My Si has a DX motor!

I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
Si models. I asked around, but was never able to find anyone else to
confirm this, and since the car was running well, I eventually just
chalked it up as a curiosity.

Fast forward to several weeks ago, when I had (among other things) what
I thought was a leaking rear main seal looked at, but which turned out
to be a leaking oil pan gasket. In the process of trying to confirm
where the leak was actually originating, the dealer where I had the work
done cleaned off a fair amount of the gunk that had accumulated on the
various surfaces of the engine.

Yesterday I was poking around under the hood while attempting to change
a burned-out low beam, when I happened to shine a light on the front of
the block, and there it was, plain as day: D15B2, otherwise known as the
motor used in DX models. Sis of this vintage are supposed to have a
D16A6. The difference is a longer stroke, slightly higher compression
ratio, and, depending on who's counting, between 15-20 horsepower.

I bought the car from an Acura dealer in 1992 with roughly 20K miles on
it. I have no idea whether they knowingly sold me the car with a DX
motor, or whether it came to them that way and nobody noticed it before
it went out on the lot; it's not exactly a difference that's easily
spotted visually unless you examine the stamp on the block. But either
way, I'm not too pleased. I've been thinking more and more about an
engine swap lately, but the reality of taking that path is that it'll
cost a lot more for me to do that than it would to be patient and keep
my eyes open for a reasonably clean, non-riced CRX that's already had a
B16 swapped in by someone who knew what they were doing.

Dave

Dave Garrett wrote:
> I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
> years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
> he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
> instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
> but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
> Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
> Si models.
<snip>

that's b.s. the only way this happens is either if the car is
crashed/stolen parted out, then later rebuilt again with the cheap
motor, or the d16 blew and a cheapo d15 block was used as replacement.
whatever the deal, it's /way/ too late to do anything about the person
that did the work. if you want you can get d16's as jdm replacements
for not an incredible amount of money. depending on local emissions
laws, you can maybe get away with a zc motor - some of those are sweet -
cheap too.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> Dave Garrett > wrote:
>
>> Yesterday I was poking around under the hood while attempting to change
>> a burned-out low beam, when I happened to shine a light on the front of
>> the block, and there it was, plain as day: D15B2, otherwise known as the
>> motor used in DX models. Sis of this vintage are supposed to have a
>> D16A6. The difference is a longer stroke, slightly higher compression
>> ratio, and, depending on who's counting, between 15-20 horsepower.
>>
>> I bought the car from an Acura dealer in 1992 with roughly 20K miles on
>> it.
>
> And a bogus Si sticker from the previous ricer owner.
>
check the vehicle reg docs? i doubt it's just a sticker job - the
conversion from 2pfi to 4pfi is non-trivial.

"Dave Garrett" > wrote in message
...
>I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
> years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
> he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
> instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
> but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
> Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
> Si models. I asked around, but was never able to find anyone else to
> confirm this, and since the car was running well, I eventually just
> chalked it up as a curiosity.
>
> Fast forward to several weeks ago, when I had (among other things) what
> I thought was a leaking rear main seal looked at, but which turned out
> to be a leaking oil pan gasket. In the process of trying to confirm
> where the leak was actually originating, the dealer where I had the work
> done cleaned off a fair amount of the gunk that had accumulated on the
> various surfaces of the engine.
>
> Yesterday I was poking around under the hood while attempting to change
> a burned-out low beam, when I happened to shine a light on the front of
> the block, and there it was, plain as day: D15B2, otherwise known as the
> motor used in DX models. Sis of this vintage are supposed to have a
> D16A6. The difference is a longer stroke, slightly higher compression
> ratio, and, depending on who's counting, between 15-20 horsepower.
>
> I bought the car from an Acura dealer in 1992 with roughly 20K miles on
> it. I have no idea whether they knowingly sold me the car with a DX
> motor, or whether it came to them that way and nobody noticed it before
> it went out on the lot; it's not exactly a difference that's easily
> spotted visually unless you examine the stamp on the block. But either
> way, I'm not too pleased. I've been thinking more and more about an
> engine swap lately, but the reality of taking that path is that it'll
> cost a lot more for me to do that than it would to be patient and keep
> my eyes open for a reasonably clean, non-riced CRX that's already had a
> B16 swapped in by someone who knew what they were doing.
>
> Dave
>

Oddly, it may be that way from the factory. There is nothing unusual about
smaller components being substituted - why not engines? Okay, sometimes
specific engines are offered as extra cost options, and in that case it
would be fraudulent to supply a motor that wasn't what the buyer paid for.
Otherwise, if the purchase contract didn't specify the engine there isn't a
strict legal issue, is there? (I am not a lawyer.)

I recall a while back a commotion about Oldsmobile engines being used in
Cadillacs. I don't know if anything came of that.

