1977 VW Microbus - type 2 body - brake and possible valve problems

Red Bug > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Chuck Townsley) wrote:
>
> > Question 2: have any of you experience a similiar problem with your
> > brakes and what was the diagnoses?
>
> Yes, but it was from long overdue brake star adjustment... Are you sure
> your shoes are almost touching the drum surfaces most of the time? Your
> multi-pump problem is exactly what I experience any time that I'm
> overdue for adjusting the pads out with the star nuts. You can check
> this very easily... Adjust them out to grab and see if the problem goes
> away... then back off each wheel's stars so that you get just a hint of
> contact at each wheel when you give each a spin while it is off the
> ground. After a good job of adjusting, my brake pedal engages with just
> a bit of travel and doesn't need multiple pumps.

Sounds good, I will give that a try. Like I had said, I have not
looked at the back brakes yet, so lord only knows what I will find
back there.

A question on breaks... Do the back break grab more then the fronts?
These seems backwards compared to the wear rate of front pads vs back
shoes on other vehicles that I have worked on. Is this a reflection
of past technology or just a simple misunderstanding on my part? The
shoes are generally quite large compared to the pads, and the drums
are generally quite substansive also. Which might indicate that they
are doing most of the work.
On the other hand, if the backs grabbed harder then the front, it
seems like the back end would swing around on wet weather.

These are the kind of questions you get from a shade tree mechanic, so
bear with me.

Thanks again for your suggestions.
Chuck

Chuck Townsley wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
> I am a newby, so be patient. I just purchased my first VW microbus.
> The engine was not running, but everything seemed to be in pretty good
> working order, or at least could be fixed.
> After a couple of hours of rewiring the engine compartment components,
> (the previous owners mechanic disconnected all the wiring and just
> left it that way), replacing the fuel, and the bus fired right up. It
> had not ran for several months. The previous owners mechanic told him
> that the reason the bus could not drive up the hill in front of his
> house was that the valves were shot and a valve job was needed.
> However, I am not 100% sure how accurate this explanation was. The
> ignition wire to the coil had a connector that would barely stay on
> the coil's post. I think this may have been vibrating and causing the
> loss of ignition. It is kind of a wild thought, but still a
> possibility.

<Big SNIP>

Purchase the Bentley Official Manual for '68 thru '79 Type 2 Bus.
You can still buy them new, or even used on eBay.
Haynes has a good transporter manual too.

That said, 70 PSI is way too low for compression, although it *will* run
nicely. But like the guy said, power will be poor.
Plan on replacing heads real soon before the thing self-destructs.

Another issue (and this may relate to the early failure) is that
the '77 tranny is geared way too low (numeric) for the 1600 engine.

When they did the transplant, did they *completely* seal the
engine to the engine bay?? If not, hot air from underneath will
be sucked into the fan and cooling grossly compromised. Every
little hole must be sealed off.

On the brakes, figger on simply replacing *all* the components;
there is no justification for re-using cylinders which have been
sitting in water-contaminated fluid.
Replace the hoses too; they are now over a qtr-century old
and are doubtless swelled up inside.

There is a hyd pressure balancing valve for the rear brakes;
it is located underneath in one of the frame rails.
That may have failed (rusted) due to the water also.
These brakes are vacuum assist (power); be sure the vacuum
line was connected to the 1600 engine.

Good luck; that's a nice Bus but you'll have your work cut out for you.
Bookmark this useful site:
http://www.type2.com/

Loads of tech info...

Speedy Jim ('78 Bus)
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

On 12 Oct 2004 19:52:36 -0700 (Chuck
Townsley) wrote:

>So after firing up the engine, I took the bus for a quick spin. It
>seemed to have plenty of power and acceleration for a single
>carborator 1600cc motor. Yes, it is a 1600cc engine, even though the
>books show that this vehicle should have a 2000cc engine. So upon
>returning to my house, I pulled out the compression tester and did a
>compression test on all 4 cylinders. They all came in at about 60-70
>psi. This seems extremely low, as the book says they should be around
>110 to 140 psi.

I agree; there's something fishy here. It is unlikely to be bad
valves, as they would not all be equally bad. I wonder if someone got
the cam in wrong. You might be able to watch the valves and make sure
that the intakes open about as far ahead of TDC as the exhausts open
afterwards.

>Now for the brake problem.

>The resevior was all but empty, if it had any fluid in it, it was not
>decernable. So I filled up the resevior and started the bleeding
>process. What came out was extremely bad, it was dirty and so full of
>absorbed water that it floated on top of new brake fluid that was in
>my catch container.

