Gas prices forcing me to look for better MPG, questions on saturns

My wife does a lot of driving around, given the high gas prices, I'm
looking to buy something easier on gas than my suburban or Blazer. 2
years ago I thought about saturns, looked at auto trader and saw that
once the cars get about 60k miles, their values drop considerably.
Did a search tonight on saturns and they are still cheaper to buy than
other small cars (same years / mileage etc). Any thoughts as to why?
Any years / models / motors / transmissions I should avoid?

Thanks

PS - I am a chevy man, and would like to stick with chevy's.
97 Suburban
94 S-10 Blazer
74 Chevy Truck

In article >, mgoodman1
@home.com says...
> My wife does a lot of driving around, given the high gas prices, I'm
> looking to buy something easier on gas than my suburban or Blazer. 2
> years ago I thought about saturns, looked at auto trader and saw that
> once the cars get about 60k miles, their values drop considerably.
$500 bucks and up timing belt servicing begins for most. 80k mile tires
near end of life. People dont want to put money into a car that they
just bought.
> Any years / models / motors / transmissions I should avoid?
Pre OBDII / L-series / SOHC,3.0,&3.5 / CVT Trans are to be avoided.
Nothing wrong with Pre OBD II cars, just old tech.
> Thanks
>
> PS - I am a chevy man, and would like to stick with chevy's.
> 97 Suburban
> 94 S-10 Blazer
> 74 Chevy Truck
Not sure which Saturn you are looking for. As long as you are not
towing, a far better alternative to that Blazer is a 4cyl Vue. Avoid all
CVT transmissions, they are as bad as owning a car with a timing belt...
The Ecotec is used in almost all GM makes including Chevy. The Ecotec is
to 4 cylinders as what the SBC was to V8's. Very dependable and if need
be cheap & easy to work on. As for the S-series the 1.9L Twincams and
TAAT transmissions have their quirks now and then but they are easily
remedied. Forums like Saturnfans.com will give you the most reliable
information without the distortions and misfacts of irrational trolls
which there has been a rash of here lately.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:41:55 -0500, wrote:

>My wife does a lot of driving around, given the high gas prices, I'm
>looking to buy something easier on gas than my suburban or Blazer. 2
>years ago I thought about saturns, looked at auto trader and saw that
>once the cars get about 60k miles, their values drop considerably.
>Did a search tonight on saturns and they are still cheaper to buy than
>other small cars (same years / mileage etc). Any thoughts as to why?
>Any years / models / motors / transmissions I should avoid?
>
>Thanks
>
>PS - I am a chevy man, and would like to stick with chevy's.
>97 Suburban
>94 S-10 Blazer
>74 Chevy Truck


Some of the older Saturns (pre 2000) were pretty sturdy as GM was
still trying to make a name for them but recently they seem to be
cutting a few corners. I have a old 1500 89 4x4 burb that I have had
since new and I get a honest 18 to 19 MPG out of it on trip (that is
all we use it for these days) and this is accurate because it has a 40
gallon tank and I run more than 400 mile before a refill it and
sometime up to 600 miles and still have some reserve. (I never use 87
in it though as it runs much better on better gas) What ever vehicle
you choose, the bigger the crossection and the more it weighs the
greater the potentail for lower MPG. Tires size and type plays a big
roll too as you want stock type tires running at or near max pressure.
THe new blazers with the I6 in them seem to not do to bad on fuel and
they run well too. Stay away for v8 powered SUV if you are really
looking to gain a few MPG regardless of what EPA sticker says for MPG
(they use hand build and tuned cars with 93 octane and every cheat in
the book to get some of those ratings)
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com