Mike

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 04:44:24 -0700, Michael Pardee wrote:

> "Dave Garrett" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
>> years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
>> he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
>> instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
>> but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
>> Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
>> Si models. I asked around, but was never able to find anyone else to
>> confirm this, and since the car was running well, I eventually just
>> chalked it up as a curiosity.
>>
>> Fast forward to several weeks ago, when I had (among other things) what
>> I thought was a leaking rear main seal looked at, but which turned out
>> to be a leaking oil pan gasket. In the process of trying to confirm
>> where the leak was actually originating, the dealer where I had the work
>> done cleaned off a fair amount of the gunk that had accumulated on the
>> various surfaces of the engine.
>>
>> Yesterday I was poking around under the hood while attempting to change
>> a burned-out low beam, when I happened to shine a light on the front of
>> the block, and there it was, plain as day: D15B2, otherwise known as the
>> motor used in DX models. Sis of this vintage are supposed to have a
>> D16A6. The difference is a longer stroke, slightly higher compression
>> ratio, and, depending on who's counting, between 15-20 horsepower.
>>
>> I bought the car from an Acura dealer in 1992 with roughly 20K miles on
>> it. I have no idea whether they knowingly sold me the car with a DX
>> motor, or whether it came to them that way and nobody noticed it before
>> it went out on the lot; it's not exactly a difference that's easily
>> spotted visually unless you examine the stamp on the block. But either
>> way, I'm not too pleased. I've been thinking more and more about an
>> engine swap lately, but the reality of taking that path is that it'll
>> cost a lot more for me to do that than it would to be patient and keep
>> my eyes open for a reasonably clean, non-riced CRX that's already had a
>> B16 swapped in by someone who knew what they were doing.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
> Oddly, it may be that way from the factory. There is nothing unusual about
> smaller components being substituted - why not engines? Okay, sometimes
> specific engines are offered as extra cost options, and in that case it
> would be fraudulent to supply a motor that wasn't what the buyer paid for.
> Otherwise, if the purchase contract didn't specify the engine there isn't a
> strict legal issue, is there? (I am not a lawyer.)
>
> I recall a while back a commotion about Oldsmobile engines being used in
> Cadillacs. I don't know if anything came of that.

If you're not getting the larger engine, you're not getting an Si. The Si
is the performance package.

If I would have found a 1.6L under the hood of my Si, instead of the 2.0L
it is advertised as, you can damn well believe the car would have been
back at the dealer right away.

This person doesn't have such recourse, likely, due to the age of the car,
and the time since it was purchased, but I'd still be mad as hell.

Dave Garrett > wrote in
:


>
> Yesterday I was poking around under the hood while attempting to
> change a burned-out low beam, when I happened to shine a light on the
> front of the block, and there it was, plain as day: D15B2, otherwise
> known as the motor used in DX models. Sis of this vintage are supposed
> to have a D16A6.



What are the first eight digits of your VIN? This will tell you what
engine the car originally shipped with.

What country are you in? Different engines were used in different markets.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

In article > ,
says...
> Dave Garrett wrote:

> > I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
> > years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
> > he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
> > instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
> > but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
> > Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
> > Si models.
> <snip>
>
> that's b.s. the only way this happens is either if the car is
> crashed/stolen parted out, then later rebuilt again with the cheap
> motor, or the d16 blew and a cheapo d15 block was used as replacement.
> whatever the deal, it's /way/ too late to do anything about the person
> that did the work. if you want you can get d16's as jdm replacements
> for not an incredible amount of money. depending on local emissions
> laws, you can maybe get away with a zc motor - some of those are sweet -
> cheap too.

I thought it sounded like BS at the time too. I don't know enough about
the details of the differences between the two engines - do they use the
same block, or is it significantly different?

And yeah, I'm certainly not expecting to have any recourse at this late
date other than never patronizing that dealer again. If I'm going to do
a swap, I'm inclined to go for a B16 for a significant power boost. But
as you're probably well aware, a B16 transplant isn't nearly as easy a
bolt-in as a ZC - off the top of my head, you need new motor mounts, new
axles, a wiring subharness to connect the VTEC controller, a new ECU, a
new gauge cluster, and a new AC bracket (where I live, not having AC in
the summer is a significant problem, so I need to keep it functioning).
That's probably at least $2K in parts before you even get started on the
labor to install everything. Hence my earlier comment about trying to
find another CRX that's already had a B16 professionally installed.

Dave

In article >,
says...

> If you're not getting the larger engine, you're not getting an Si. The Si
> is the performance package.
>
> If I would have found a 1.6L under the hood of my Si, instead of the 2.0L
> it is advertised as, you can damn well believe the car would have been
> back at the dealer right away.
>
> This person doesn't have such recourse, likely, due to the age of the car,
> and the time since it was purchased, but I'd still be mad as hell.

