another grease question: bolt threads

Grumpy au Contraire wrote:
> If you lubricate bolts, torque specs will change to a lower setting.

That does seem to be the consensus of this discussion.

Grumpy au Contraire wrote:
> If you lubricate bolts, torque specs will change to a lower setting.

That does seem to be the consensus of this discussion.

I can supply you with some:

1.2 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
1.4 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
1.75 Kgf-m +/- 0.25
2.0 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
2.2 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
2.7 Kgf-m +/- 0.3
3.1 Kgf-m +/- 0.4
5.0 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
5.5 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
6.5 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
10.25 Kgf-m +/- 0.25 Steel

Note that these are transmission specs, probably taken from HES (Honda
Engineering Standards). All are for Honda (unspecified grade) steel bolts
into aluminum threads except where otherwise noted. These may or may not
apply to other applications for Honda and are meant to serve as guidelines
only. Unfortunately, I can't convert these to SAE specs, or into N-m.
Also, my $0.02 worth regarding torque of lubricated bolts.....
Oil or grease on your bolt will play havoc with accuracy of final torque. It
affects stretch as well. Many times have I seen steel bolts break off in
aluminum threads because our bolts had oil on them. How much is too much; I
couldn't say.
Doc

"Abeness" > wrote in message
...
> Caroline wrote:
> > The distinction I was attempting to draw is that this problem
> > of overtorquing spark plugs arguably is related to the fact that the
spark
> > plug threads are brand new, never been used.
>
> And because they have been precoated, acc. to the GM quote, presumably
> with a lubricant since the quote goes on to refer to the antiseize
> compound as "added insurance". I don't know that other types of new
> bolts are precoated. But I really know very little about bolts and
> threads...
>
> > Here (to be a total ass), but I flubbed this one.
>
> Mistakes happen, few admit them. No "total asshood" witnessed here. I
> should've specified "bolt torque expert". ;-))
>
> > to a site where someone had a lab that could measure bolt tension (not
for
> > the DIYer) and actually did some tests on bolts with and without lube.
>
> Could you post the link? I'd be interested in seeing it myself.
>
> > I suspect dealer and independent shop technicians do the same. Torque
> > wrenches are rarely broken out. Yet cars get repaired, and only once in
a
> > while does one here of a bolt not properly tightened.
>
> Yeah. I've tightened lots of bolts in my day, never used a torque
> wrench, and rarely had a problem. I bought a torque wrench for my Honda
> work because the aluminum block makes me nervous (had nice solid
> gas-guzzling steel blocks previously)--I expect the "feel" will have to
> be relearned for aluminum, so I'll go easy at first.
>
> I also wonder what the "wiggle room" is for the Honda torque specs. As
> you note, they specify a single value while others specify a range. How
> close to max supported torque are those specs? Probably only a Honda
> engineer would know.

I can supply you with some:

1.2 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
1.4 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
1.75 Kgf-m +/- 0.25
2.0 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
2.2 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
2.7 Kgf-m +/- 0.3
3.1 Kgf-m +/- 0.4
5.0 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
5.5 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
6.5 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
10.25 Kgf-m +/- 0.25 Steel

Note that these are transmission specs, probably taken from HES (Honda
Engineering Standards). All are for Honda (unspecified grade) steel bolts
into aluminum threads except where otherwise noted. These may or may not
apply to other applications for Honda and are meant to serve as guidelines
only. Unfortunately, I can't convert these to SAE specs, or into N-m.
Also, my $0.02 worth regarding torque of lubricated bolts.....
Oil or grease on your bolt will play havoc with accuracy of final torque. It
affects stretch as well. Many times have I seen steel bolts break off in
aluminum threads because our bolts had oil on them. How much is too much; I
couldn't say.
Doc

"Abeness" > wrote in message
...
> Caroline wrote:
> > The distinction I was attempting to draw is that this problem
> > of overtorquing spark plugs arguably is related to the fact that the
spark
> > plug threads are brand new, never been used.
>
> And because they have been precoated, acc. to the GM quote, presumably
> with a lubricant since the quote goes on to refer to the antiseize
> compound as "added insurance". I don't know that other types of new
> bolts are precoated. But I really know very little about bolts and
> threads...
>
> > Here (to be a total ass), but I flubbed this one.
>
> Mistakes happen, few admit them. No "total asshood" witnessed here. I
> should've specified "bolt torque expert". ;-))
>
> > to a site where someone had a lab that could measure bolt tension (not
for
> > the DIYer) and actually did some tests on bolts with and without lube.
>
> Could you post the link? I'd be interested in seeing it myself.
>
> > I suspect dealer and independent shop technicians do the same. Torque
> > wrenches are rarely broken out. Yet cars get repaired, and only once in
a
> > while does one here of a bolt not properly tightened.
>
> Yeah. I've tightened lots of bolts in my day, never used a torque
> wrench, and rarely had a problem. I bought a torque wrench for my Honda
> work because the aluminum block makes me nervous (had nice solid
> gas-guzzling steel blocks previously)--I expect the "feel" will have to
> be relearned for aluminum, so I'll go easy at first.
>
> I also wonder what the "wiggle room" is for the Honda torque specs. As
> you note, they specify a single value while others specify a range. How
> close to max supported torque are those specs? Probably only a Honda
> engineer would know.