Old wet brake fluid will still mix perfectly easily with fresh dry
fluid. I wonder if this had silicone fluid in it. DoT-5 silicone brake
fluid won't mix with standard fluid and is lighter and floats on top.
It generally comes out clean, however. It's good stuff when properly
installed.

>In order to get brakes, I had to pump the pedal about 10 times.

>Also, if I hold my foot on the brake, the pressure does not bleed off
>and holds much longer.

>1) air in the system (my son and I bled these lines for a long enough
>time that this would suprize me). However, i am going to bleed them
>again just in case.

This does not sound like air in the lines. It sounds like you have
some shoes that need to be adjusted. They just have to travel a long
ways before they contact the drums.

>2) the rear brakes have not been bled, so "water" laised brake fluid
>in those rear brakes is causing the problem.

No. Wet fluid works just as well as dry fluid, until it gets hot.

>3) one of the pistons in the early stages of the brake system (either
>part of the master cyl, or one of the slaves cyl) has a leak backwards
>around the pistons seal. Allowing the pressure of the system to bleed
>by. Although I would have thought this would have caused a failure
>during the stoke of my foot on the pedal and not caused pumping to be
>required.

No. I agree with your last sentence, and the fact that it stays solid
while you hold your foot down pretty much proves this.

>Question 2: have any of you experience a similiar problem with your
>brakes and what was the diagnoses?

Yes, your rear brake shoes need to be adjusted.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Another possibility,how accurate is your compression gauge?Mine got dropped
once and read consistently wrong for the duration.As they all read that
low,cam or lash adjust warrents checking.One low cylinder would make
sense,not all four.
"Jim Adney" > wrote in message
...
> On 12 Oct 2004 19:52:36 -0700 (Chuck
> Townsley) wrote:
>
> >So after firing up the engine, I took the bus for a quick spin. It
> >seemed to have plenty of power and acceleration for a single
> >carborator 1600cc motor. Yes, it is a 1600cc engine, even though the
> >books show that this vehicle should have a 2000cc engine. So upon
> >returning to my house, I pulled out the compression tester and did a
> >compression test on all 4 cylinders. They all came in at about 60-70
> >psi. This seems extremely low, as the book says they should be around
> >110 to 140 psi.
>
> I agree; there's something fishy here. It is unlikely to be bad
> valves, as they would not all be equally bad. I wonder if someone got
> the cam in wrong. You might be able to watch the valves and make sure
> that the intakes open about as far ahead of TDC as the exhausts open
> afterwards.
>
> >Now for the brake problem.
>
> >The resevior was all but empty, if it had any fluid in it, it was not
> >decernable. So I filled up the resevior and started the bleeding
> >process. What came out was extremely bad, it was dirty and so full of
> >absorbed water that it floated on top of new brake fluid that was in
> >my catch container.
>
> Old wet brake fluid will still mix perfectly easily with fresh dry
> fluid. I wonder if this had silicone fluid in it. DoT-5 silicone brake
> fluid won't mix with standard fluid and is lighter and floats on top.
> It generally comes out clean, however. It's good stuff when properly
> installed.
>
> >In order to get brakes, I had to pump the pedal about 10 times.
>
> >Also, if I hold my foot on the brake, the pressure does not bleed off
> >and holds much longer.
>
> >1) air in the system (my son and I bled these lines for a long enough
> >time that this would suprize me). However, i am going to bleed them
> >again just in case.
>
> This does not sound like air in the lines. It sounds like you have
> some shoes that need to be adjusted. They just have to travel a long
> ways before they contact the drums.
>
> >2) the rear brakes have not been bled, so "water" laised brake fluid
> >in those rear brakes is causing the problem.
>
> No. Wet fluid works just as well as dry fluid, until it gets hot.
>
> >3) one of the pistons in the early stages of the brake system (either
> >part of the master cyl, or one of the slaves cyl) has a leak backwards
> >around the pistons seal. Allowing the pressure of the system to bleed
> >by. Although I would have thought this would have caused a failure
> >during the stoke of my foot on the pedal and not caused pumping to be
> >required.
>
> No. I agree with your last sentence, and the fact that it stays solid
> while you hold your foot down pretty much proves this.
>
> >Question 2: have any of you experience a similiar problem with your
> >brakes and what was the diagnoses?
>
> Yes, your rear brake shoes need to be adjusted.
>
> -
> -----------------------------------------------
> Jim Adney
> Madison, WI 53711 USA
> -----------------------------------------------

