automatic transmission failure question

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:43:11 +0000, krp wrote:

>>> Sounds like he might luck out with just a normal fluid change and new
>>> trans filter. Not big bucks. Most shops will do it for around $100.
>>
>>
>> I do it myself for ~$35...not including 6-pack.
>
> He doesn't sound like he'd be capable of doing that. Most likely it is
> either low on fluid or It has 300K on an original filter. Seen that lots
> before. Change the fluid AND filter and they run another 200K. Could be he
> ran it for 150K and never looked at the trans stick to see if there was ANY
> fluid in it.

Toyota and Honda generally overengineer things. I had an '85 Celica with a
W58 MT that was rated for 240 HP. The engine only attained 145 at factory
spec. Even when I replaced it with a newer engine I still wasn't pushing
the limit. Plenty of headroom.

Interestingly, the same trans is (er, was) used in my 200 HP Non-Turbo
Supra, with only 40 HP headroom.

The AT in the Supra is also rated at 240, and is also used in Jeep Grand
Cherokees.

krp wrote:
>
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> krp wrote:
>>>
>>> "Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク" > wrote in message
>>> news >>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:46:31 -0700, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have a 97 Honda Accord with 280K. Recently, I pulled over from
>>>>> driving to check a map and when I put my car back in D, the engine
>>>>> just raced like it was in neutral when I gave it gas. The reverse gear
>>>>> worked for a bit in the parking lot, eventually no shifter position
>>>>> resulted in movement of the vehicle. In D & R and only on a small
>>>>> number of throttle applications, the car started moving forward
>>>>> slightly, similar to that brief moment before the clutch on a manual
>>>>> transmission is fully engaged. Before I pulled over my transmission
>>>>> was working absolutely perfectly. The AAA tow guy and several repair
>>>>> shops told me over the phone that the auto transmission needs to be
>>>>> replaced (~$2000). Not worth it with the age of the car. Its now
>>>>> sitting in my driveway. Ideally, I would tow it to a mechanic and have
>>>>> them verify this for sure. Im not sure its worth spending the money
>>>>> just to confirm this. Is there much of a chance that this problem
>>>>> would require a repair that doesnt involve replacing the entire
>>>>> automatic transmission?
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> One more question. It may take a while before I sell it. I plan on
>>>>> starting the engine once every 2-weeks or so to keep the engine in
>>>>> good order and battery charged. Should I add an oil or gasoline
>>>>> preservative?
>>>>
>>>> Did you check the fluid level? That would be the first thing I'd check.
>>>> Low level will cause exactly what you're talking about.
>>>>
>>>> If it's not sealed, change or clean the screen (and report back the
>>>> condition of any debris you find...) and drain as much as you can and
>>>> replace it.
>>>>
>>>> If you're adventerous, you can lift the front of the car, wheels off
>>>> the
>>>> ground, pull the trans cooler lines (the one that pumps to the
>>>> radiator),
>>>> get a few quarts of trans fluid and 'flush' the tranny by letting
>>>> the car
>>>> idle in drive and pump the fluid out the tube while you replace it
>>>> through
>>>> the filler. However, on a tranny this old that sounds like it may have
>>>> never been service, this could remove the loose friction material which
>>>> may be the only thing keeping it moving!
>>>>
>>>> DON'T have it powerflushed!!! It's too old, and then you really
>>>> would need
>>>> to replace it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like he might luck out with just a normal fluid change and
>>> new trans filter. Not big bucks. Most shops will do it for around $100.
>>>
>>
>> wasting money on oil without a proper diagnosis is ridiculous.
>
> Maybe but it is the cheapest place to start.

eh? diagnosis is the cheapest place to start...

