GM Headache

Get a Load O' This!

An aquaintance of mine has a 2000 Grand Am. 2.4L 4 Banger. Tells me car
wont start, some kind of electrical problem, or? F*#@, they dont know.
He's replaced a lot of parts...still nothin. Then he says it will start
while using starter fluid. I say, well...sounds like fuel
pump/relay...filter etc. Oh no, Ive already changed all that.
Hmmm....Intermittant electrical problem...bad ground...OBDII not
sending injector signal....no spark situation ala crank sensor.. cam
sensor??
So, I get over there to look at the car. He says sometimes the key wont
turn. Sure enough.... key wont budge from off position! I tried
everything short of tearing the dash off this ****er. On this car, if
you cant turn the key, you cant remove lock cylinder, You cant take the
thing out of park ( at least to move shifter lever so one can gain
access to remove center console bezel) which is in the way of accessing
lock assem. to remove and inspect.
The long and short of it...I managed to get the ignition and lock
assembly out in my lap. At this point, my question is, what is the
cable attached to the lock housing? Does it release something
mechanically, or just serve as a tether for the lock? Also, the three
wire terminal that seems impossible to remove without destroying. "Its
neatly tucked into the lock housing". The key cylinder appears to be
worn to the point of not funtioning any longer. Im thinking locksmith
to free it up so pin may be depressed and cylinder removed. Then,
wrecking yard, to chase down additional parts.
I cant troubleshoot the electrical problems until I can turn it on and
see whats up?

Any suggestions regarding above problem "Greatly appreciated"

The road....


--
theroadisalover
------------------------------------------------------------------------
theroadisalover's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=230974
View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597

http://www.automotiveforums.com

theroadisalover > wrote in
article >...
>
> Get a Load O' This!
>
> An aquaintance of mine has a 2000 Grand Am. 2.4L 4 Banger. Tells me car
> wont start, some kind of electrical problem, or? F*#@, they dont know.
> He's replaced a lot of parts...still nothin. Then he says it will start
> while using starter fluid. I say, well...sounds like fuel
> pump/relay...filter etc. Oh no, Ive already changed all that.
> Hmmm....Intermittant electrical problem...bad ground...OBDII not
> sending injector signal....no spark situation ala crank sensor.. cam
> sensor??
> So, I get over there to look at the car. He says sometimes the key wont
> turn. Sure enough.... key wont budge from off position! I tried
> everything short of tearing the dash off this ****er. On this car, if
> you cant turn the key, you cant remove lock cylinder, You cant take the
> thing out of park ( at least to move shifter lever so one can gain
> access to remove center console bezel) which is in the way of accessing
> lock assem. to remove and inspect.
> The long and short of it...I managed to get the ignition and lock
> assembly out in my lap. At this point, my question is, what is the
> cable attached to the lock housing? Does it release something
> mechanically, or just serve as a tether for the lock? Also, the three
> wire terminal that seems impossible to remove without destroying. "Its
> neatly tucked into the lock housing". The key cylinder appears to be
> worn to the point of not funtioning any longer. Im thinking locksmith
> to free it up so pin may be depressed and cylinder removed. Then,
> wrecking yard, to chase down additional parts.
> I cant troubleshoot the electrical problems until I can turn it on and
> see whats up?
>
> Any suggestions regarding above problem "Greatly appreciated"
>
>


I think this is a classic situation where your "friend" certainly doesn't
need any enemies........

Change a few more parts....

You MAY get lucky......

theroadisalover > wrote in
:

>
> Get a Load O' This!
>
> An aquaintance of mine has a 2000 Grand Am. 2.4L 4 Banger. Tells me car
> wont start, some kind of electrical problem, or? F*#@, they dont know.
> He's replaced a lot of parts...still nothin. Then he says it will start
> while using starter fluid. I say, well...sounds like fuel
> pump/relay...filter etc. Oh no, Ive already changed all that.
> Hmmm....Intermittant electrical problem...bad ground...OBDII not
> sending injector signal....no spark situation ala crank sensor.. cam
> sensor??
> So, I get over there to look at the car. He says sometimes the key wont
> turn. Sure enough.... key wont budge from off position! I tried
> everything short of tearing the dash off this ****er. On this car, if
> you cant turn the key, you cant remove lock cylinder, You cant take the
> thing out of park ( at least to move shifter lever so one can gain
> access to remove center console bezel) which is in the way of accessing
> lock assem. to remove and inspect.
> The long and short of it...I managed to get the ignition and lock
> assembly out in my lap. At this point, my question is, what is the
> cable attached to the lock housing? Does it release something
> mechanically, or just serve as a tether for the lock? Also, the three
> wire terminal that seems impossible to remove without destroying. "Its
> neatly tucked into the lock housing". The key cylinder appears to be
> worn to the point of not funtioning any longer. Im thinking locksmith
> to free it up so pin may be depressed and cylinder removed. Then,
> wrecking yard, to chase down additional parts.
> I cant troubleshoot the electrical problems until I can turn it on and
> see whats up?
>
> Any suggestions regarding above problem "Greatly appreciated"
>
> The road....
>
>

cable goes to shifter. it has 2 jobs. 1)wont allow key to turn to off
unless in park..2)wont allow shifter out of park until key turned from
off position...........3 wire 'tucked' terminal is theft lock wiring. you
must remove cyl. assy. from lock housing b4 being able to remove this
connection. first you must be able to turn ign from lock position to push
release pin and release lock cyl......turn ign. = key or drill......sir,
your officially in 'a can of worms'........this reply is from exp. on W
patforms, your descriprion sounds identical.