Speedy Jim > wrote in message >...
> Chuck Townsley wrote:
> >
> > Hello folks,
> > I am a newby, so be patient. I just purchased my first VW microbus.
> > The engine was not running, but everything seemed to be in pretty good
> > working order, or at least could be fixed.
> > After a couple of hours of rewiring the engine compartment components,
> > (the previous owners mechanic disconnected all the wiring and just
> > left it that way), replacing the fuel, and the bus fired right up. It
> > had not ran for several months. The previous owners mechanic told him
> > that the reason the bus could not drive up the hill in front of his
> > house was that the valves were shot and a valve job was needed.
> > However, I am not 100% sure how accurate this explanation was. The
> > ignition wire to the coil had a connector that would barely stay on
> > the coil's post. I think this may have been vibrating and causing the
> > loss of ignition. It is kind of a wild thought, but still a
> > possibility.
>
> <Big SNIP>
>
> Purchase the Bentley Official Manual for '68 thru '79 Type 2 Bus.
> You can still buy them new, or even used on eBay.
> Haynes has a good transporter manual too.
>
> That said, 70 PSI is way too low for compression, although it *will* run
> nicely. But like the guy said, power will be poor.
> Plan on replacing heads real soon before the thing self-destructs.
>
> Another issue (and this may relate to the early failure) is that
> the '77 tranny is geared way too low (numeric) for the 1600 engine.
>
> When they did the transplant, did they *completely* seal the
> engine to the engine bay?? If not, hot air from underneath will
> be sucked into the fan and cooling grossly compromised. Every
> little hole must be sealed off.
>
> On the brakes, figger on simply replacing *all* the components;
> there is no justification for re-using cylinders which have been
> sitting in water-contaminated fluid.
> Replace the hoses too; they are now over a qtr-century old
> and are doubtless swelled up inside.
>
> There is a hyd pressure balancing valve for the rear brakes;
> it is located underneath in one of the frame rails.
> That may have failed (rusted) due to the water also.
> These brakes are vacuum assist (power); be sure the vacuum
> line was connected to the 1600 engine.
>
> Good luck; that's a nice Bus but you'll have your work cut out for you.
> Bookmark this useful site:
> http://www.type2.com/
>
> Loads of tech info...
>
> Speedy Jim ('78 Bus)
> http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

Thanks Jim, your suggestions are well taken. No reason for a few bucks
saved, should I take a chance for brake failure. I purchased the
Bentley Official Manual and it has been a huge help. I have purchased
a manual for every vehicle I have owned, it just makes since. I only
have two complaints about this manual, the first is it jumps around
making constant reference to other areas on how to do this or that.
The other is that there is no appendix at the end to point you to
specific issues. For instance, to find out the compression for the
cylinders, I went to the engine area, and could not find it. Well it
is in the middle of the maintenance section. I am sure there is a
reason, but it just doesn't make total sense to me. Now let me jump
off that soap box...