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:36:01 +0000, Kevin wrote:

> =?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?= >
> wrote in news >
>> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:43:59 +0000, krp wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Hachiroku ãƒÂ�ãƒÂ�ãƒÂ*ク" > wrote in message
>>> news >>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:46:31 -0700, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have a 97 Honda Accord with 280K. Recently, I pulled over from
>>>>> driving to check a map and when I put my car back in D, the engine
>>>>> just raced like it was in neutral when I gave it gas. The reverse
>>>>> gear worked for a bit in the parking lot, eventually no shifter
>>>>> position resulted in movement of the vehicle. In D & R and only on
>>>>> a small number of throttle applications, the car started moving
>>>>> forward slightly, similar to that brief moment before the clutch on
>>>>> a manual transmission is fully engaged. Before I pulled over my
>>>>> transmission was working absolutely perfectly. The AAA tow guy and
>>>>> several repair shops told me over the phone that the auto
>>>>> transmission needs to be replaced (~$2000). Not worth it with the
>>>>> age of the car. Its now sitting in my driveway. Ideally, I would
>>>>> tow it to a mechanic and have them verify this for sure. Im not
>>>>> sure its worth spending the money just to confirm this. Is there
>>>>> much of a chance that this problem would require a repair that
>>>>> doesnt involve replacing the entire automatic transmission?
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> One more question. It may take a while before I sell it. I plan on
>>>>> starting the engine once every 2-weeks or so to keep the engine in
>>>>> good order and battery charged. Should I add an oil or gasoline
>>>>> preservative?
>>>>
>>>> Did you check the fluid level? That would be the first thing I'd
>>>> check. Low level will cause exactly what you're talking about.
>>>>
>>>> If it's not sealed, change or clean the screen (and report back the
>>>> condition of any debris you find...) and drain as much as you can
>>>> and replace it.
>>>>
>>>> If you're adventerous, you can lift the front of the car, wheels off
>>>> the ground, pull the trans cooler lines (the one that pumps to the
>>>> radiator), get a few quarts of trans fluid and 'flush' the tranny by
>>>> letting the car idle in drive and pump the fluid out the tube while
>>>> you replace it through the filler. However, on a tranny this old
>>>> that sounds like it may have never been service, this could remove
>>>> the loose friction material which may be the only thing keeping it
>>>> moving!
>>>>
>>>> DON'T have it powerflushed!!! It's too old, and then you really
>>>> would need to replace it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like he might luck out with just a normal fluid change and
>>> new
>>> trans filter. Not big bucks. Most shops will do it for around $100.
>>
>>
>> I do it myself for ~$35...not including 6-pack.
>>
>>
>>
>
> it better be cheeper than that as the honda has a drain plug and no
> replaceable filter. Just did it on my son inlaws 98 accord. KB


There must be a filter somewhere? Nothing in the cooler lines? No pan to
drop?

For a '97:

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znet...-0319/image/8/

Interesting...when you look up replacement info, it says to drop the
pan...but it HAS no pan!

"Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
news
> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:43:59 +0000, krp wrote:
>
>>
>> "Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
>> news
>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:46:31 -0700, wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a 97 Honda Accord with 280K. Recently, I pulled over from
>>>> driving to check a map and when I put my car back in D, the
>>>> engine
>>>> just raced like it was in neutral when I gave it gas. The reverse
>>>> gear
>>>> worked for a bit in the parking lot, eventually no shifter
>>>> position
>>>> resulted in movement of the vehicle. In D & R and only on a small
>>>> number of throttle applications, the car started moving forward
>>>> slightly, similar to that brief moment before the clutch on a
>>>> manual
>>>> transmission is fully engaged. Before I pulled over my
>>>> transmission
>>>> was working absolutely perfectly. The AAA tow guy and several
>>>> repair
>>>> shops told me over the phone that the auto transmission needs to
>>>> be
>>>> replaced (~$2000). Not worth it with the age of the car. Its now
>>>> sitting in my driveway. Ideally, I would tow it to a mechanic and
>>>> have
>>>> them verify this for sure. Im not sure its worth spending the
>>>> money
>>>> just to confirm this. Is there much of a chance that this
>>>> problem
>>>> would require a repair that doesnt involve replacing the entire
>>>> automatic transmission?
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> One more question. It may take a while before I sell it. I plan
>>>> on
>>>> starting the engine once every 2-weeks or so to keep the engine
>>>> in
>>>> good order and battery charged. Should I add an oil or gasoline
>>>> preservative?
>>>
>>> Did you check the fluid level? That would be the first thing I'd
>>> check.
>>> Low level will cause exactly what you're talking about.
>>>
>>> If it's not sealed, change or clean the screen (and report back
>>> the
>>> condition of any debris you find...) and drain as much as you can
>>> and
>>> replace it.
>>>
>>> If you're adventerous, you can lift the front of the car, wheels
>>> off the
>>> ground, pull the trans cooler lines (the one that pumps to the
>>> radiator),
>>> get a few quarts of trans fluid and 'flush' the tranny by letting
>>> the car
>>> idle in drive and pump the fluid out the tube while you replace it
>>> through
>>> the filler. However, on a tranny this old that sounds like it may
>>> have
>>> never been service, this could remove the loose friction material
>>> which
>>> may be the only thing keeping it moving!
>>>
>>> DON'T have it powerflushed!!! It's too old, and then you really
>>> would need
>>> to replace it.
>>
>>
>> Sounds like he might luck out with just a normal fluid change
>> and new
>> trans filter. Not big bucks. Most shops will do it for around $100.
>
>
> I do it myself for ~$35...not including 6-pack.
>
>

