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#1
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GM Headache
Get a Load O' This! An aquaintance of mine has a 2000 Grand Am. 2.4L 4 Banger. Tells me car wont start, some kind of electrical problem, or? F*#@, they dont know. He's replaced a lot of parts...still nothin. Then he says it will start while using starter fluid. I say, well...sounds like fuel pump/relay...filter etc. Oh no, Ive already changed all that. Hmmm....Intermittant electrical problem...bad ground...OBDII not sending injector signal....no spark situation ala crank sensor.. cam sensor?? So, I get over there to look at the car. He says sometimes the key wont turn. Sure enough.... key wont budge from off position! I tried everything short of tearing the dash off this ****er. On this car, if you cant turn the key, you cant remove lock cylinder, You cant take the thing out of park ( at least to move shifter lever so one can gain access to remove center console bezel) which is in the way of accessing lock assem. to remove and inspect. The long and short of it...I managed to get the ignition and lock assembly out in my lap. At this point, my question is, what is the cable attached to the lock housing? Does it release something mechanically, or just serve as a tether for the lock? Also, the three wire terminal that seems impossible to remove without destroying. "Its neatly tucked into the lock housing". The key cylinder appears to be worn to the point of not funtioning any longer. Im thinking locksmith to free it up so pin may be depressed and cylinder removed. Then, wrecking yard, to chase down additional parts. I cant troubleshoot the electrical problems until I can turn it on and see whats up? Any suggestions regarding above problem "Greatly appreciated" The road.... -- theroadisalover ------------------------------------------------------------------------ theroadisalover's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=230974 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
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#2
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GM Headache
theroadisalover > wrote in article >... > > Get a Load O' This! > > An aquaintance of mine has a 2000 Grand Am. 2.4L 4 Banger. Tells me car > wont start, some kind of electrical problem, or? F*#@, they dont know. > He's replaced a lot of parts...still nothin. Then he says it will start > while using starter fluid. I say, well...sounds like fuel > pump/relay...filter etc. Oh no, Ive already changed all that. > Hmmm....Intermittant electrical problem...bad ground...OBDII not > sending injector signal....no spark situation ala crank sensor.. cam > sensor?? > So, I get over there to look at the car. He says sometimes the key wont > turn. Sure enough.... key wont budge from off position! I tried > everything short of tearing the dash off this ****er. On this car, if > you cant turn the key, you cant remove lock cylinder, You cant take the > thing out of park ( at least to move shifter lever so one can gain > access to remove center console bezel) which is in the way of accessing > lock assem. to remove and inspect. > The long and short of it...I managed to get the ignition and lock > assembly out in my lap. At this point, my question is, what is the > cable attached to the lock housing? Does it release something > mechanically, or just serve as a tether for the lock? Also, the three > wire terminal that seems impossible to remove without destroying. "Its > neatly tucked into the lock housing". The key cylinder appears to be > worn to the point of not funtioning any longer. Im thinking locksmith > to free it up so pin may be depressed and cylinder removed. Then, > wrecking yard, to chase down additional parts. > I cant troubleshoot the electrical problems until I can turn it on and > see whats up? > > Any suggestions regarding above problem "Greatly appreciated" > > I think this is a classic situation where your "friend" certainly doesn't need any enemies........ Change a few more parts.... You MAY get lucky...... |
#3
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GM Headache
theroadisalover > wrote in
: > > Get a Load O' This! > > An aquaintance of mine has a 2000 Grand Am. 2.4L 4 Banger. Tells me car > wont start, some kind of electrical problem, or? F*#@, they dont know. > He's replaced a lot of parts...still nothin. Then he says it will start > while using starter fluid. I say, well...sounds like fuel > pump/relay...filter etc. Oh no, Ive already changed all that. > Hmmm....Intermittant electrical problem...bad ground...OBDII not > sending injector signal....no spark situation ala crank sensor.. cam > sensor?? > So, I get over there to look at the car. He says sometimes the key wont > turn. Sure enough.... key wont budge from off position! I tried > everything short of tearing the dash off this ****er. On this car, if > you cant turn the key, you cant remove lock cylinder, You cant take the > thing out of park ( at least to move shifter lever so one can gain > access to remove center console bezel) which is in the way of accessing > lock assem. to remove and inspect. > The long and short of it...I managed to get the ignition and lock > assembly out in my lap. At this point, my question is, what is the > cable attached to the lock housing? Does it release something > mechanically, or just serve as a tether for the lock? Also, the three > wire terminal that seems impossible to remove without destroying. "Its > neatly tucked into the lock housing". The key cylinder appears to be > worn to the point of not funtioning any longer. Im thinking locksmith > to free it up so pin may be depressed and cylinder removed. Then, > wrecking yard, to chase down additional parts. > I cant troubleshoot the electrical problems until I can turn it on and > see whats up? > > Any suggestions regarding above problem "Greatly appreciated" > > The road.... > > cable goes to shifter. it has 2 jobs. 1)wont allow key to turn to off unless in park..2)wont allow shifter out of park until key turned from off position...........3 wire 'tucked' terminal is theft lock wiring. you must remove cyl. assy. from lock housing b4 being able to remove this connection. first you must be able to turn ign from lock position to push release pin and release lock cyl......turn ign. = key or drill......sir, your officially in 'a can of worms'........this reply is from exp. on W patforms, your descriprion sounds identical. |
