A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto makers » Chrysler
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Coolant in the oil



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 18th 05, 08:32 PM
Daniel J. Stern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Coolant in the oil

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 wrote:

> My 1991 Plymouth Sundance RS 2.5 TBI w/ 198,000 miles on it had a blown
> head gasket since this past summer. After it was comfirmed that it was
> blown, I continued to drive the car.


Not wise.

> A few months later, the oil started to look a bit funny.


A few *months* you drove it like this? Were you *trying* to kill your car?

> Thinking that my oil was dirty (it was in there for over six months)


This kind of abuse and neglect is a large part of how certain kinds of
cars get a reputation for being "unreliable".

> The oil resembled the appearance of chocolate milk !!! There were also
> white splotches inside the valve cover. Due to liability reasons, they
> wouldn't change the oil. They told me that the head gasket was beyond
> gone and said that I needed to get it Fixed ASAP!!! (why it needed to be
> done ASAP possible is beyond me).


Because when the head gasket fails, lots of bad things happen. Coolant in
the oil. Oil in the coolant. Coolant in the combustion chamber (bye bye,
O2 sensor and catalyst!) Combustion heat where it's not supposed to be.
This is not an optional, "When I get around to it" fix.

> Well, I took my car to the shop and got the gasket replaced and some
> head work done as well. Since I've had the car back, it seems to run
> fine as far as I know.


....which appears not to be very far beyond the tip of your nose...

> What do you think happened when I drove with coolant in the oil? I
> think I drove it like that for about 20-30 miles before I got it fixed.


You drove it like that for *months* before you got it fixed. Coolant is a
rotten engine lubricant when cold, even worse when baked and whipped with
hot oil. Your main bearings, cam bearings, big and small end rod bearings
will have suffered.

But that's OK, 'cause you obviously don't care.

Honestly, some people should just walk, take the subway or ride the bus.
Ads
  #2  
Old January 19th 05, 01:03 AM
Dave Gower
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote

> Honestly, some people should just walk, take the subway or ride the bus.


More sensibly, a lot of them buy new cars and take them to the dealer for
service. They don't have a clue what's going on when they do that, but as
long as they do that it doesn't matter.

There are also times when it makes sense for a person to just drive a car
until it breaks then push it off a cliff. Having nursed along a number of
elderly K-cars and Omnirisons, I know. There comes a time when you're just
throwing good money after bad.


  #3  
Old January 19th 05, 01:07 AM
maxpower
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

clap clap clap clap
"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> >You drove it like that for *months* before you got it fixed. Coolant is a
> >rotten engine lubricant when cold, even worse when baked and whipped with
> >hot oil. Your main bearings, cam bearings, big and small end rod bearings
> >will have suffered.
> >
> >But that's OK, 'cause you obviously don't care.
> >

> ..blah, blah per Daniel J. Stern
>
> You miss the entire point of this failure mode, Dan. The objective should
> be design and fabrication perfection; ie, prevention of such failure

modes,
> so detection of these malfunctions need not be made by owners or users.
>
> Certain advances in design and construction were made in tires, for
> example. Have you noticed how rare it is to have a flat these days with
> tubeless tires? With tubes, flats were commonplace. No car company would
> think of using tubes, even if tubes cost half as much as tubeless, which
> they don't.
>
> But since I have identified the problem of head gasket failure and given
> the world the solution to same, have you seen progress in that direction?
> Even by supposedly world reknown German "craftsmen" and "engineers" there
> has not been one iota of progress towards a failsafe head design.
>
> To reinterate: No water or oil should go through any openings in the head
> gasket. The only holes in the head gasket should be cylinder bore holes
> and cylinder bolt holes. Instead, the block and head should be two
> separate, closed systems for coolant. The radiator, pump and thermostat
> all stay the same as it is now. But, water does not flow vertically from
> block to head. Instead, the coolant flows from the front to the rear of
> the block, exits the block and enters an external manifold. Therein, it
> traverses vertically to the rear of the head whereby it begins its
> horizontal flow forward and exits to continue its cycle round and round.
> To facilitate even cooling and distribution, so-called "water

distribution"
> tubes can be used. Oil is likewise transferred via an external manifold.
> The manifold would be a dual, cooland/oil manifold of cast aluminum.

There
> are no flexible lines to leak or go bad. This arrangement may require a
> certain amount of h.p. derating, but it is well worth it in terms of
> reliability.
>
> Using the above design specification, head gaskets would still "fail"
> occasionally, but the consequences would be trivial. As you observe, head
> gasket failure today in 99.99% of the cases is a slow leak of gas

pressure.
> Such a slow leak of gas would in no way be noticed in the above design as
> such gas would merely pass harmlessly to another cylinder or to the
> atmosphere. It is the small gas leak into the water jacket (or oil
> gallery) that causes the damage to today's cars.
>
> As for me, I will not buy any new car which has a tell tale chip in it
> design to reveal to the police all the information needed to put you in
> prison. This concludes my eludicating presentation for today, Daniel.
>



  #4  
Old January 19th 05, 01:12 AM
Lawrence Glickman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:07:08 -0500, "maxpower"
> wrote:

>clap clap clap clap


You really ought to see a doctor about that.