Having said all of that, what is the concensus on tightening lugnuts with
alloy rims? How many times have you had lugnuts loosen after having been
remove to service a tire? It's a common problem with Honda alloys. Even to
the point where service shops include a disclaimer in their invoices to
inform you that lugnuts on alloy rims are known to loosen up after 25 miles
or so of driving, even after having been properly torqued, and recommend
that you check them periodically. My experience tells me to lean on that
wrench; damn the rotors!
Doc

> > > I suspect dealer and independent shop technicians do the same. Torque
> > > wrenches are rarely broken out. Yet cars get repaired, and only once
> > > in a while does one here of a bolt not properly tightened.
> >
> > That's because they tighten until it "feels right". It's learned by
> > experience.
>
> I believe this "experience" of which you speak has no relation to actually
> testing the feel of, say, 26 ft-lbs. of torque. Instead, it's "Feels
tight.
> Must be right." I have a vague recollection of a study that showed what
> numerical torque people hoped to achieve and what they actually achieved
> were widely different.
>
> One data point: The many anecdotes about lug nuts not torqued to spec, but
> to what the operator felt was right, and the warped rotor etc. outcomes of
> this.
>
> Sorry, but I had a chance to watch a gaggle of shadetree mechanics
> (self-decribed "experts") over the course of several weeks not long ago,
> and watching them wrap their ego around their wrong-headedness was
> fascinating.
>
> (For the record, I don't find a shadetree mechanic approach here at the
> group, for the most part. And yup, I still find the typical, say five
years
> of experience, shadetree mechanic smarter than an MD. Which is a comment
on
> doctors... ;-) )
>
> > I do the same with anything I can't get a torque wrench
>
> Yup. And I don't lose sleep over it when I do. But this is after years of
> experience.
>
> OTOH, who here with 20 years experience with tightening bolts has never
> stripped one or sheared off a head? Or had one come loose?
>
> > on or if I don't
> > know what the torque should be.
>
> These days when this happens I use the various tables available for
> automotive fasteners.
>
>

Having said all of that, what is the concensus on tightening lugnuts with
alloy rims? How many times have you had lugnuts loosen after having been
remove to service a tire? It's a common problem with Honda alloys. Even to
the point where service shops include a disclaimer in their invoices to
inform you that lugnuts on alloy rims are known to loosen up after 25 miles
or so of driving, even after having been properly torqued, and recommend
that you check them periodically. My experience tells me to lean on that
wrench; damn the rotors!
Doc

> > > I suspect dealer and independent shop technicians do the same. Torque
> > > wrenches are rarely broken out. Yet cars get repaired, and only once
> > > in a while does one here of a bolt not properly tightened.
> >
> > That's because they tighten until it "feels right". It's learned by
> > experience.
>
> I believe this "experience" of which you speak has no relation to actually
> testing the feel of, say, 26 ft-lbs. of torque. Instead, it's "Feels
tight.
> Must be right." I have a vague recollection of a study that showed what
> numerical torque people hoped to achieve and what they actually achieved
> were widely different.
>
> One data point: The many anecdotes about lug nuts not torqued to spec, but
> to what the operator felt was right, and the warped rotor etc. outcomes of
> this.
>
> Sorry, but I had a chance to watch a gaggle of shadetree mechanics
> (self-decribed "experts") over the course of several weeks not long ago,
> and watching them wrap their ego around their wrong-headedness was
> fascinating.
>
> (For the record, I don't find a shadetree mechanic approach here at the
> group, for the most part. And yup, I still find the typical, say five
years
> of experience, shadetree mechanic smarter than an MD. Which is a comment
on
> doctors... ;-) )
>
> > I do the same with anything I can't get a torque wrench
>
> Yup. And I don't lose sleep over it when I do. But this is after years of
> experience.
>
> OTOH, who here with 20 years experience with tightening bolts has never
> stripped one or sheared off a head? Or had one come loose?
>
> > on or if I don't
> > know what the torque should be.
>
> These days when this happens I use the various tables available for
> automotive fasteners.
>
>

Thanks, Doc.

Thanks, Doc.

> I also wonder what the "wiggle room" is for the Honda torque specs. As
> you note, they specify a single value while others specify a range. How
> close to max supported torque are those specs? Probably only a Honda
> engineer would know.