> Some of the older Saturns (pre 2000) were pretty sturdy as GM was
> still trying to make a name for them but recently they seem to be
> cutting a few corners. I have a old 1500 89 4x4 burb that I have had
> since new and I get a honest 18 to 19 MPG out of it on trip (that is
> all we use it for these days) and this is accurate because it has a 40
> gallon tank and I run more than 400 mile before a refill it and
> sometime up to 600 miles and still have some reserve. (I never use 87
> in it though as it runs much better on better gas) What ever vehicle
> you choose, the bigger the crossection and the more it weighs the
> greater the potentail for lower MPG. Tires size and type plays a big
> roll too as you want stock type tires running at or near max pressure.
> THe new blazers with the I6 in them seem to not do to bad on fuel and
> they run well too. Stay away for v8 powered SUV if you are really
> looking to gain a few MPG regardless of what EPA sticker says for MPG
> (they use hand build and tuned cars with 93 octane and every cheat in
> the book to get some of those ratings)
> -----------------
> The SnoMan
> www.thesnoman.com

I have a 97 sl2 and my son has a 96sl2 mine is manual and his is auto.
both cars have over 125k miles and both run like champs..
both cars get about 25-27mpg in the city and 37-42 on the highway.

On 29 Apr 2006 05:18:12 -0700, "
> wrote:

>I have a 97 sl2 and my son has a 96sl2 mine is manual and his is auto.
>both cars have over 125k miles and both run like champs..
>both cars get about 25-27mpg in the city and 37-42 on the highway.


My daughter has a 97 SC2 with 118K on it and she is getting about 28
to 30 MPG with it in urban driving right now. It runs well. The mid to
late 90's saturn were about when they reached their peak in quality as
they even used a expensive aytomatic with a spin on filter until 2000
when they replaced it with a cheaper design. GM put a lot of effort in
making a name for the car in 90's and now they seem to have lost a
good bit of that effort and drive on the newest models to the tune of
cutting costs.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com

My 92 SL1 will be hitting 473,000 km (295,000 mi) today on the way
home. Most of my work commute is highway and I like to mix it up with
some country side driving on the way home. I regularly get between
37-42 mpg throughout the year.
The engine runs great, no problems with it (of course now that I said
that it will blow up on the way home today).

Alex

"navaidstech" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My 92 SL1 will be hitting 473,000 km (295,000 mi) today on the way
> home. Most of my work commute is highway and I like to mix it up with
> some country side driving on the way home. I regularly get between
> 37-42 mpg throughout the year.
> The engine runs great, no problems with it (of course now that I said
> that it will blow up on the way home today).
>
> Alex

Congratulations, and 'nicely done'. You are obviously operating in an
efficient manner. Can we have a little more information?
Have you needed to open up the engine?
Timing chain?
Oil consumption, type and change interval?
Clutch? (fuel economy makes me assume manual trans)
Front suspension, steering and half driveshafts/CV joints?
Radiator, waterpump, belt tensioner, heater core, coolant changes?
Alternator?
Cruise rpm? and normal operating range and normal shift points?
Drivers door hinges? seat? air leaks & wind noise?

regards

Thank you!!
I'm very happy with my vehicle and I'll try to keep it going until it
falls apart or dies altogether.

To answer your questions:
1. Never opened up the engine. Well....I opened the valve cover a few
months back to change oil seals on the valves, and refurbish the
lifters. Original chain.
2. Oil consumption...at last change it I drained 3.5 quarts out of 4. I
use Castrol Syntec 5-50 and change it every 6,000 miles (about 4
months). Did not add any oil in between changes.
3. Clutch? Yes.... original too.
4. Front suspension: last year changed the control arms as the
balljoints were gone. I changed the tie rod ends a couple of times. I'm
looking to change the inner tie rod this weeked on the passenger side
as it is gone. I repacked the CV joint on the driver side last year
(found the boot torn). All halfshafts, bearings, knuckles, calipers,
are original.
5. Radiator - original. Clean as a whistle. Changed the water pump a
couple of years back. Belt tensioner is original. Heater core -
original, two coolant changes so far. (oops! yeah, I know). Alternator
has been changed a couple of years back after 415,000 km (260,000
miles)
6. Cruise RPM - I tend to keep it under 2500 rpm. I'm in no rush to get
to work so I take it easy. Normal shift points, I can't tell you what
speed or rpm but I would guess around 2500-3000 rpm. Never use engine
brakes.
7. Driver door hinges are all good. I swapped out the seats with the
passenger side. Couple of years back a metal brace inside the seat
broke off and I had it welded. Once welded, I put it on the passenger
side. I get a bit of wind noise coming from the rear.