Lg

  #5  
Old January 19th 05, 01:53 AM
Anthony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nomen Nescio > wrote in
:


>>

> ..blah, blah per Daniel J. Stern


>
> But since I have identified the problem of head gasket failure and
> given the world the solution to same, have you seen progress in that
> direction? Even by supposedly world reknown German "craftsmen" and
> "engineers" there has not been one iota of progress towards a failsafe
> head design.
>
> To reinterate: No water or oil should go through any openings in the
> head gasket. The only holes in the head gasket should be cylinder
> bore holes and cylinder bolt holes. Instead, the block and head
> should be two separate, closed systems for coolant. The radiator,
> pump and thermostat all stay the same as it is now. But, water does
> not flow vertically from block to head. Instead, the coolant flows
> from the front to the rear of the block, exits the block and enters an
> external manifold.


So, you want to fix one gasketed, bolted joint, by adding MORE bolted,
gasketed joints to fail.

> Therein, it traverses vertically to the rear of
> the head whereby it begins its horizontal flow forward and exits to
> continue its cycle round and round. To facilitate even cooling and
> distribution, so-called "water distribution" tubes can be used.


So, we add even MORE sealing issues, and MORE parts

> Oil
> is likewise transferred via an external manifold. The manifold would
> be a dual, cooland/oil manifold of cast aluminum. There are no
> flexible lines to leak or go bad.


But, according to your statement above, you will be adding (presumably),
steel 'water distribution tubes', which will still require a seal, that
can fail.

> This arrangement may require a
> certain amount of h.p. derating, but it is well worth it in terms of
> reliability.


What increase in reliability? In your own words, you will be adding even
MORE bolted, gasketed joints, along with 'water distribution tubes' that
will require seals, along with ANOTHER manifold.


>
> Using the above design specification, head gaskets would still "fail"
> occasionally, but the consequences would be trivial. As you observe,
> head gasket failure today in 99.99% of the cases is a slow leak of gas
> pressure. Such a slow leak of gas would in no way be noticed in the
> above design as such gas would merely pass harmlessly to another
> cylinder or to the atmosphere. It is the small gas leak into the
> water jacket (or oil gallery) that causes the damage to today's cars.


I beg to differ. Ever seen an engine where the gas was leaking by the
seal? Easy to spot, as there will be a trench burned out from down
inside the cylinder, across the deck and head, to the exit point. The
gas is not a 'slow leak', and it isn't harmless. In that situation, it is
actually more akin to a plasma arc, and does damage just as a plasma arc
would.

>
> As for me, I will not buy any new car which has a tell tale chip in it
> design to reveal to the police all the information needed to put you
> in prison. This concludes my eludicating presentation for today,
> Daniel.
>
>


As for head gasket failures, there are many reasons, one being the need
to reduce weight in the engine, which leads to thinner, less stable
castings. You also have, thermal cycling,(remember, that engine may start
up at -50°, and reach an operating temperature of 190°. That is 240° of
metal expansion, or contraction, if you go the other way), bolt failure
(unpredicted stretch), damages during assembly, and a host of other
things.





--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email
  #6  
Old January 19th 05, 02:09 AM
Daniel J. Stern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Dave Gower wrote:

> > Honestly, some people should just walk, take the subway or ride the bus.


> More sensibly, a lot of them buy new cars and take them to the dealer
> for service. They don't have a clue what's going on when they do that,
> but as long as they do that it doesn't matter.


Please change the Subject line when you change the topic. In this case,
you've gone from talking about bad head gaskets ("Coolant in the oil") to
talking about dealer service ("Vaseline in the pants").

  #7  
Old January 19th 05, 03:36 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> >My 1991 Plymouth Sundance RS 2.5 TBI w/ 198,000 miles on it had a
blown
> >head gasket since this past summer. After it was comfirmed that it

was
> >blown, I continued to drive the car.

>
>Not wise.


I couldn't afford to fix it at the time. At times, it was the only car
I had available to drive.

>> A few months later, the oil started to look a bit funny.

>
>A few *months* you drove it like this? Were you *trying* to kill your

car?

Actually, I was thinking about getting another car at the time, so I
basically planned to drive it until it went out.

I don't know exactly the length of time I drove it like this. During
that period before the head gasket replacement, I was only using the
car like once or twice a week. I drove my parents' cars much of the
time, but I had to use my car when no other car was available.