Warn him about the VATS system...is that what you were saying about
theft lock? Might have been the problem from the beginning, unless I
missed something...


--
jeffcoslacker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638
View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597

http://www.automotiveforums.com

jeffcoslacker > wrote in
:

>
> Warn him about the VATS system...is that what you were saying about
> theft lock? Might have been the problem from the beginning, unless I
> missed something...
>
>

first sentence, 2nd paragraph of OP.....key wont turn

KjunRaven Wrote:
> jeffcoslacker > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > Warn him about the VATS system...is that what you were saying about
> > theft lock? Might have been the problem from the beginning, unless I
> > missed something...
> >
> >
>
> first sentence, 2nd paragraph of OP.....key wont turn

Funny, I read key won't turn SOMETIMES, but when it does, car will
start on starting fluid...sounds like two different problems (key won't
turn) (key turns, but no fuel delivery)...so when he fixes the key
problem, he may well still have another problem to deal with (VATS?).

You have to read more than the first few words and assume you know what
was said...


--
jeffcoslacker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638
View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597

http://www.automotiveforums.com

jeffcoslacker > wrote in
:

>
> KjunRaven Wrote:
>> jeffcoslacker > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >
>> > Warn him about the VATS system...is that what you were saying about
>> > theft lock? Might have been the problem from the beginning, unless I
>> > missed something...
>> >
>> >
>>
>> first sentence, 2nd paragraph of OP.....key wont turn
>
> Funny, I read key won't turn SOMETIMES, but when it does, car will
> start on starting fluid...sounds like two different problems (key won't
> turn) (key turns, but no fuel delivery)...so when he fixes the key
> problem, he may well still have another problem to deal with (VATS?).
>
> You have to read more than the first few words and assume you know what
> was said...
>
>

oh , i read the entire post. the wall he was up against at the time was
just getting the key to turn to be able to find any other probs.

you have to understand the order in which he is approaching problems before
you lead the poster off track.

Say Guys,

Thanks for the response...Id be screwed without it, I assure you.
Personally, the last time I had to get into a key cylinder was a 90's
ish Buick. I went for a good 10 years without turning wrenches as I got
involved with Premise wiring for Computers/Telephone systems. As is
evident in my original post, the new type of anti-theft
hardware/software in cars has changed considerably since I have have
stumbled back into it!
To clear up a misunderstanding on the "key turning issue" Your both
sort of correct at the same time. Ok, My friend tells me "Sometimes the
key wont turn out of "Off" position. Well...sometimes my ass...it never
even acted like it was going anywhere for me. So, while it supposedly
operated some of the time for him, no go later after I darkened the
door! Armed with some basic info and a dig multi-meter, Im approaching
it like this: We're dealing with a PCM/BCM Key cylinder with mag field,
but no sensor. So it simply sees when key is turning and grants
permission to fire up systems. However, Im still baffled about key not
turning in Ignition.. Short of key cylinder being simply worn out of
course, I was trying to make sense of the original problem in the first
place. Since some systems recognize keys as being correct for a
particular vehicle, What, in East Jehosafat, is the problem with this
piece of work? Could we be dealing with faulty electronic/software
snufu's combined with a worn out lock. I scoured the automotive forums
for answers, but didnt exactly get run over in the pontiac forum. This
forum seems to have a lot more experienced eye's on the more difficult
subjects. Thinking back on the history of my involvement on this
vehicle, Ive observed the following or been informed: 1. A 2000 GA
which had original motor burned up within a year. 2. A good used motor
put in its place consiquentially (ahem...) 3. They say the car has been
running great since then.4. My first sight of the conditions in which
the vehicle has been cared for/maintained...Under the hood....wiring
exposed in several areas for the purpose of testing ( Though... I would
not leave said wiring in this shape even for a moment while trying to do
a systematic problem solve ) 5.Overall apparent cond. haphazardly
dishelved but workable....I think. This guy needs to be kept as far
away from the interwokings of an automobile as possible.6. I band-aided
the wiring for now and propose solder and shrink wrap before I sew the
thing up. Every picture tells a story dont it, and this one is no
exception.
Ok, So where I am now, in my estimation is....When I am able to
actually turn key, check for security light on IP. If present, why.
Learn from researching prob. and talking to you guys what snafu might
be/ prove to be. And finally, since I have butchered the ignition
switch and housing trying to Exorsize it, what sort of little tidbit
parts or special tools might I want on hand to put it back together
(Namely, the cable assem. I spoke of and the three wire connector I
plucked out of the housing ( the connector is still intact)
Anything come to mind to watch out for or perhaps a sequence of problem
solving that would prove helpful.