Things that I found bad with the car:

1. Rust on the bottom of the passenger door opening. It's pretty bad,
noticed it too late.
2. Rust at the bottom on the widow sill (vertical part) on both rear
passenger doors.
3. Alternator is a pain to get at.
4. There is still some rain water trapped in the trunk lid a while
after the rain. You open the trunk and guess where all the water ends
up?
5. The driver and passenger side door trim on the inside. The clips
have broken off and the darn thing rattles when I'm stopped at the
lights.
6. Headliner fabric has separated (probably common to all cars this
age)
7. Lost the air dam a while ago. Springs must have rusted and let go.
Got a new one since.
8. I have disconnected the seatbelt motor and do up the belt manually.
The grease in there seizes up the traveller in the winter. Tried
regreasing and it was never same since. So I pulled out the fuse.
9. All doors take considerable more force to close and latch properly.
On top of it they make a weird clunking noise when they engage. I'm not
saying that I have to slam the doors but it takes a bit more force
than, say, my wife's Vibe. The doors have been this way since new.

These are things off the top of my head. I don't keep a list, so it is
moreless complete.

Generally I'm happy with the car. It hasn't given me any serious
trouble. As mentioned before, I get good mileage out of it and at last
check I got about 43 mpg (51 miles per Canadian gallon). My daily drive
consists of 75% higway, 25% countryside roads. I put 77 miles per day
on the car and fill it up every 5-6 days.

If anyone has any pointers or suggestions on the issues I mentioned, I
would be more than happy to hear you out.

Alex

"navaidstech" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thank you!!
> I'm very happy with my vehicle and I'll try to keep it going until it
> falls apart or dies altogether.
>
> To answer your questions:
> 1. Never opened up the engine. Well....I opened the valve cover a few
> months back to change oil seals on the valves, and refurbish the
> lifters. Original chain.

Why did you do the valve seals? I only ask because you say next that you do
not add oil between changes. What do you mean "refurbish" the lifters?
Were they making noise? Did you use air or ??? to hold the valves so you
could change the seals?

> 2. Oil consumption...at last change it I drained 3.5 quarts out of 4. I
> use Castrol Syntec 5-50 and change it every 6,000 miles (about 4
> months). Did not add any oil in between changes.

So much for those who claim all Saturns burn oil after 200k km. Have you
always used this synthetic oil? and this change interval?

> 3. Clutch? Yes.... original too.

Nicely done, you must have good starting and shifting technique.

> 4. Front suspension: last year changed the control arms as the
> balljoints were gone. I changed the tie rod ends a couple of times. I'm
> looking to change the inner tie rod this weeked on the passenger side
> as it is gone. I repacked the CV joint on the driver side last year
> (found the boot torn). All halfshafts, bearings, knuckles, calipers,
> are original.

Catching the torn boot problem shows good inspection habits.

> 5. Radiator - original. Clean as a whistle. Changed the water pump a
> couple of years back. Belt tensioner is original. Heater core -
> original, two coolant changes so far. (oops! yeah, I know). Alternator
> has been changed a couple of years back after 415,000 km (260,000
> miles)
> 6. Cruise RPM - I tend to keep it under 2500 rpm. I'm in no rush to get
> to work so I take it easy. Normal shift points, I can't tell you what
> speed or rpm but I would guess around 2500-3000 rpm. Never use engine
> brakes.

My guess is that not making 'spirited' downshifts to maximize engine braking
has contributed to your long clutch life. I would also suggest that your
low rpm operation has contributed to your good engine service wear and low
oil consumption.