....
> I can supply you with some, as applied to automatic transmissions:
>
> 1.2 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
> 1.4 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
> 1.75 Kgf-m +/- 0.25
> 2.0 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
> 2.2 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
> 2.7 Kgf-m +/- 0.3
> 3.1 Kgf-m +/- 0.4
> 5.0 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
> 5.5 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
> 6.5 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
> 10.25 Kgf-m +/- 0.25 Steel
>
> Note that these are transmission specs, probably taken from HES (Honda
> Engineering Standards). All are for Honda (unspecified grade) steel bolts
> into aluminum threads except where otherwise noted. These may or may not
> apply to other applications for Honda and are meant to serve as guidelines
> only. Unfortunately, I can't convert these to SAE specs, or into N-m.
> Also, my $0.02 worth regarding torque of lubricated bolts.....
> Oil or grease on your bolt will play havoc with accuracy of final torque.
It
> affects stretch as well. Many times have I seen steel bolts break off in
> aluminum threads because our bolts had oil on them. How much is too much;
I
> couldn't say.
> Doc

> "Abeness" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Caroline wrote:
> > > The distinction I was attempting to draw is that this problem
> > > of overtorquing spark plugs arguably is related to the fact that the
> spark
> > > plug threads are brand new, never been used.
> >
> > And because they have been precoated, acc. to the GM quote, presumably
> > with a lubricant since the quote goes on to refer to the antiseize
> > compound as "added insurance". I don't know that other types of new
> > bolts are precoated. But I really know very little about bolts and
> > threads...
> >
> > > Here (to be a total ass), but I flubbed this one.
> >
> > Mistakes happen, few admit them. No "total asshood" witnessed here. I
> > should've specified "bolt torque expert". ;-))
> >
> > > to a site where someone had a lab that could measure bolt tension (not
> for
> > > the DIYer) and actually did some tests on bolts with and without lube.
> >
> > Could you post the link? I'd be interested in seeing it myself.
> >
> > > I suspect dealer and independent shop technicians do the same. Torque
> > > wrenches are rarely broken out. Yet cars get repaired, and only once
in
> a
> > > while does one here of a bolt not properly tightened.
> >
> > Yeah. I've tightened lots of bolts in my day, never used a torque
> > wrench, and rarely had a problem. I bought a torque wrench for my Honda
> > work because the aluminum block makes me nervous (had nice solid
> > gas-guzzling steel blocks previously)--I expect the "feel" will have to
> > be relearned for aluminum, so I'll go easy at first.
> >
> > I also wonder what the "wiggle room" is for the Honda torque specs. As
> > you note, they specify a single value while others specify a range. How
> > close to max supported torque are those specs? Probably only a Honda
> > engineer would know.
>
>

> I also wonder what the "wiggle room" is for the Honda torque specs. As
> you note, they specify a single value while others specify a range. How
> close to max supported torque are those specs? Probably only a Honda
> engineer would know.

....
> I can supply you with some, as applied to automatic transmissions:
>
> 1.2 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
> 1.4 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
> 1.75 Kgf-m +/- 0.25
> 2.0 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
> 2.2 Kgf-m +/- 0.2
> 2.7 Kgf-m +/- 0.3
> 3.1 Kgf-m +/- 0.4
> 5.0 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
> 5.5 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
> 6.5 Kgf-m +/- 0.5
> 10.25 Kgf-m +/- 0.25 Steel
>
> Note that these are transmission specs, probably taken from HES (Honda
> Engineering Standards). All are for Honda (unspecified grade) steel bolts
> into aluminum threads except where otherwise noted. These may or may not
> apply to other applications for Honda and are meant to serve as guidelines
> only. Unfortunately, I can't convert these to SAE specs, or into N-m.
> Also, my $0.02 worth regarding torque of lubricated bolts.....
> Oil or grease on your bolt will play havoc with accuracy of final torque.
It
> affects stretch as well. Many times have I seen steel bolts break off in
> aluminum threads because our bolts had oil on them. How much is too much;
I
> couldn't say.
> Doc

> "Abeness" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Caroline wrote:
> > > The distinction I was attempting to draw is that this problem
> > > of overtorquing spark plugs arguably is related to the fact that the
> spark
> > > plug threads are brand new, never been used.
> >
> > And because they have been precoated, acc. to the GM quote, presumably
> > with a lubricant since the quote goes on to refer to the antiseize
> > compound as "added insurance". I don't know that other types of new
> > bolts are precoated. But I really know very little about bolts and
> > threads...
> >
> > > Here (to be a total ass), but I flubbed this one.
> >
> > Mistakes happen, few admit them. No "total asshood" witnessed here. I
> > should've specified "bolt torque expert". ;-))
> >
> > > to a site where someone had a lab that could measure bolt tension (not
> for
> > > the DIYer) and actually did some tests on bolts with and without lube.
> >
> > Could you post the link? I'd be interested in seeing it myself.
> >
> > > I suspect dealer and independent shop technicians do the same. Torque
> > > wrenches are rarely broken out. Yet cars get repaired, and only once
in
> a
> > > while does one here of a bolt not properly tightened.
> >
> > Yeah. I've tightened lots of bolts in my day, never used a torque
> > wrench, and rarely had a problem. I bought a torque wrench for my Honda
> > work because the aluminum block makes me nervous (had nice solid
> > gas-guzzling steel blocks previously)--I expect the "feel" will have to
> > be relearned for aluminum, so I'll go easy at first.
> >
> > I also wonder what the "wiggle room" is for the Honda torque specs. As
> > you note, they specify a single value while others specify a range. How
> > close to max supported torque are those specs? Probably only a Honda
> > engineer would know.
>
>