$5 adder per knuckle?

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
> krp wrote:
>>
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> krp wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
>>>> news >>>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:46:31 -0700,
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a 97 Honda Accord with 280K. Recently, I pulled over
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> driving to check a map and when I put my car back in D, the
>>>>>> engine
>>>>>> just raced like it was in neutral when I gave it gas. The
>>>>>> reverse gear
>>>>>> worked for a bit in the parking lot, eventually no shifter
>>>>>> position
>>>>>> resulted in movement of the vehicle. In D & R and only on a
>>>>>> small
>>>>>> number of throttle applications, the car started moving forward
>>>>>> slightly, similar to that brief moment before the clutch on a
>>>>>> manual
>>>>>> transmission is fully engaged. Before I pulled over my
>>>>>> transmission
>>>>>> was working absolutely perfectly. The AAA tow guy and several
>>>>>> repair
>>>>>> shops told me over the phone that the auto transmission needs
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> replaced (~$2000). Not worth it with the age of the car. Its
>>>>>> now
>>>>>> sitting in my driveway. Ideally, I would tow it to a mechanic
>>>>>> and have
>>>>>> them verify this for sure. Im not sure its worth spending the
>>>>>> money
>>>>>> just to confirm this. Is there much of a chance that this
>>>>>> problem
>>>>>> would require a repair that doesnt involve replacing the entire
>>>>>> automatic transmission?
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One more question. It may take a while before I sell it. I plan
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> starting the engine once every 2-weeks or so to keep the engine
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> good order and battery charged. Should I add an oil or gasoline
>>>>>> preservative?
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you check the fluid level? That would be the first thing I'd
>>>>> check.
>>>>> Low level will cause exactly what you're talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it's not sealed, change or clean the screen (and report back
>>>>> the
>>>>> condition of any debris you find...) and drain as much as you
>>>>> can and
>>>>> replace it.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're adventerous, you can lift the front of the car, wheels
>>>>> off the
>>>>> ground, pull the trans cooler lines (the one that pumps to the
>>>>> radiator),
>>>>> get a few quarts of trans fluid and 'flush' the tranny by
>>>>> letting the car
>>>>> idle in drive and pump the fluid out the tube while you replace
>>>>> it through
>>>>> the filler. However, on a tranny this old that sounds like it
>>>>> may have
>>>>> never been service, this could remove the loose friction
>>>>> material which
>>>>> may be the only thing keeping it moving!
>>>>>
>>>>> DON'T have it powerflushed!!! It's too old, and then you really
>>>>> would need
>>>>> to replace it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like he might luck out with just a normal fluid change
>>>> and new trans filter. Not big bucks. Most shops will do it for
>>>> around $100.
>>>>
>>>
>>> wasting money on oil without a proper diagnosis is ridiculous.
>>
>> Maybe but it is the cheapest place to start.
>
> eh? diagnosis is the cheapest place to start...

