Alignment Expert Needed: Axle offset?

jim beam > wrote in article
>.. .
> TomC wrote:
> > Tegger > wrote in article
> > >...
> >> "TomC" > wrote in
> >> st.net.:
> >>
> >>> Vehicle 2000 Accord 4dr. V6 Automatic 81,000 miles, bought new. New
> >>> Tires and alignment just done. However, the car's rear wheels do not
> >>> track the front wheels; slightly offset to the right looking at the
> >>> car from the rear. Slight oversteer in a curve to the right. Tire
shop
> >>> says the axle offset is 0 according to their alignment equipment. So,
> >>> they say nothing is wrong. The car's original tires lasted 60,000 mi.
> >>> (Michlens). I replaced them with Traction T/A's and they were
> >>> horrible; poor wear, noisy (I missed rotating untill about
12,000miles
> >>> and by then they were ruined). I believe part of the problem was this
> >>> axle offset issue. How it came about is a mystery. Prior to replacing
> >>> these tires, I tried to get the alignment issues fixed at a Honda
> >>> dealer, but they seemed more intersted in selling new tires and cabin
> >>> filters. So, they were little help. How do I get this axle offset
> >>> checked and corrected ?
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> The "dog-tracking" you describe is normal.
> >>
> >> So long as the alignment shop made sure the front wheels were properly

> >> aligned to the centerline bisecting the rear wheels, it is acceptable
to
> >> have some dog-tracking, and perfectly acceptable for the rear axle
> >> centerline to diverge from the body's centerline.
> >>
> >> Both sides of the rear end of your car are adjustable for toe. Ideally

> >> you'd adjust the toe on both sides so the rear axle centerline
coincides
> >> with the car's body's centerline. But it's common practice for
alignment
> >> techs to only adjust one side if the rear toe isn't far out, resulting

> >> isn some harmless dog-tracking.
> >>
> >> Having said the above, it is NOT acceptable to have LOTS of dog-
> >> tracking though. And it is NOT sufficient to simply point to the
numbers
> >> the machine gives you and say the car's been set up properly.
Sometimes
> >> a bit of fudge and squish is necessary to do the job right, and that's

> >> where skill comes in rather than simple menu-following.
> >>
> >> The tire wear you eperienced is not necessarily due to any centerline
> >> issue. It can also be due to bad mounting, poor quality tires, worn
> >> shocks and a host of other suspension problems. Most likely the tires
> >> were badly mounted to begin with.
> >>
> >> Your factory tires were mounted by expertly-trained people. Your
> >> replacements were not.
> >>
> >> I have found that most tires are mounted very badly. Tire shops have
> >> badly trained personnel who have no clue how to get the tires to spin
> >> true before balancing. They just slap them on the wheels (using the
> >> wrong lube while they're at it) and load the wheel up with weights.
The
> >> tires may end up feeling smooth to you, but with each revolution they
> >> are scrubbing themselves unevenly against the pavement, eventually
> >> wrecking the tread.
> >>
> >> Does the car track straight, hands off the wheel? Does it follow the
> >> road crown equally both sides of the crown? Then you're likely fine as

> >> far as alignment goes. If the tires are that bad, you need to replace
> >> them, and have the job done by a competent shop. Those are hard to
find.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tegger
> >>
> >> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> >> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
> >>
> > If you think any dogtracking is acceptable, then you've said more than
I
> > need to know from you!
> > TomC
>
> chill. tegger's a good guy and hosts the unofficial honda, a fantastic
> resource. check them out at tegger.com. he can be a little too
> trusting when it comes to suspension advice from his mechanic, but we
> can't all be experts in everything.
>
1,2,3...Ok; I'm calm now. It's just that this "close enough" attitude is
getting really bad; and, pervasive. I run into it in the building trades,
auto industries, health care, manufacturing, and etc.. and it's really
getting old.
TomC

"TomC" > wrote in
st.net.:

>

>>
> 1,2,3...Ok; I'm calm now. It's just that this "close enough" attitude
> is getting really bad; and, pervasive. I run into it in the building
> trades, auto industries, health care, manufacturing, and etc.. and
> it's really getting old.
> TomC
>



Point is, it's not the body that matters, it's the suspension. Sure, it
"should" be perfect, but usually isn't. And nobody ever knows, or suffers
for that. Did you know that some cars came from the factory with rear toe
adjustment on only one side?

What I was trying to say is that your tire issues are almost 100% certain
to be simple ham-fisted tire installation rather than the dog-tracking that
has you all in tizzy.

I suggest here that it is very likely you'll end up having the suspension
set up six ways to Sunday by everybody and his dog, and it will make no
difference whatsoever.