#4
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GM Headache
Warn him about the VATS system...is that what you were saying about theft lock? Might have been the problem from the beginning, unless I missed something... -- jeffcoslacker ------------------------------------------------------------------------ jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
#5
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GM Headache
jeffcoslacker > wrote in
: > > Warn him about the VATS system...is that what you were saying about > theft lock? Might have been the problem from the beginning, unless I > missed something... > > first sentence, 2nd paragraph of OP.....key wont turn |
#6
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GM Headache
KjunRaven Wrote: > jeffcoslacker > wrote in > : > > > > > Warn him about the VATS system...is that what you were saying about > > theft lock? Might have been the problem from the beginning, unless I > > missed something... > > > > > > first sentence, 2nd paragraph of OP.....key wont turn Funny, I read key won't turn SOMETIMES, but when it does, car will start on starting fluid...sounds like two different problems (key won't turn) (key turns, but no fuel delivery)...so when he fixes the key problem, he may well still have another problem to deal with (VATS?). You have to read more than the first few words and assume you know what was said... -- jeffcoslacker ------------------------------------------------------------------------ jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
#7
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GM Headache
jeffcoslacker > wrote in
: > > KjunRaven Wrote: >> jeffcoslacker > wrote in >> : >> >> > >> > Warn him about the VATS system...is that what you were saying about >> > theft lock? Might have been the problem from the beginning, unless I >> > missed something... >> > >> > >> >> first sentence, 2nd paragraph of OP.....key wont turn > > Funny, I read key won't turn SOMETIMES, but when it does, car will > start on starting fluid...sounds like two different problems (key won't > turn) (key turns, but no fuel delivery)...so when he fixes the key > problem, he may well still have another problem to deal with (VATS?). > > You have to read more than the first few words and assume you know what > was said... > > oh , i read the entire post. the wall he was up against at the time was just getting the key to turn to be able to find any other probs. you have to understand the order in which he is approaching problems before you lead the poster off track. |
#8
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GM Headache
Say Guys, Thanks for the response...Id be screwed without it, I assure you. Personally, the last time I had to get into a key cylinder was a 90's ish Buick. I went for a good 10 years without turning wrenches as I got involved with Premise wiring for Computers/Telephone systems. As is evident in my original post, the new type of anti-theft hardware/software in cars has changed considerably since I have have stumbled back into it! To clear up a misunderstanding on the "key turning issue" Your both sort of correct at the same time. Ok, My friend tells me "Sometimes the key wont turn out of "Off" position. Well...sometimes my ass...it never even acted like it was going anywhere for me. So, while it supposedly operated some of the time for him, no go later after I darkened the door! Armed with some basic info and a dig multi-meter, Im approaching it like this: We're dealing with a PCM/BCM Key cylinder with mag field, but no sensor. So it simply sees when key is turning and grants permission to fire up systems. However, Im still baffled about key not turning in Ignition.. Short of key cylinder being simply worn out of course, I was trying to make sense of the original problem in the first place. Since some systems recognize keys as being correct for a particular vehicle, What, in East Jehosafat, is the problem with this piece of work? Could we be dealing with faulty electronic/software snufu's combined with a worn out lock. I scoured the automotive forums for answers, but didnt exactly get run over in the pontiac forum. This forum seems to have a lot more experienced eye's on the more difficult subjects. Thinking back on the history of my involvement on this vehicle, Ive observed the following or been informed: 1. A 2000 GA which had original motor burned up within a year. 2. A good used motor put in its place consiquentially (ahem...) 3. They say the car has been running great since then.4. My first sight of the conditions in which the vehicle has been cared for/maintained...Under the hood....wiring exposed in several areas for the purpose of testing ( Though... I would not leave said wiring in this shape even for a moment while trying to do a systematic problem solve ) 5.Overall apparent cond. haphazardly dishelved but workable....I think. This guy needs to be kept as far away from the interwokings of an automobile as possible.6. I band-aided the wiring for now and propose solder and shrink wrap before I sew the thing up. Every picture tells a story dont it, and this one is no exception. Ok, So where I am now, in my estimation is....When I am able to actually turn key, check for security light on IP. If present, why. Learn from researching prob. and talking to you guys what snafu might be/ prove to be. And finally, since I have butchered the ignition switch and housing trying to Exorsize it, what sort of little tidbit parts or special tools might I want on hand to put it back together (Namely, the cable assem. I spoke of and the three wire connector I plucked out of the housing ( the connector is still intact) Anything come to mind to watch out for or perhaps a sequence of problem solving that would prove helpful. Jokes are welcome....one would have to be a little crazy to work on cars. Laughter helps get u through the rough spots. This reminds me of a chart I read in the office of an Audio/Video equipment installer. ( A supposed substitute fuse where real fuse is not availible.) They started with foil, light wire, nails, and my favorite....A bolt was shown as a high capacity fuse...referred to as a.... Slow Burn..... Thanks Guys for what ever you can do..... the road -- theroadisalover ------------------------------------------------------------------------ theroadisalover's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=230974 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