> 7. Driver door hinges are all good. I swapped out the seats with the
> passenger side. Couple of years back a metal brace inside the seat
> broke off and I had it welded. Once welded, I put it on the passenger
> side. I get a bit of wind noise coming from the rear.
>
> Things that I found bad with the car:
>
> 1. Rust on the bottom of the passenger door opening. It's pretty bad,
> noticed it too late.
> 2. Rust at the bottom on the widow sill (vertical part) on both rear
> passenger doors.
> 3. Alternator is a pain to get at.
> 4. There is still some rain water trapped in the trunk lid a while
> after the rain. You open the trunk and guess where all the water ends
> up?

I would suggest you try to find and fix this problem since it is probably
causing corrosion in your trunk. Could you have a blocked drain?

> 5. The driver and passenger side door trim on the inside. The clips
> have broken off and the darn thing rattles when I'm stopped at the
> lights.
> 6. Headliner fabric has separated (probably common to all cars this
> age)

Suggest you replace the clips or use 'shoe goo' or other urethane glue. It
is amazing stuff.

> 7. Lost the air dam a while ago. Springs must have rusted and let go.
> Got a new one since.

I have had a hard time keeping this dam in place but have not noticed any
overheating problems operating without it. It will help control gravel
damage. I am guessing that you are also in Canada so maybe this dam is only
required for cooling in a hotter climates but I have not had any overheating
even on the hottest of Canadian summer. I did fasten a piece of heavy mesh
screen in front of my rad which does help to protect the rad. I have
noticed a lot of gravel chiping on the front of my oil pan which I am afraid
may allow pan corrosion which others here have reported. I have used heavy
oil concrete foundation waterproofing coating to patch damage to the
undercoating under the car. It seems to be doing the job and I will be
puting some on the front of my oil pan to protect and prevent corrosion. I
do not know if this may help your corrosion areas, I did not purchase this
foundation coating specially for the car, I was just doing some concrete
work and it seemed like a good thing to do with the surplus.

> 8. I have disconnected the seatbelt motor and do up the belt manually.
> The grease in there seizes up the traveller in the winter. Tried
> regreasing and it was never same since. So I pulled out the fuse.
> 9. All doors take considerable more force to close and latch properly.
> On top of it they make a weird clunking noise when they engage. I'm not
> saying that I have to slam the doors but it takes a bit more force
> than, say, my wife's Vibe. The doors have been this way since new.

I have one set of hinges on the drivers door which I have often tried but
been unable to lube properly. They creak and groan and increase the
operating effort. I have purchased new hinges (~$50/pr) but have not
installed them yet. I did once have a car where stiff hinges caused a
flexing of the door frame that resulted in cracks.that did require repair
and reinforcing.

> These are things off the top of my head. I don't keep a list, so it is
> moreless complete.
>
> Generally I'm happy with the car. It hasn't given me any serious
> trouble. As mentioned before, I get good mileage out of it and at last
> check I got about 43 mpg (51 miles per Canadian gallon). My daily drive
> consists of 75% higway, 25% countryside roads. I put 77 miles per day
> on the car and fill it up every 5-6 days.

This is very similar to our operation. We have '96 SW1 and have aveaged 42
mi/impgal (6.8 lt/100km) since new, total combined city/highway all season.
On the highway my wife gets 49 mi/impgal (5.9 lt/100km) but I never seem to
do that well (I do have a heavier foot). I do notice that if I leave the
roof rack in place it uses about 1 lt/100km more fuel.

> If anyone has any pointers or suggestions on the issues I mentioned, I
> would be more than happy to hear you out.
>
> Alex

You do not mention any exhaust work, if you are still on the original
exhaust it is a good example of the better materials used in current factory
auto exhaust. We have had failures of the muffler mounting strap due to
corrosion on both of our cars. The rest of the system seems to be quite
corrosion resistant.

You have had very good service from your car, I hope we can do as well. I
am guessing you also get good service life from your brakes and tires.
These cars are now getting old enough that they will be showing up in the
discount 'pick your part' auto wreckers so we may be able to keep them
economically serviceable for some time. I am also a believer in buying new
and using carefully until full service life is over. These cars are now
showing up in the very cheap used market and will soon be such good value
(cheap) that it will be worth buying a good one just to use for parts. We
have SW bodies which are very usable but use the most of the same parts as
the sedans. My observation has always been that nothing you have a spare
part for ever breaks!