Jokes are welcome....one would have to be a little crazy to work on
cars. Laughter helps get u through the rough spots.

This reminds me of a chart I read in the office of an Audio/Video
equipment installer. ( A supposed substitute fuse where real fuse is
not availible.)
They started with foil, light wire, nails, and my favorite....A bolt
was shown as a high capacity fuse...referred to as a.... Slow
Burn.....

Thanks Guys for what ever you can do.....

the road


--
theroadisalover
------------------------------------------------------------------------
theroadisalover's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=230974
View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597

http://www.automotiveforums.com

theroadisalover Wrote:
> Say Guys,
>
> Thanks for the response...Id be screwed without it, I assure you.
> Personally, the last time I had to get into a key cylinder was a 90's
> ish Buick. I went for a good 10 years without turning wrenches as I got
> involved with Premise wiring for Computers/Telephone systems. As is
> evident in my original post, the new type of anti-theft
> hardware/software in cars has changed considerably since I have have
> stumbled back into it!
> To clear up a misunderstanding on the "key turning issue" Your both
> sort of correct at the same time. Ok, My friend tells me "Sometimes the
> key wont turn out of "Off" position. Well...sometimes my ass...it never
> even acted like it was going anywhere for me. So, while it supposedly
> operated some of the time for him, no go later after I darkened the
> door! Armed with some basic info and a dig multi-meter, Im approaching
> it like this: We're dealing with a PCM/BCM Key cylinder with mag field,
> but no sensor. So it simply sees when key is turning and grants
> permission to fire up systems. However, Im still baffled about key not
> turning in Ignition.. Short of key cylinder being simply worn out of
> course, I was trying to make sense of the original problem in the first
> place. Since some systems recognize keys as being correct for a
> particular vehicle, What, in East Jehosafat, is the problem with this
> piece of work? Could we be dealing with faulty electronic/software
> snufu's combined with a worn out lock. I scoured the automotive forums
> for answers, but didnt exactly get run over in the pontiac forum. This
> forum seems to have a lot more experienced eye's on the more difficult
> subjects. Thinking back on the history of my involvement on this
> vehicle, Ive observed the following or been informed: 1. A 2000 GA
> which had original motor burned up within a year. 2. A good used motor
> put in its place consiquentially (ahem...) 3. They say the car has been
> running great since then.4. My first sight of the conditions in which
> the vehicle has been cared for/maintained...Under the hood....wiring
> exposed in several areas for the purpose of testing ( Though... I would
> not leave said wiring in this shape even for a moment while trying to do
> a systematic problem solve ) 5.Overall apparent cond. haphazardly
> dishelved but workable....I think. This guy needs to be kept as far
> away from the interwokings of an automobile as possible.6. I band-aided
> the wiring for now and propose solder and shrink wrap before I sew the
> thing up. Every picture tells a story dont it, and this one is no
> exception.
> Ok, So where I am now, in my estimation is....When I am able to
> actually turn key, check for security light on IP. If present, why.
> Learn from researching prob. and talking to you guys what snafu might
> be/ prove to be. And finally, since I have butchered the ignition
> switch and housing trying to Exorsize it, what sort of little tidbit
> parts or special tools might I want on hand to put it back together
> (Namely, the cable assem. I spoke of and the three wire connector I
> plucked out of the housing ( the connector is still intact)
> Anything come to mind to watch out for or perhaps a sequence of problem
> solving that would prove helpful.
>
> Jokes are welcome....one would have to be a little crazy to work on
> cars. Laughter helps get u through the rough spots.
>
> This reminds me of a chart I read in the office of an Audio/Video
> equipment installer. ( A supposed substitute fuse where real fuse is
> not availible.)
> They started with foil, light wire, nails, and my favorite....A bolt
> was shown as a high capacity fuse...referred to as a.... Slow Burn.....
>
> Thanks Guys for what ever you can do.....
>
> the road

I'm still a little lost. Does it have VATS or not? If so (square chip
in key) the VATS resistor has to make contact with two contacts in the
cylinder or the car will not start. You can probe the contacts on the
VATS chip and read the resistance, and substitute a standard resistor
shunted into the wires for the VATS if doing so helps in any way (like
to verify that it is disarmed while trying to figure out why the key
won't turn) so if you remove the ignition lock and turn the switch
manually, you still have to have the correct resistance present in that
circuit...I'm no good with cylinders, my experience is mostly limited to
pulling them out with a slide hammer prior to reposessing the car, but
that gets you nowhere with a VATS equipped system.

Dumb question, but the cylinder is not in a torque lock because he shut
it off with the wheels turned, is it?


--
jeffcoslacker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jeffcoslacker's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...?userid=219638
View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=621597

http://www.automotiveforums.com

In article >,
jeffcoslacker > wrote:

> I'm still a little lost. Does it have VATS or not? If so (square chip
> in key)

GM hasn't used VATS in about ten years.

PATS replaces VATS and works entirely different.