Again, Jim thanks for the advice.
Chuck

"ilambert" > wrote in message >...
> Another possibility,how accurate is your compression gauge?Mine got dropped
> once and read consistently wrong for the duration.As they all read that
> low,cam or lash adjust warrents checking.One low cylinder would make
> sense,not all four.
> "Jim Adney" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 12 Oct 2004 19:52:36 -0700 (Chuck
> > Townsley) wrote:
> >
> > >So after firing up the engine, I took the bus for a quick spin. It
> > >seemed to have plenty of power and acceleration for a single
> > >carborator 1600cc motor. Yes, it is a 1600cc engine, even though the
> > >books show that this vehicle should have a 2000cc engine. So upon
> > >returning to my house, I pulled out the compression tester and did a
> > >compression test on all 4 cylinders. They all came in at about 60-70
> > >psi. This seems extremely low, as the book says they should be around
> > >110 to 140 psi.
> >
> > I agree; there's something fishy here. It is unlikely to be bad
> > valves, as they would not all be equally bad. I wonder if someone got
> > the cam in wrong. You might be able to watch the valves and make sure
> > that the intakes open about as far ahead of TDC as the exhausts open
> > afterwards.
> >
> > >Now for the brake problem.
>
> > >The resevior was all but empty, if it had any fluid in it, it was not
> > >decernable. So I filled up the resevior and started the bleeding
> > >process. What came out was extremely bad, it was dirty and so full of
> > >absorbed water that it floated on top of new brake fluid that was in
> > >my catch container.
> >
> > Old wet brake fluid will still mix perfectly easily with fresh dry
> > fluid. I wonder if this had silicone fluid in it. DoT-5 silicone brake
> > fluid won't mix with standard fluid and is lighter and floats on top.
> > It generally comes out clean, however. It's good stuff when properly
> > installed.
> >
> > >In order to get brakes, I had to pump the pedal about 10 times.
>
> > >Also, if I hold my foot on the brake, the pressure does not bleed off
> > >and holds much longer.
>
> > >1) air in the system (my son and I bled these lines for a long enough
> > >time that this would suprize me). However, i am going to bleed them
> > >again just in case.
> >
> > This does not sound like air in the lines. It sounds like you have
> > some shoes that need to be adjusted. They just have to travel a long
> > ways before they contact the drums.
> >
> > >2) the rear brakes have not been bled, so "water" laised brake fluid
> > >in those rear brakes is causing the problem.
> >
> > No. Wet fluid works just as well as dry fluid, until it gets hot.
> >
> > >3) one of the pistons in the early stages of the brake system (either
> > >part of the master cyl, or one of the slaves cyl) has a leak backwards
> > >around the pistons seal. Allowing the pressure of the system to bleed
> > >by. Although I would have thought this would have caused a failure
> > >during the stoke of my foot on the pedal and not caused pumping to be
> > >required.
> >
> > No. I agree with your last sentence, and the fact that it stays solid
> > while you hold your foot down pretty much proves this.
> >
> > >Question 2: have any of you experience a similiar problem with your
> > >brakes and what was the diagnoses?
> >
> > Yes, your rear brake shoes need to be adjusted.
> >
> > -
> > -----------------------------------------------
> > Jim Adney
> > Madison, WI 53711 USA
> > -----------------------------------------------

Jim and Ilambert,
thanks for the input guys. I can not touch the bus until Saturday,
but can't wait to test out some of the theories.

I suspected there was something wrong with the gauge also, so I took
it over to my air compressor and connected it to run a check. As i
veried the air pressure coming out of my regulator, the gauge messured
exactly the same as the guage on the regulator.

I went out to a link www.type2.com that was posted by a previous
responder last evening and read something that made me think that
maybe I made a mistake in my technique. My service manual said to
test with the engine cold, and throttle held wide open. But this web
site said to test while the engine was hot. Hmmm, this made me wonder
if the choke could have been closed, there by limiting the air intake,
and giving a low, but consistant reading. Sounds a little far
fetched, but maybe plausible.

Should I test it hot, or cold?

If the choke is closed, can it cut off that much air and reduce the
reading?

I am just trying to look for easy solutions prior to checking the cam
or lash ajustments. Especially since I have not done that before, I
suspect it isn't that hard, but who knows.

Thanks again....
Chuck

On 14 Oct 2004 14:42:37 -0700 (Chuck
Townsley) wrote:

>Should I test it hot, or cold?
>
>If the choke is closed, can it cut off that much air and reduce the
>reading?

You should check it hot. Not only because of the choke, but also
because that's when all the engine parts are the right size, and the
rings will have the oil film on them which makes for a better seal

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney > wrote in message >. ..
> On 14 Oct 2004 14:42:37 -0700 (Chuck
> Townsley) wrote:
>
> >Should I test it hot, or cold?
> >
> >If the choke is closed, can it cut off that much air and reduce the
> >reading?
>
> You should check it hot. Not only because of the choke, but also
> because that's when all the engine parts are the right size, and the
> rings will have the oil film on them which makes for a better seal
>
> -
> -----------------------------------------------
> Jim Adney
> Madison, WI 53711 USA
> -----------------------------------------------

I wanted to let you all know what I have come up with from your
suggestions.

The compression when tested with a warm engine and a non-leaking
compression guage came up to 120PSI. So things are great there.
The main problem seems to be related to a one way valve on the
compression tester that was slighly loose and allowing pressure to
release and not build to 120PSI. Also the motor being hot help
significantly too. When tested cold with the corrected compression
tester the pressure only hit between 85 and 90 PSI. So your help was
right on mark.

One the second issue of the brakes. There is a slight leak in the
master cylinder that is draining the reseviors. This allowed air in
the system that was being held back in the rear brake systems. I
have flushed the entire system, purged all air and the brakes worked
fine. That is when I discovered the slight leak in the master
cylinder. And putting several peices of the puzzle together, I have
determined that the air in the system was caused by that leak. I
have a master cylindar on order. It along with the new pads, new
shoes, new wheel cylindars for the back drum brakes, all of which have
been installed should solve the problem.

Thanks for your help.
Chuck