#9
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GM Headache
theroadisalover Wrote: > Say Guys, > > Thanks for the response...Id be screwed without it, I assure you. > Personally, the last time I had to get into a key cylinder was a 90's > ish Buick. I went for a good 10 years without turning wrenches as I got > involved with Premise wiring for Computers/Telephone systems. As is > evident in my original post, the new type of anti-theft > hardware/software in cars has changed considerably since I have have > stumbled back into it! > To clear up a misunderstanding on the "key turning issue" Your both > sort of correct at the same time. Ok, My friend tells me "Sometimes the > key wont turn out of "Off" position. Well...sometimes my ass...it never > even acted like it was going anywhere for me. So, while it supposedly > operated some of the time for him, no go later after I darkened the > door! Armed with some basic info and a dig multi-meter, Im approaching > it like this: We're dealing with a PCM/BCM Key cylinder with mag field, > but no sensor. So it simply sees when key is turning and grants > permission to fire up systems. However, Im still baffled about key not > turning in Ignition.. Short of key cylinder being simply worn out of > course, I was trying to make sense of the original problem in the first > place. Since some systems recognize keys as being correct for a > particular vehicle, What, in East Jehosafat, is the problem with this > piece of work? Could we be dealing with faulty electronic/software > snufu's combined with a worn out lock. I scoured the automotive forums > for answers, but didnt exactly get run over in the pontiac forum. This > forum seems to have a lot more experienced eye's on the more difficult > subjects. Thinking back on the history of my involvement on this > vehicle, Ive observed the following or been informed: 1. A 2000 GA > which had original motor burned up within a year. 2. A good used motor > put in its place consiquentially (ahem...) 3. They say the car has been > running great since then.4. My first sight of the conditions in which > the vehicle has been cared for/maintained...Under the hood....wiring > exposed in several areas for the purpose of testing ( Though... I would > not leave said wiring in this shape even for a moment while trying to do > a systematic problem solve ) 5.Overall apparent cond. haphazardly > dishelved but workable....I think. This guy needs to be kept as far > away from the interwokings of an automobile as possible.6. I band-aided > the wiring for now and propose solder and shrink wrap before I sew the > thing up. Every picture tells a story dont it, and this one is no > exception. > Ok, So where I am now, in my estimation is....When I am able to > actually turn key, check for security light on IP. If present, why. > Learn from researching prob. and talking to you guys what snafu might > be/ prove to be. And finally, since I have butchered the ignition > switch and housing trying to Exorsize it, what sort of little tidbit > parts or special tools might I want on hand to put it back together > (Namely, the cable assem. I spoke of and the three wire connector I > plucked out of the housing ( the connector is still intact) > Anything come to mind to watch out for or perhaps a sequence of problem > solving that would prove helpful. > > Jokes are welcome....one would have to be a little crazy to work on > cars. Laughter helps get u through the rough spots. > > This reminds me of a chart I read in the office of an Audio/Video > equipment installer. ( A supposed substitute fuse where real fuse is > not availible.) > They started with foil, light wire, nails, and my favorite....A bolt > was shown as a high capacity fuse...referred to as a.... Slow Burn..... > > Thanks Guys for what ever you can do..... > > the road I'm still a little lost. Does it have VATS or not? If so (square chip in key) the VATS resistor has to make contact with two contacts in the cylinder or the car will not start. You can probe the contacts on the VATS chip and read the resistance, and substitute a standard resistor shunted into the wires for the VATS if doing so helps in any way (like to verify that it is disarmed while trying to figure out why the key won't turn) so if you remove the ignition lock and turn the switch manually, you still have to have the correct resistance present in that circuit...I'm no good with cylinders, my experience is mostly limited to pulling them out with a slide hammer prior to reposessing the car, but that gets you nowhere with a VATS equipped system. Dumb question, but the cylinder is not in a torque lock because he shut it off with the wheels turned, is it? -- jeffcoslacker ------------------------------------------------------------------------ jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638 View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
#10
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GM Headache
In article >,
jeffcoslacker > wrote: > I'm still a little lost. Does it have VATS or not? If so (square chip > in key) GM hasn't used VATS in about ten years. PATS replaces VATS and works entirely different. |
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