I note your handle, are the navaids you tech aviation or
automotive/trucking/marine GPS systems?

Good luck, YMMV

> Why did you do the valve seals? I only ask because you say next that you do
> not add oil between changes. What do you mean "refurbish" the lifters?

I replaced the seals on spec. I noticed the spark plugs were getting
gummed with burned oil causing the engine to operate intermittently at
times.
When I say "refurbish", I mean take the lifters out, dunk them in a
degreaser solution overnight, take them apart and free up the little
pistons inside them. I found 7 out of 8 lifters seized.

> Were they making noise? Did you use air or ??? to hold the valves so you
> could change the seals?

I tried air but didn't have much luck with that so I opted to use a
string. I would bring the piston down, pack the cylinder with string,
then bring the piston up to push the string against the valves. Worked
like a charm.




> So much for those who claim all Saturns burn oil after 200k km. Have you
> always used this synthetic oil? and this change interval?

Actually, before the valve seals, I drained 2.75 quarts. After the
seal job, I drained 3.5.
I've been using synthetic since the car was 110,000 km old and always
do it every 10,000 km. I found that Costco has the best price for 5-50
Syntec.


>
> > 3. Clutch? Yes.... original too.
>
> Nicely done, you must have good starting and shifting technique.

Yeah. I avoid jackrabbit starts and try to shift as smoothly as
possible. Sometimes you can't even tell when I shift, I have it down to
an art now. hi hi.
BTW, I checked the RPM gauge on the way from work today and it seems
that I shift around 2300 for the first 3 gears and then about 2100-2200
for the last two.

>
> Catching the torn boot problem shows good inspection habits.

Well, to this day I'm not sure if it was torn or was it something I did
to it while working in the area. Oh well, it was a good exercise
nonetheless.

>
> My guess is that not making 'spirited' downshifts to maximize engine braking
> has contributed to your long clutch life. I would also suggest that your
> low rpm operation has contributed to your good engine service wear and low
> oil consumption.
>

That's exactly what I'm thinking as well. It's a habit I have developed
over the years and it seems to be paying off.


>
> I would suggest you try to find and fix this problem since it is probably
> causing corrosion in your trunk. Could you have a blocked drain?
>

This has been happening since the car was new. The water collects
somewhere in the trunk lid and when you pop the trunk open it gushes
into the trunk.

>
> Suggest you replace the clips or use 'shoe goo' or other urethane glue. It
> is amazing stuff.
>
Yeah...the clips are fine, it's just that the plastic thingies broke
right off and are now stuck in the mouting holes. I'll try this super
duper glue I got from my Dad. It works wonders.

> I have had a hard time keeping this dam in place but have not noticed any
> overheating problems operating without it. It will help control gravel

My car was overheating last couple of summers. Even in +9C weather the
needle would swing past the middle, something that has never happened
before. I kinda suspected the air dam but was convinced that my rad was
plugged. I cleaned it with a weak CLR solution (yes, I know don't say
it). Basically I circulated this solution through the rad for 30
minutes or so. Then I checked the capacity, it seemed OK (I think 1.6
litres), but the car would STILL overheat.
Interestingly, the car would never attain its operating temperature in
the winter. The needle would stay well below the centre. I think this
was caused by the air rushing past the oil pan and cooling the oil down
enough to cool the engine once pumped back up again.
Soon as I installed the air dam....everything was normal once again.


> damage. I am guessing that you are also in Canada so maybe this dam is only
> required for cooling in a hotter climates but I have not had any overheating
> even on the hottest of Canadian summer. I did fasten a piece of heavy mesh

Yes, I'm in Mississauga. Just west of Toronto.

> screen in front of my rad which does help to protect the rad. I have

Oh yeah. I need to replace mine. I did that a few years back.