I don't think it's a case of simply rebadging a DX as an Si, unless
someone grafted all of the Si suspension and braking upgrades on as well
- Sis had 4-wheel discs in 1990, and AFAIK 4-wheel discs were unique to
the Si in the CRX model range.

And yeah, to say that I'm a bit chapped is probably an understatement.
This should've been disclosed by the dealer.

Dave

Dave Garrett wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>> If you're not getting the larger engine, you're not getting an Si. The Si
>> is the performance package.
>>
>> If I would have found a 1.6L under the hood of my Si, instead of the 2.0L
>> it is advertised as, you can damn well believe the car would have been
>> back at the dealer right away.
>>
>> This person doesn't have such recourse, likely, due to the age of the car,
>> and the time since it was purchased, but I'd still be mad as hell.
>
> I don't think it's a case of simply rebadging a DX as an Si, unless
> someone grafted all of the Si suspension and braking upgrades on as well
> - Sis had 4-wheel discs in 1990, and AFAIK 4-wheel discs were unique to
> the Si in the CRX model range.
>
> And yeah, to say that I'm a bit chapped is probably an understatement.
> This should've been disclosed by the dealer.
>
well, yes and no. if they got the vehicle from a trade, and they took
it in good faith, then it may not be their fault. just looking under
the hood doesn't tell you what the motor is - the externals are identical.

Dave Garrett wrote:
> In article > ,
> says...
>> Dave Garrett wrote:
>
>>> I think I posted about this when my timing belt was changed a couple of
>>> years ago; the short version was that my usual mechanic told me after
>>> he'd finished the work that he thought my 90 CRX Si had a 1.5L engine
>>> instead of the usual 1.6, because the timing belt for a 1.6 didn't fit,
>>> but the belt from a 1.5 did. He claimed to have called a friend at a
>>> Honda dealer who told him that 1.5L engines had been installed in some
>>> Si models.
>> <snip>
>>
>> that's b.s. the only way this happens is either if the car is
>> crashed/stolen parted out, then later rebuilt again with the cheap
>> motor, or the d16 blew and a cheapo d15 block was used as replacement.
>> whatever the deal, it's /way/ too late to do anything about the person
>> that did the work. if you want you can get d16's as jdm replacements
>> for not an incredible amount of money. depending on local emissions
>> laws, you can maybe get away with a zc motor - some of those are sweet -
>> cheap too.
>
> I thought it sounded like BS at the time too. I don't know enough about
> the details of the differences between the two engines - do they use the
> same block, or is it significantly different?

i don't do rebuilds so i don't know for sure, but afaik, the blocks and
heads are identical. the crank is slightly longer stroke [to give the
extra few cc's of capacity] and the cam is a little more punchy, but
other than that, they're the same.

>
> And yeah, I'm certainly not expecting to have any recourse at this late
> date other than never patronizing that dealer again. If I'm going to do
> a swap, I'm inclined to go for a B16 for a significant power boost. But
> as you're probably well aware, a B16 transplant isn't nearly as easy a
> bolt-in as a ZC - off the top of my head, you need new motor mounts,

are you sure?

> new
> axles,

are you sure?

> a wiring subharness to connect the VTEC controller, a new ECU,

yes & yes.

> a
> new gauge cluster,

not if you use a cable transmission.

> and a new AC bracket (where I live, not having AC in
> the summer is a significant problem, so I need to keep it functioning).
> That's probably at least $2K in parts before you even get started on the
> labor to install everything. Hence my earlier comment about trying to
> find another CRX that's already had a B16 professionally installed.

define "professional"! if you've had this crx for a while and know its
history, stick with it. otherwise you have no idea what you're getting
into. the most important thing is to find someone to do the swap that's
not going to rip you. by the sound of it, half the stuff you've just
mentioned is coming from a source that's trying to set you up to put
their kids through college.

find out if the zc will pass your local emissions laws, then do the zc
swap. that motor is cheap, hella fast [160hp from a 1600 motor], and a
straight bolt-in. then you can keep everything else. and be careful
who you ask!!! talk with a smog person. here in ca, we have "test
only" stations that are forbidden to do work on the vehicles so have no
interest in trying to sell you on stuff you don't need. my local guy is
a honda fan and was delighted to me about what i can and can't do for
egr systems if i want to do mods without getting the vehicle refereed.

one last thing: if you want to be cheap, just get the si cam and swap it
into your d15. you're only losing 97cc's. you could probably do that
yourself. better yet, get an hot aftermarket cam. no problems with
a/c, vtec, transmission, mounts, etc., etc. do it with the engine still
in the car.