'97 Voyager - Brakes

HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.

Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.

Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.

Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
MamaB

Who put on the Master Cyl.?

"MamaB" > wrote in message
...
> HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.
>
> Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
> Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.
>
> Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
> rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
> cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
> checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.
>
> Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
> MamaB
>
>
>




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Who put on the Master Cyl.?

"MamaB" > wrote in message
...
> HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.
>
> Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
> Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.
>
> Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
> rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
> cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
> checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.
>
> Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
> MamaB
>
>
>




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Hi Harry.

A licensed mechanic (Dodge background) replaced the master cylinder; the
vacuum gasket for the power brakes is okay.

Is that why you asked? Have you a suggestion?
MamaB

Harry Balzak wrote:
> Who put on the Master Cyl.?
>
> "MamaB" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.
>>
>>Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
>>Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.
>>
>>Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
>>rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
>>cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
>>checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.
>>
>>Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
>>MamaB
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
> ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Hi Harry.

A licensed mechanic (Dodge background) replaced the master cylinder; the
vacuum gasket for the power brakes is okay.

Is that why you asked? Have you a suggestion?
MamaB

Harry Balzak wrote:
> Who put on the Master Cyl.?
>
> "MamaB" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.
>>
>>Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
>>Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.
>>
>>Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
>>rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
>>cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
>>checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.
>>
>>Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
>>MamaB
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
> ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

make sure there isnt a problem with boiling the brake fluid, if a rotor or
drum is locking up, it could cause excessive heat and boil the fluid,
causing air in the system
"MamaB" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Harry.
>
> A licensed mechanic (Dodge background) replaced the master cylinder; the
> vacuum gasket for the power brakes is okay.
>
> Is that why you asked? Have you a suggestion?
> MamaB
>
> Harry Balzak wrote:
> > Who put on the Master Cyl.?
> >
> > "MamaB" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.
> >>
> >>Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
> >>Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.
> >>
> >>Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
> >>rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
> >>cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
> >>checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.
> >>
> >>Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
> >>MamaB
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
> > ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
>

make sure there isnt a problem with boiling the brake fluid, if a rotor or
drum is locking up, it could cause excessive heat and boil the fluid,
causing air in the system
"MamaB" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Harry.
>
> A licensed mechanic (Dodge background) replaced the master cylinder; the
> vacuum gasket for the power brakes is okay.
>
> Is that why you asked? Have you a suggestion?
> MamaB
>
> Harry Balzak wrote:
> > Who put on the Master Cyl.?
> >
> > "MamaB" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.
> >>
> >>Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
> >>Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.
> >>
> >>Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
> >>rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
> >>cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
> >>checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.
> >>
> >>Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
> >>MamaB
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
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Newsgroups
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>

Thanks for the suggestion but the pads and routers were replaced also.
Any other ideas? The stick of dynamite is starting to look mighty good.
MamaB

maxpower wrote:
> make sure there isnt a problem with boiling the brake fluid, if a rotor or
> drum is locking up, it could cause excessive heat and boil the fluid,
> causing air in the system
> "MamaB" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hi Harry.
>>
>>A licensed mechanic (Dodge background) replaced the master cylinder; the
>>vacuum gasket for the power brakes is okay.
>>
>>Is that why you asked? Have you a suggestion?
>>MamaB
>>
>>Harry Balzak wrote:
>>
>>>Who put on the Master Cyl.?
>>>
>>>"MamaB" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.
>>>>
>>>>Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
>>>>Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.
>>>>
>>>>Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
>>>>rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
>>>>cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
>>>>checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.
>>>>
>>>>Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
>>>>MamaB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
>
> News==----
>
>>>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
>
> Newsgroups
>
>>>---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
>>
>
>