I believe he was already given a diagnosis (albeit it, probably wrong)
that was more expensive then what the car is worth. I would think
spending $30-$100 is an acceptable risk to see if it it can be
salvaged if the rest of the vehicle is in fairly sound condition. If
it doesn't work, all that is lost is a few bucks. Beyond that, it
probably isn't worth it to open the housing, as just that portion
could cost more in personal time and/or money for a proper diagnosis.

Thanks to everyone who provided some advice.
The transmission fluid level is above the lower notch. But that is a
cold reading.
I can't get the transmission up to temperature to perform a more
accurate reading, as it won't drive.
I can't imagine that just adding fluid would magically bring it back
to life - but I am no expert.
I wish the the transmission computer had a similar interface like the
engine has OBDII
The failure seems entirely "fail safe" electrical as I had no symptoms
until I safely came to a stop.

techman41973 wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who provided some advice.
> The transmission fluid level is above the lower notch. But that is a
> cold reading.
> I can't get the transmission up to temperature to perform a more
> accurate reading, as it won't drive.
> I can't imagine that just adding fluid would magically bring it back
> to life - but I am no expert.
> I wish the the transmission computer had a similar interface like the
> engine has OBDII

it does - they're connected. any error codes should be interfaced
through the same system.


> The failure seems entirely "fail safe" electrical as I had no symptoms
> until I safely came to a stop.

it could be something simple like a solenoid failure, or even cable
disconnect. again, if you can't inspect and diagnose yourself, find
someone who can.

and all this stuff about "uneconomic to repair" is grossly
underinformed. you'll lose more in depreciation on any new vehicle than
you will repairing this. and you can buy a low mileage jdm transmission
for a few hundred bucks, assuming this one is broken - and that's unproven.

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 13:45:38 -0700, jim beam wrote:

> krp wrote:
>>
>> "Hachiroku ãƒ�ãƒ�ãƒ*ク" > wrote in message
>> news
>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:46:31 -0700, wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a 97 Honda Accord with 280K. Recently, I pulled over from
>>>> driving to check a map and when I put my car back in D, the engine
>>>> just raced like it was in neutral when I gave it gas. The reverse gear
>>>> worked for a bit in the parking lot, eventually no shifter position
>>>> resulted in movement of the vehicle. In D & R and only on a small
>>>> number of throttle applications, the car started moving forward
>>>> slightly, similar to that brief moment before the clutch on a manual
>>>> transmission is fully engaged. Before I pulled over my transmission
>>>> was working absolutely perfectly. The AAA tow guy and several repair
>>>> shops told me over the phone that the auto transmission needs to be
>>>> replaced (~$2000). Not worth it with the age of the car. Its now
>>>> sitting in my driveway. Ideally, I would tow it to a mechanic and have
>>>> them verify this for sure. Im not sure its worth spending the money
>>>> just to confirm this. Is there much of a chance that this problem
>>>> would require a repair that doesnt involve replacing the entire
>>>> automatic transmission?
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> One more question. It may take a while before I sell it. I plan on
>>>> starting the engine once every 2-weeks or so to keep the engine in
>>>> good order and battery charged. Should I add an oil or gasoline
>>>> preservative?
>>>
>>> Did you check the fluid level? That would be the first thing I'd check.
>>> Low level will cause exactly what you're talking about.
>>>
>>> If it's not sealed, change or clean the screen (and report back the
>>> condition of any debris you find...) and drain as much as you can and
>>> replace it.
>>>
>>> If you're adventerous, you can lift the front of the car, wheels off the
>>> ground, pull the trans cooler lines (the one that pumps to the radiator),
>>> get a few quarts of trans fluid and 'flush' the tranny by letting the car
>>> idle in drive and pump the fluid out the tube while you replace it
>>> through
>>> the filler. However, on a tranny this old that sounds like it may have
>>> never been service, this could remove the loose friction material which
>>> may be the only thing keeping it moving!
>>>
>>> DON'T have it powerflushed!!! It's too old, and then you really would
>>> need
>>> to replace it.
>>
>>
>> Sounds like he might luck out with just a normal fluid change and new
>> trans filter. Not big bucks. Most shops will do it for around $100.
>>
>
> wasting money on oil without a proper diagnosis is ridiculous.