> >Thinking that my oil was dirty (it was in there for over six months)

>
>This kind of abuse and neglect is a large part of how certain kinds of
>cars get a reputation for being "unreliable".


Anyway, I've had my car for about 4 years. It's actually been a very
dependable car. I go on a lot of long trips with it still. I really
like the car overall.

I usually keep up with maintenance and do a lot of work on the car
myself. However, at the time of the head gasket failure, I was pretty
sick at the time, had to go to the hospital in the summer, and couldn't
really do anything about it.

>> The oil resembled the appearance of chocolate milk !!! There were

also
>> white splotches inside the valve cover. Due to liability reasons,

they
>> wouldn't change the oil. They told me that the head gasket was

beyond
>> gone and said that I needed to get it Fixed ASAP!!! (why it needed

to be
>>done ASAP possible is beyond me).

>
>Because when the head gasket fails, lots of bad things happen. Coolant

in
>the oil. Oil in the coolant. Coolant in the combustion chamber (bye

bye,
>O2 sensor and catalyst!) Combustion heat where it's not supposed to

be.
>This is not an optional, "When I get around to it" fix.


The head gasket failed at the water jacket behind #1 cylinder. The shop
had told me that #1 cylinder was full of water when they disassembled
the head.

Fortunately, in my case, it appeared that pretty much all of the
ethylene glycol antifreeze had already leaked out through the exhaust
pipe. After this happened, I started to use pure tap water in the
cooling system. Apparently, the water I was putting in started to leak
into the oil. The mechanics told me that they didn't find glycol stuff
in the oil; just water. That's probably one of the reasons why I got
lucky and the engine is still running fine.

Also, after my car was fixed, I had to replace the O2 sensor. The one I
took out had white flakes all over it (possibly from the antifreeze
coolant).

>> Well, I took my car to the shop and got the gasket replaced and some
>> head work done as well. Since I've had the car back, it seems to run
>> fine as far as I know.

>
>...which appears not to be very far beyond the tip of your nose...


When the head was off, the shop did a valve job and milled/shaved the
head since it was warped. I was surprised that the head was not even
cracked. Overall, the mechanics told me that the engine is still rock
solid.

>> What do you think happened when I drove with coolant in the oil? I
>> think I drove it like that for about 20-30 miles before I got it

fixed.
>
>You drove it like that for *months* before you got it fixed. Coolant

is a
>rotten engine lubricant when cold, even worse when baked and whipped

with
>hot oil. Your main bearings, cam bearings, big and small end rod

bearings
>will have suffered.
>
>But that's OK, 'cause you obviously don't care.


I didn't really care that much at the time because I was going towards
getting another car, but I had later changed my mind and decided to get
this one fixed since my friend told me that it was cheaper in the long
run to fix what you have.

  #8  
Old January 19th 05, 04:14 AM
rob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

god lord wonder when his bearings will start to peel


not much longer I bet



"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 wrote:
>
> > My 1991 Plymouth Sundance RS 2.5 TBI w/ 198,000 miles on it had a blown
> > head gasket since this past summer. After it was comfirmed that it was
> > blown, I continued to drive the car.

>
> Not wise.
>
> > A few months later, the oil started to look a bit funny.

>
> A few *months* you drove it like this? Were you *trying* to kill your car?
>
> > Thinking that my oil was dirty (it was in there for over six months)

>
> This kind of abuse and neglect is a large part of how certain kinds of
> cars get a reputation for being "unreliable".
>
> > The oil resembled the appearance of chocolate milk !!! There were also
> > white splotches inside the valve cover. Due to liability reasons, they
> > wouldn't change the oil. They told me that the head gasket was beyond
> > gone and said that I needed to get it Fixed ASAP!!! (why it needed to be
> > done ASAP possible is beyond me).

>
> Because when the head gasket fails, lots of bad things happen. Coolant in
> the oil. Oil in the coolant. Coolant in the combustion chamber (bye bye,
> O2 sensor and catalyst!) Combustion heat where it's not supposed to be.
> This is not an optional, "When I get around to it" fix.
>
> > Well, I took my car to the shop and got the gasket replaced and some
> > head work done as well. Since I've had the car back, it seems to run
> > fine as far as I know.

>
> ...which appears not to be very far beyond the tip of your nose...
>
> > What do you think happened when I drove with coolant in the oil? I
> > think I drove it like that for about 20-30 miles before I got it fixed.

>
> You drove it like that for *months* before you got it fixed. Coolant is a
> rotten engine lubricant when cold, even worse when baked and whipped with
> hot oil. Your main bearings, cam bearings, big and small end rod bearings
> will have suffered.
>
> But that's OK, 'cause you obviously don't care.
>
> Honestly, some people should just walk, take the subway or ride the bus.