Thanks for the suggestion but the pads and routers were replaced also.
Any other ideas? The stick of dynamite is starting to look mighty good.
MamaB

maxpower wrote:
> make sure there isnt a problem with boiling the brake fluid, if a rotor or
> drum is locking up, it could cause excessive heat and boil the fluid,
> causing air in the system
> "MamaB" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hi Harry.
>>
>>A licensed mechanic (Dodge background) replaced the master cylinder; the
>>vacuum gasket for the power brakes is okay.
>>
>>Is that why you asked? Have you a suggestion?
>>MamaB
>>
>>Harry Balzak wrote:
>>
>>>Who put on the Master Cyl.?
>>>
>>>"MamaB" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>HELP! Three different mechanics have been of no help.
>>>>
>>>>Problem: no brakes - pedal to floor and ABS is all that stops it.
>>>>Problem started following a close-call stop when ABS kicked in.
>>>>
>>>>Actions taken: Air is definitely getting into brake lines (front left &
>>>>rear right). To date- all lines have been bled (4 times); wheel
>>>>cylinders,caliphers and pads & routers have been checked; fluid levels
>>>>checked each time and are okay; master cylinder has been replaced.
>>>>
>>>>Question: Can anyone help? ..... short of dynamite!
>>>>MamaB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
>
> News==----
>
>>>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
>
> Newsgroups
>
>>>---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
>>
>
>

Is the mechanic using a pressure bleeding system?
Did the bleeding include cycling the ABS?
By chance do you have a Traction Control System? Unlikely but could be.
I recomend and use www.alldatadiy.com online manuals

Thoughts,
For NON-traction control:
If the master cylinder seal is leaking it would effect the primary pump thus
air in RF+LR. Look familiar?

Didn't sound like the dealer was involved so I assume the mechanic did not
have a pressure bleed system or the diagnostic controller needed to cycle
the ABS in order to bleed it. Sometimes the dealer is expensive but they get
the job done. OTOH your mech may have done all this.

Your description of peddle to floor, and ABS pump stopping it, plus air in
..., leads me to a faulty master cylinder or at least one that was not bled
properly before being mounted on the booster. Note that the service bulletin
is specific the bleed procedure for the master cyl replacement.

I suspect the ABS is fine and likely does not need bleeding. given that it
stops the vehicle then the air is not btw the ABS and the slaves(wheels) so
it must be at the Master! I'd pull the master cyl and mount it in the vice
(by the flange) and bleed it IAW service bulletin.

info from alldata below but it you pay you get the rest and pictures<g>

Master:
NOTE: Two different size bleeding tubes are used depending on which type of
master cylinder the vehicle is equipped with. Vehicles equipped with
traction control use a center port master cylinder with a larger diameter
brake tube. Vehicles not equipped with traction control use a compensating
port master cylinder using a standard 3/16" diameter brake tube. Be sure the
correct size bleeding tubes are used when bleeding the master cylinder.
2. Install the Bleeding Tubes, Special Tool 6920 for a non traction control
master cylinder or Special Tool 8129 for a traction control master cylinder
on the master cylinder. Position bleeding tubes so the outlets of bleeding
tubes will be below surface of brake fluid when reservoir is filled to its
proper level.
3. Fill brake fluid reservoir with brake fluid conforming to DOT 3
specifications such as Mopar or an Equivalent.
4. Using a wooden dowel, depress push rod slowly, and then allow pistons to
return to released position. Repeat several times until all air bubbles are
expelled from master cylinder.
5. Remove bleeding tubes from master cylinder outlet ports, and then plug
outlet ports and install fill cap on reservoir.
6. Remove master cylinder from vise.
7. Install the filler cap from the master cylinder filler neck, on the
master cylinder fluid reservoir.
8. Install the master cylinder assembly on the power brake vacuum booster.
NOTE: It is not necessary to bleed the ABS Hydraulic Control Unit (HCU)
after replacing the master cylinder. But, the base brake hydraulic system
must be bled to ensure no air is entered the hydraulic system when the
master cylinder was removed


OPERATION
The master cylinder primary outlet port supplies hydraulic pressure to the
right front and left rear brakes. The secondary outlet port supplies
hydraulic pressure to the left front and right rear brakes. Note: primary is
closest to the booster.

Bleeding order
The use of this wheel sequence will ensure adequate removal of all trapped
air from the brake hydraulic system. (1st) - Left Rear Wheel (2nd) - Right
Front Wheel (3rd) - Right Rear Wheel (4th) - Left Front Wheel