A whole $25? Big deal. It's going to cost more than that for a 'diagnosis'.

Most Honda dealers charge $65 just to look at it. The OP didn't give any
timeline as to the last drain and fill, or if he bought the car new, and
filling the trans is so easy I bet even you could do it...

If it's only a quart or two low, that's a whopping $7 Yeah, it's worth a
shot, esp from the description of the problem he gave.

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:31:05 -0700, jim beam wrote:

>> The failure seems entirely "fail safe" electrical as I had no symptoms
>> until I safely came to a stop.
>
> it could be something simple like a solenoid failure, or even cable
> disconnect. again, if you can't inspect and diagnose yourself, find
> someone who can.

Solenoid failure will cause the trans to jump into limp mode.
I've been driving a Supra that way for 5 years.

As far as cables, that's easy. Open the hood and have a look.

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:34:37 -0700, L Alpert wrote:

>
> "Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
> news
>> On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:43:59 +0000, krp wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Hachiroku ????" > wrote in message
>>> news >>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:46:31 -0700, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have a 97 Honda Accord with 280K. Recently, I pulled over from
>>>>> driving to check a map and when I put my car back in D, the
>>>>> engine
>>>>> just raced like it was in neutral when I gave it gas. The reverse
>>>>> gear
>>>>> worked for a bit in the parking lot, eventually no shifter
>>>>> position
>>>>> resulted in movement of the vehicle. In D & R and only on a small
>>>>> number of throttle applications, the car started moving forward
>>>>> slightly, similar to that brief moment before the clutch on a
>>>>> manual
>>>>> transmission is fully engaged. Before I pulled over my
>>>>> transmission
>>>>> was working absolutely perfectly. The AAA tow guy and several
>>>>> repair
>>>>> shops told me over the phone that the auto transmission needs to
>>>>> be
>>>>> replaced (~$2000). Not worth it with the age of the car. Its now
>>>>> sitting in my driveway. Ideally, I would tow it to a mechanic and
>>>>> have
>>>>> them verify this for sure. Im not sure its worth spending the
>>>>> money
>>>>> just to confirm this. Is there much of a chance that this
>>>>> problem
>>>>> would require a repair that doesnt involve replacing the entire
>>>>> automatic transmission?
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> One more question. It may take a while before I sell it. I plan
>>>>> on
>>>>> starting the engine once every 2-weeks or so to keep the engine
>>>>> in
>>>>> good order and battery charged. Should I add an oil or gasoline
>>>>> preservative?
>>>>
>>>> Did you check the fluid level? That would be the first thing I'd
>>>> check.
>>>> Low level will cause exactly what you're talking about.
>>>>
>>>> If it's not sealed, change or clean the screen (and report back
>>>> the
>>>> condition of any debris you find...) and drain as much as you can
>>>> and
>>>> replace it.
>>>>
>>>> If you're adventerous, you can lift the front of the car, wheels
>>>> off the
>>>> ground, pull the trans cooler lines (the one that pumps to the
>>>> radiator),
>>>> get a few quarts of trans fluid and 'flush' the tranny by letting
>>>> the car
>>>> idle in drive and pump the fluid out the tube while you replace it
>>>> through
>>>> the filler. However, on a tranny this old that sounds like it may
>>>> have
>>>> never been service, this could remove the loose friction material
>>>> which
>>>> may be the only thing keeping it moving!
>>>>
>>>> DON'T have it powerflushed!!! It's too old, and then you really
>>>> would need
>>>> to replace it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like he might luck out with just a normal fluid change
>>> and new
>>> trans filter. Not big bucks. Most shops will do it for around $100.
>>
>>
>> I do it myself for ~$35...not including 6-pack.
>>
>>
>
> $5 adder per knuckle?

I give myself a 50% discount...

And use it to buy mechanic's gloves...if I ever wear them!

Here's a challenge! Want to talk about busted knuckles? Try changine the
SPARK PLUGS!!!!

http://www.supradreams.com/images/1988-turbo-engine.jpg

http://www.dragtimes.com/images/7613...yota-Supra.jpg