Find a competent tire shop.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger > wrote in article
>...
> "TomC" > wrote in
> st.net.:
>
> >
>
> >>
> > 1,2,3...Ok; I'm calm now. It's just that this "close enough" attitude
> > is getting really bad; and, pervasive. I run into it in the building
> > trades, auto industries, health care, manufacturing, and etc.. and
> > it's really getting old.
> > TomC
> >
>
>
>
> Point is, it's not the body that matters, it's the suspension. Sure, it
> "should" be perfect, but usually isn't. And nobody ever knows, or suffers

> for that. Did you know that some cars came from the factory with rear toe

> adjustment on only one side?
>
> What I was trying to say is that your tire issues are almost 100% certain

> to be simple ham-fisted tire installation rather than the dog-tracking
that
> has you all in tizzy.
>
> I suggest here that it is very likely you'll end up having the suspension

> set up six ways to Sunday by everybody and his dog, and it will make no
> difference whatsoever.
>
> Find a competent tire shop.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
Let me see if I understand this correctly. My Honda Accord V6 is probably
capable of sustained speeds in excess of 120mph and came equipped with
speed rated tires to 140mph. but, according to you it would be perfectly
safe to operate this car in those ranges with dog-tracking; e.g.going down
the road sideways. UNBELIVABLE! You say nobody suffers for it...fatal
accident victims don't talk. Reread the original post! The car oversteers
to the right. Under the right (wrong) conditions the rear end of this car
could prematurely spin out.
If your attitude is indicative of the prevaling attitude in the industry
it's no wonder that I can't get a simple alignment done properly.
Competency of a tire shop can only be judged by what they've done for the
customer and, unfortunately, in this case; not much.
TomC

ACAR > wrote in article
.com>...
> On Feb 13, 9:07 am, jim beam > wrote:
> >
> > honda handling is /particularly/ sensitive to rear toe, so it's
> > essential this be done right. again, front and rear toe /is/
> > adjustable, therefore thrust is adjustable and should be set straight
as
> > an arrow. only a bent frame prevents this being achieved, and then,
> > only when the frame is bent beyond adjustment limits.
> >
>
> FWIW, my best alignment experience has been with a collision repair
> shop that operates their own alignment system, complete with frame
> straightening equipment. They claim few cars are really straight from
> the factory but nearly all are easily put square.
>
>
Thanks for the advice. That may be my last best hope.
TomC

"TomC" > wrote in
st.net.:

>
>
> Tegger > wrote in article
> >...
>> "TomC" > wrote in
>> st.net.:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >>
>> > 1,2,3...Ok; I'm calm now. It's just that this "close enough"
>> > attitude is getting really bad; and, pervasive. I run into it in
>> > the building trades, auto industries, health care, manufacturing,
>> > and etc.. and it's really getting old.
>> > TomC
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Point is, it's not the body that matters, it's the suspension. Sure,
>> it "should" be perfect, but usually isn't. And nobody ever knows, or
>> suffers
>
>> for that. Did you know that some cars came from the factory with rear
>> toe
>
>> adjustment on only one side?
>>
>> What I was trying to say is that your tire issues are almost 100%
>> certain
>
>> to be simple ham-fisted tire installation rather than the
>> dog-tracking
> that
>> has you all in tizzy.
>>
>> I suggest here that it is very likely you'll end up having the
>> suspension
>
>> set up six ways to Sunday by everybody and his dog, and it will make
>> no difference whatsoever.
>>
>> Find a competent tire shop.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Let me see if I understand this correctly. My Honda Accord V6 is
> probably capable of sustained speeds in excess of 120mph and came
> equipped with speed rated tires to 140mph. but, according to you it
> would be perfectly safe to operate this car in those ranges with
> dog-tracking; e.g.going down the road sideways. UNBELIVABLE!



Dog tracking is perfectly OK -- within limits, as I said way back. Some
perfectly acceptable cars come that way from the factory.

You've never have said how bad the dog-tracking was. A quarter inch? A
quarter of a tire's width? Is it the same in/out on both sides? How are
you measuring it?

Dog-tracking that results from a collision is a different sort of animal
though. It may not be possible to properly align a car with a bent
unibody. But your alignment shop will be able to tell you if this is the
case for your car.



> You say
> nobody suffers for it...fatal accident victims don't talk. Reread the
> original post! The car oversteers to the right.



It doesn't. At least not because the body is slightly askew above the
suspension. an angled thrust centerline is NOT the same as "oversteer".

If your car pulls to the right, then you either have a bad tire, a poor
alignment job, or the steering wheel is off-center. That's why I asked
you whether or not the car pulled equally towards the "down" side of the
road crown from either side with your hands off the wheel.

You don't have to take my word for any of this. Try posting your
original message to the Usenet group rec.autos.tech . This group has at
least six actual working technicians (unlike here) with vast experience.
I don't believe you'll hear anything different from what I've said so
far.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
> "TomC" > wrote in
> st.net.:
>
>
>> 1,2,3...Ok; I'm calm now. It's just that this "close enough" attitude
>> is getting really bad; and, pervasive. I run into it in the building
>> trades, auto industries, health care, manufacturing, and etc.. and
>> it's really getting old.
>> TomC
>>
>
>
>
> Point is, it's not the body that matters, it's the suspension. Sure, it
> "should" be perfect, but usually isn't. And nobody ever knows, or suffers
> for that. Did you know that some cars came from the factory with rear toe
> adjustment on only one side?
>
> What I was trying to say is that your tire issues are almost 100% certain
> to be simple ham-fisted tire installation rather than the dog-tracking that
> has you all in tizzy.

its really hard to install a tire wrong on a "j" rim - the
circumferential humps hold the beads in position. crap tires and crap
balancing are much more common.

