something that they didn't want to tell me (like 'Don't buy this vehicle, we > are going to discontinue them in a couple years and you won't get **** for > resale!'). I wonder if they were thinking about increased blow-by if the > ring design tolerances simply aren't up to snuff with synthetics. This > seemed a little absurd on a motor with 55k on it, so I ignored them and > switched. > > The other day (~2000 miles later) just by accident, I noticed a puff of oily > smoke at startup. I started the car with the A/C on which gives it a bit of > a jolt when the compressor kicks in, which may have been a contributing > factor. I am going to keep an eye on the exhaust at startup and my oil > consumption to see what happens. I would like to stick with the synthetic > simply to save time and cut down on the use of oil products. > IMHO a puff of oil at startup is usually from oil that has leaked past the valve seals and worn valve guides and not the rings. It may be a factor of the smaller molecule size or viscosity? > Europeans have long used 6000k miles plus as their oil change interval with > mineral oil and double that with synthetics, likely because of the expense. > But to me it makes good sense to not treat any oil like tapwater since it is > a limited resource. Instead, we should be insisting on engines that are > designed for longer oil change intervals, and corresponding lubricant > designs to complement these engines. After 120 years, they can't find > something other than fossil oil for lubrication?? It seems like they should > be able to run your oil through a machine that reclaims it, cleans it, adds > a few additives, then pumps it right back into your oilpan. Then maybe after > several cleanings you recycle it as we do now, and replace it. Couldn't an > oil filter be designed that you replace every 6k and reconditions the oil? > No, the auto industry instead tries to add DVD players, redundant safety > systems, and develops vehicles capable of 140-180 mph on the street, (????) > all increasing consumption and decreasing efficiency. It's the 60's all over > again. Having lived through it, I am bracing for the reality that set in the > 70's - waiting in line to buy gas on alternate days based on the last digit > of your plate number, having your vacations designed around where & when you > can buy gas, 2 ton vehicles with 120 Hp engines with 80 mph top speeds. > I understand that we can and do re-refine used oil but that it requires the use of a cracking tower similar to that used for refining crude. These re-refineries do exist but are a questionable business proposition due to the cost of oil collection and the problems of contamination with PCBs etc. It is currently cheaper to refine new crude but I think this is changing as the price of both new crude and the disposal of used oil increases. I am sure that it will become more common as oil runs out and is part of the discussion of "peak oil". Some large trucking companies mix used (filtered) oil with diesel fuel and burn it as fuel which is an elegant solution but can cause increased opacity especially if used in too high a concentration. > But I'll get off that rant. What I meant to add to the discussion that > hasn't been brought up is the myriad types and qualities of gasolines out > there across the country. The discussion seems to be focusing simply on > engine temp, oil change intervals, and synth vs fossil oils and the effects > on sludge/varnish and engine wear. But I would advise that you should also > look at the gasoline additives and quality - after all, over 6k miles you > are dumping 250-300 GALLONS of gasoline into the system and thousands of > cubic feet of polluted/dirty AIR and burning it. I think that has a lot more > to do with sludge and oil change intervals than the type of oil you use. > Think of the crap that is left behind after the gasoline/air/oil mix > combusts - the oil is there to catch some of it. I think the only way you > can discuss the issue of oil change intervals is after a thorough > investigation of gasoline additive/contaminants and how THEY affect both > types of oil. We can't scrutinize the oils types to the Nth degree with > regard to quality and additives, then run 250 gallons of gasoline of unknown > quality, consistency, and purity through the system, as well as air with a > myriad of dirt and pollutants and judge the relative merits of fossil vs > synth. I submit that the useful engine life of American vehicles may depend > more on the gasoline and air we run through them than the oils we use to > lubricate them. Thoughts? > Good big picture thinking. IMHE 6000km @ 6.4lt/100km =408lt / 4 = approx 100 USgal. I am under the (anecdotal,uninformed and perhaps faulty) impression that Canadian gas is better than US gas. I understand that sulfur is one of the major contaminants in fuel and that it is being reduced with recent laws in both of our countries and that the manufactures concur that if we had cleaner fuel that both our engines and our exhausts would be cleaner and our engines would last longer. Until we do get better gas we still have the problem of removing the byproducts of the combustion of dirty fuel and lube oil from our engines in order to maximize their service life and minimize the consumption of both fuel and oil. The best way to do this is by driving lighter vehicles and fewer miles but that is also another discussion. Just my .02 YMMV |
#13
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private wrote: > what is the oil change light? and how does it work? http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/arcv_pdf/3_00_e.pdf Regards, Ed White |
#14
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"private" > wrote in message
news:Qxnle.1488235$8l.621268@pd7tw1no... > Modern mineral oils are much better than oils of twenty years ago and have a > high concentration of synthetic and detergent additives. IMHE premium > mineral oils do give longer periods between both additions and changes. > > Synthetic oil MAY be better for EXTREME high temperature use but I have no > experience, and would suggest that for most applications a quality mineral > oil of the CORRECT viscosity will provide good service. It's also good for extreme low temperature use, since it flows better at start-up. The myth is that you can go longer between oil changes with synthetic. Both synthetic and petroleum based oil will lubricate far beyond the typical 5000 or 7500 mile oil change interval. But as you stated, the reason for more frequent changes is contamination of the oil, and the synthetic gets just as contaminated as the petroleum based oil (you could solve this with a bypass filter, but this is done only on big engines that use several gallons of oil). The oil also becomes acidic, and unlike big engines, the use of acid neutralizers in an engine that only has 4-5 quarts of oil, is just not done. On older Saturns, with 3000 mile oil changes, there is really no reason to use synthetic oil. These engines are notorious oil burners, and the reason for the oil burning would not be solved by synthetic oil. With the poor quality rings, you would never want to switch to synthetic if you've been running petroleum based oil for any length of time. Avoid non-API certified synthetics such as Amsoil (except for their XL-7500 line. The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. |
#15
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Thanks for the link, it is a clear explanation of the oil change light and
also has some good information on the original topic. It also lead me to this site that seems to have lots more good stuff. http://www.gmtechlink.com/ Since the light is controlled by a program, it will be at best a guestimate. It will only be as good as the usage model and sophistication of the programming algorithm. I would think that it is much better than nothing and since it is software driven does not cost much to include. I would speculate that it cannot be relied on to take engine condition and driving style into account. I would also think that the model is more applicable to an engine during the warrantee period and not as good for older engines. I would also suspect that it does not adjust for variables like air intake humidity and temperature. An engine with a good thermostat would indicate to the computer that it was warm but the intake air could still be very cold which could be causing poor atomization and incomplete combustion. I would hope that the programming would recognize excessive idling but would doubt that it is sophisticated enough to recognize high shift points, jackrabbit starts and shall we say spirited driving styles that IMHO are the cause of much of the complaints of poor ring wear and subsequent oil contamination caused by increased blowby. Just my .02 YMMV "C. E. White" > wrote in message ... > > > private wrote: > > > what is the oil change light? and how does it work? > > http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/arcv_pdf/3_00_e.pdf > > Regards, > > Ed White |
#16
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15,000 mile synthetic motor oil LONG and fuel additives
Everything I've read from Saturn and in a Chilton's manual say you should
not use any fuel additives in a Saturn because you will burn out sensors. |
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