  #9  
Old January 19th 05, 04:17 AM
rob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

they found glycol in the oil allright......why do you think it looked like
chocolate milk?

lucky the head didn't crack between the valves



> wrote in message
ups.com...
> > >My 1991 Plymouth Sundance RS 2.5 TBI w/ 198,000 miles on it had a

> blown
> > >head gasket since this past summer. After it was comfirmed that it

> was
> > >blown, I continued to drive the car.

> >
> >Not wise.

>
> I couldn't afford to fix it at the time. At times, it was the only car
> I had available to drive.
>
> >> A few months later, the oil started to look a bit funny.

> >
> >A few *months* you drove it like this? Were you *trying* to kill your

> car?
>
> Actually, I was thinking about getting another car at the time, so I
> basically planned to drive it until it went out.
>
> I don't know exactly the length of time I drove it like this. During
> that period before the head gasket replacement, I was only using the
> car like once or twice a week. I drove my parents' cars much of the
> time, but I had to use my car when no other car was available.
>
> > >Thinking that my oil was dirty (it was in there for over six months)

> >
> >This kind of abuse and neglect is a large part of how certain kinds of
> >cars get a reputation for being "unreliable".

>
> Anyway, I've had my car for about 4 years. It's actually been a very
> dependable car. I go on a lot of long trips with it still. I really
> like the car overall.
>
> I usually keep up with maintenance and do a lot of work on the car
> myself. However, at the time of the head gasket failure, I was pretty
> sick at the time, had to go to the hospital in the summer, and couldn't
> really do anything about it.
>
> >> The oil resembled the appearance of chocolate milk !!! There were

> also
> >> white splotches inside the valve cover. Due to liability reasons,

> they
> >> wouldn't change the oil. They told me that the head gasket was

> beyond
> >> gone and said that I needed to get it Fixed ASAP!!! (why it needed

> to be
> >>done ASAP possible is beyond me).

> >
> >Because when the head gasket fails, lots of bad things happen. Coolant

> in
> >the oil. Oil in the coolant. Coolant in the combustion chamber (bye

> bye,
> >O2 sensor and catalyst!) Combustion heat where it's not supposed to

> be.
> >This is not an optional, "When I get around to it" fix.

>
> The head gasket failed at the water jacket behind #1 cylinder. The shop
> had told me that #1 cylinder was full of water when they disassembled
> the head.
>
> Fortunately, in my case, it appeared that pretty much all of the
> ethylene glycol antifreeze had already leaked out through the exhaust
> pipe. After this happened, I started to use pure tap water in the
> cooling system. Apparently, the water I was putting in started to leak
> into the oil. The mechanics told me that they didn't find glycol stuff
> in the oil; just water. That's probably one of the reasons why I got
> lucky and the engine is still running fine.
>
> Also, after my car was fixed, I had to replace the O2 sensor. The one I
> took out had white flakes all over it (possibly from the antifreeze
> coolant).
>
> >> Well, I took my car to the shop and got the gasket replaced and some
> >> head work done as well. Since I've had the car back, it seems to run
> >> fine as far as I know.

> >
> >...which appears not to be very far beyond the tip of your nose...

>
> When the head was off, the shop did a valve job and milled/shaved the
> head since it was warped. I was surprised that the head was not even
> cracked. Overall, the mechanics told me that the engine is still rock
> solid.
>
> >> What do you think happened when I drove with coolant in the oil? I
> >> think I drove it like that for about 20-30 miles before I got it

> fixed.
> >
> >You drove it like that for *months* before you got it fixed. Coolant

> is a
> >rotten engine lubricant when cold, even worse when baked and whipped

> with
> >hot oil. Your main bearings, cam bearings, big and small end rod

> bearings
> >will have suffered.
> >
> >But that's OK, 'cause you obviously don't care.

>
> I didn't really care that much at the time because I was going towards
> getting another car, but I had later changed my mind and decided to get
> this one fixed since my friend told me that it was cheaper in the long
> run to fix what you have.
>



  #10  
Old January 19th 05, 04:28 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>they found glycol in the oil allright......why do you think it looked
like
>chocolate milk?
>
>lucky the head didn't crack between the valves


Just pure water can give the oil a chocolate milkshake appearance. When
the mechanics drained the oil, they didn't find any of the green stuff.
I found out that actual antifreeze gives the oil more of a mayo
appearance (oil with white spots).

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jeep Cherokee Coolant Leak Ankors Chrysler 1 January 23rd 05 07:01 PM
'01 Stratus heater issues [email protected] Chrysler 10 December 17th 04 01:14 AM
Coolant level going down very slowly Jorge Fonyat Audi 8 June 11th 04 01:15 AM
Coolant leak help... Quattro Audi 3 June 7th 04 10:24 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.