>
> I suggest here that it is very likely you'll end up having the suspension
> set up six ways to Sunday by everybody and his dog, and it will make no
> difference whatsoever.

but it does. before i finally got my civic right, i took it to 4
different shops and got 6 alignments. each one was scarily different.

>
> Find a competent tire shop.
>

ACAR wrote:
> On Feb 13, 9:07 am, jim beam > wrote:
>> honda handling is /particularly/ sensitive to rear toe, so it's
>> essential this be done right. again, front and rear toe /is/
>> adjustable, therefore thrust is adjustable and should be set straight as
>> an arrow. only a bent frame prevents this being achieved, and then,
>> only when the frame is bent beyond adjustment limits.
>>
>
> FWIW, my best alignment experience has been with a collision repair
> shop that operates their own alignment system, complete with frame
> straightening equipment. They claim few cars are really straight from
> the factory but nearly all are easily put square.
>

you got real lucky there - i've yet to find a place that good in my neck
of the woods.

jim beam > wrote in
:

> Tegger wrote:

>>
>> What I was trying to say is that your tire issues are almost 100%
>> certain to be simple ham-fisted tire installation rather than the
>> dog-tracking that has you all in tizzy.
>
> its really hard to install a tire wrong on a "j" rim - the
> circumferential humps hold the beads in position. crap tires and crap
> balancing are much more common.



If you study a problematic tire after it's mounted, you'll see the bead is
sometimes not seated evenly all around, even on a JJ rim. Some portions of
the bead will be seated more deeply than others. This is partially what
causes the out-of-round and "wobble" so many tires have. Tire shops tend to
use the wrong lube (often something like dish detergent) instead of proper
tire lube, so there's uneven friction when the bead is seated.

And next time you watch tire monkeys at work, see how few of them check for
trueness after they seat the bead. And see how even fewer bother with those
colored dots for high point and light point. Get those in the wrong place
and you can have a tire that balances perfectly on the machine, but feels
like **** when you drive.


>
>>
>> I suggest here that it is very likely you'll end up having the
>> suspension set up six ways to Sunday by everybody and his dog, and it
>> will make no difference whatsoever.
>
> but it does. before i finally got my civic right, i took it to 4
> different shops and got 6 alignments. each one was scarily different.



But it wouldn't make much difference to the tires, is what I'm saying.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> :
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>
>>> What I was trying to say is that your tire issues are almost 100%
>>> certain to be simple ham-fisted tire installation rather than the
>>> dog-tracking that has you all in tizzy.
>> its really hard to install a tire wrong on a "j" rim - the
>> circumferential humps hold the beads in position. crap tires and crap
>> balancing are much more common.
>
>
>
> If you study a problematic tire after it's mounted, you'll see the bead is
> sometimes not seated evenly all around, even on a JJ rim. Some portions of
> the bead will be seated more deeply than others. This is partially what
> causes the out-of-round and "wobble" so many tires have. Tire shops tend to
> use the wrong lube (often something like dish detergent) instead of proper
> tire lube, so there's uneven friction when the bead is seated.
>
> And next time you watch tire monkeys at work, see how few of them check for
> trueness after they seat the bead. And see how even fewer bother with those
> colored dots for high point and light point. Get those in the wrong place
> and you can have a tire that balances perfectly on the machine, but feels
> like **** when you drive.

there's two factors here - cheap tires and the slime they use when
fitting. basically, i've never seen anyone /not/ use that slime stuff
because it's pretty much essential to getting the initial seal necessary
to inflate the tires past the humps. cheap tires are a whole different
ball of wax - and some of them are truly appalling. colored dots won't
improve that situation, and they don't affect how balance shifts when
cheap tires wear unevenly.

>
>
>>> I suggest here that it is very likely you'll end up having the
>>> suspension set up six ways to Sunday by everybody and his dog, and it
>>> will make no difference whatsoever.
>> but it does. before i finally got my civic right, i took it to 4
>> different shops and got 6 alignments. each one was scarily different.
>
>
>
> But it wouldn't make much difference to the tires, is what I'm saying.

it makes a huge difference to wear [obviously]. but frankly, i don't
care about wear anywhere /near/ as much as i do about handling, and to
handle "just so" means it's got to be done right. it's easy enough to
not bother with it just pottering about town or a freeway commute, but
on the twisties, at the adhesion limit, it's crucial.

On Feb 14, 12:52 am, jim beam > wrote:
> ACAR wrote:
>
> > FWIW, my best alignment experience has been with a collision repair
> > shop that operates their own alignment system, complete with frame
> > straightening equipment. They claim few cars are really straight from
> > the factory but nearly all are easily put square.
>
> you got real lucky there - i've yet to find a place that good in my neck
> of the woods.

Here's the trick; find a shop qualified to fix an Acura NSX. Only a
very few shops in my area are. Your insurance company will know these
shops as should any Acura dealer.