> noticed a lot of gravel chiping on the front of my oil pan which I am afraid
> may allow pan corrosion which others here have reported. I have used heavy
> oil concrete foundation waterproofing coating to patch damage to the
> undercoating under the car. It seems to be doing the job and I will be
> puting some on the front of my oil pan to protect and prevent corrosion. I
> do not know if this may help your corrosion areas, I did not purchase this
> foundation coating specially for the car, I was just doing some concrete
> work and it seemed like a good thing to do with the surplus.

That's very interesting. I'll take your idea to heart and most likely
end up doing the same. It's been a while since I checked down there but
the pan sure needs some protection.

> I have one set of hinges on the drivers door which I have often tried but
> been unable to lube properly. They creak and groan and increase the
> operating effort. I have purchased new hinges (~$50/pr) but have not
> installed them yet. I did once have a car where stiff hinges caused a
> flexing of the door frame that resulted in cracks.that did require repair
> and reinforcing.
>

Funny thing is that the motorized belts were one of the selling points
when I bought the car eons ago. That and the price. Over the years,
I've grown sick of the belts, especially when they were so sluggish it
would take them forever to retract.

> This is very similar to our operation. We have '96 SW1 and have aveaged 42
> mi/impgal (6.8 lt/100km) since new, total combined city/highway all season.
> On the highway my wife gets 49 mi/impgal (5.9 lt/100km) but I never seem to
> do that well (I do have a heavier foot). I do notice that if I leave the
> roof rack in place it uses about 1 lt/100km more fuel.
>

Yes, that all makes sense. Your wife sure does pretty good with
5.9lt/100 for sure. I'm yet to find an optimum speed where the fuel
consumption is the best.

> You do not mention any exhaust work, if you are still on the original
> exhaust it is a good example of the better materials used in current factory
> auto exhaust. We have had failures of the muffler mounting strap due to
> corrosion on both of our cars. The rest of the system seems to be quite
> corrosion resistant.
>

Sorry about that. I'm on my fourth muffler now. The original one lasted
6 or 7 years. Susequent mufflers failed as you have suggested, right
where the straps are.
The last muffler I put on this car is a cheapo one. I coated it with a
few coats of heat resistant paint from Canadian Tire to extend its life
- so far so good. Fingers crossed.
But you are right, the rest of the system is original. I even went to
get it replaced but the mechanic told me to save my bucks and don't
bother.
I should also mention the cat is original as well and it passes the
emission tests every two years.

> You have had very good service from your car, I hope we can do as well. I
> am guessing you also get good service life from your brakes and tires.

Hmmm... I'm probably on my fourth or fifth set of pads, third set of
rotors and fourth set of tires, second set of shoes (replaced last
year) but the drums are still original and STILL within spec on
diameter.

> These cars are now getting old enough that they will be showing up in the
> discount 'pick your part' auto wreckers so we may be able to keep them

Oh yes! I visit my local junkyard on a regular basis!

> economically serviceable for some time. I am also a believer in buying new
> and using carefully until full service life is over. These cars are now
> showing up in the very cheap used market and will soon be such good value
> (cheap) that it will be worth buying a good one just to use for parts. We
> have SW bodies which are very usable but use the most of the same parts as
> the sedans. My observation has always been that nothing you have a spare
> part for ever breaks!
>

You are absolutely correct. I never have any trouble finding parts for
this car, either aftermarket or at a junk yard. I keep a few parts that
I collect during my junkyard trips at hand just in case....you never
know.
I agree with you on buying one just for spares. My Dad actually picked
up a 95 SL1 from a junkyard for $700. It would have been a perfect
spares car for me, but he fixed it up and now he drives it. Not sure
how much longer though, it burns oil like there is no tomorrow (yes, we
changed oil seals on the valves).
If he decides to get rid of it, I already have a list of things to take
off it for my car.

> I note your handle, are the navaids you tech aviation or
> automotive/trucking/marine GPS systems?
>

Yes, I'm a navaids tech working for Nav Canada at the Hamilton Airport.
That's my daily commute Mississauga-Hamilton-MIssissauga = 125 clicks!


Whereabouts are you located? I don't even know your name....

Alex

> Good luck, YMMV